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The New Pan Am

Sat Dec 11, 1999 11:11 am

Pan Am is back with new owners and a limited flight schedule. I've heard a lot of huff about this from former employees of the original Pan Am. Any thoughts on this?

RE: The New Pan Am

Sat Dec 11, 1999 11:17 am

Yah, they fly 7 727-200s (hush kitted) between:

PSM (Portsmouth, NH)
SFB (Sanford, FL)
Gary, Indiana (Not Sure Of The Code)

Jack M
Das Flugzeug
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Sat Dec 11, 1999 3:22 pm

I've also seen Pan Am 727s at Newark during the past few months.

RE: The New Pan Am

Sat Dec 11, 1999 4:01 pm

The new PanAm is an absolute joke. People say that Southwest has brought down overall standards in the industry but the new PanAm is disgracing its own former self and its rich history around the world.

I can't imagine they are making much money either.....

Das And HZ

Sat Dec 11, 1999 5:11 pm

Das- You probably saw Pan Am at EWR because they operate a charter airline as well as a scheduled airline.

HZ- Let's give Pan Am a chance. Their goal is to serve large markets at underused airports. I forget who I talked to on this group, but they said Pan Am has had pretty darn good capacity since their restart.


RE: Das And HZ

Sat Dec 11, 1999 5:40 pm

I don't think Pan Am ever had a fighting chance. With the industry the way that it is, it is virtually impossible for an airline to compete head to head with the major carriers as Pan Am tried to do with its first "comeback" circa 1996 using 727's, 737-400's, and a few A300's. The major airlines can simply and easily undercut or at least match a startup's fares, a loss they can easily absorb but for the startup can be devastating. The only way an airline can begin to challenge the supremacy of the majors is with SIGNIFICANT finances (for example JetBlue) that can survive the various ups and downs of the business (more of the latter at least at the beginning).

Now Pan Am is going for the "niche" market currently occupied by airlines such as Midwest Express meaning superior quality service and one class (first) configuration. At the same time, they are trying to mimic your average startup carrier by using underutilized airports such as Gary (instead of ORD/MDW) and Sanford (instead of MCO). Its a rather strange combination by any standard. Very few of the high yield business traffic will want to use such out of the way airports. Also, Orlando is not your typical business destination which makes the luxury airline status sought by Pan Am all the more puzzling.

I can't realistically see how they will ever see significant profitability using the current tactics. They may succeed for a while operating as they do on the margin.....but beyond that I don't see a long term presence for them. In all fairness, they have done an excellent job restoring the old 727's with hush-kits and retrofitted wingtips as well as completely refurbished interiors. But I think some new strategy is in order but like I said it is very difficult to sustain long term operations no matter what strategy a small startup chooses. Thus I predict Pan Am will not survive and there is very limited potential for growth. Without growth, they will not survive. The market will edge them out in the end as will SWA, not to mention ATA, and other 2nd-tier carriers that also operate from the midwest. Their future seems very "up in the air" (so to speak).

People will not place such high esteem on such a small-potatoes outfit. That is why I called them a "disgrace" to the noble Pan Am heritage. I was a little harsh admittedly, but the difference between the once glorious, noble Pan Am clippers and their modern day descendants could hardly be more apparent. I don't think Pan Am II has much of a future.
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 12, 1999 12:43 am

Well, give Pan Am a chance. Maybe they'll manage to make a whole transcontinental network flying from secundairy airports. I checked their site and having long flights and hot meals for less than $200 return-trip looks nice. If the airports they fly have good transport to nearby cities, I and I think many others would like to make use of them.
Just starting with 3 cities maybe has more sense than competing the majors by starting with too much capacity.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?


Sun Dec 12, 1999 2:43 am

Actually, this is Pan Am III.

Pan Am II was the one with the A300s and 737-400s that also owned Carnival Airlines. This is an even smaller start up, however this time with scheduled service. I don't think Pan Am II had scheduled service.

When you say that Pan Am III is a discrase to the Pan Am name, yopu're proabaly right, but they are only like Pan Am I because of the name and the paint scheme. Everything is differnent. Come on, Pan Am I didn't suceed in a day, I'm sure it started out like this too.

I guess having Pan Am III being so horrible than just having the Pan Am name die off completley.

Jack M
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:33 am

HI! Actually Pan Am II did have scheduled service, they started out with some A-300 flights i think to/from JFK and the carribean. Then they merged with Carnival and took over all there sceduled routes mainly form the northeast to florida...Well, thats all i had to say!
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?


Sun Dec 12, 1999 6:19 am

I'm sorry for giving you the wrong info. I just don't recall Pan Am II having scheduled service.

Jack M
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 12, 1999 6:29 am

Thats ok, i even have the timetable so...they had a pretty big itenarary...tons of flights, but low frequency on there routes.
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 12, 1999 7:05 am

I flew Pan Am II on four occasions, both before and after the merger. My first flight was the best, JFK-MIA on the airline's first A300, N861PA Clipper America. The service was fantastic, and the fare was unbelieveably cheap. I guess thats why they eventually went ut of business. When fares are $87 o/w and you fly a big bus 60% full, its tough to make money! My return flight was actually on a chartered USAir Shuttle 727-200. Apparantly, the airline VASTLY oversold my flight, and needed extra lift. When 1 A300 was scheduled MIA-JFK, eventually 3 flights(all on time amazingly went out). One was the Airbus, another was a 727-200(N258US) which Nationsair operated for PA in PA colors, and the third was my flight, which was operated by USShuttly a/c and crews. Those roomy leather seats were nice for the 3 1/2 hour flight.

My other two experiences were transcons. I flew JFK-LAX on A300 N864PA Clipper Defiance, and the return on her sistership 865, Clipper Whirlwind. The aircraft were all very nice, old CO blue interiors. The F/A's uniforms were fantasic. This was a really nice airline when I flew it, and it offered an amazing value. I'm sorry that it was no longer around. I truly believe that management just drove it into the ground.
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 12, 1999 7:32 am

I saw Pan Am Boeing 727-200 with winglets at BOS last month.

BWIADCA - Nikon D100
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RE: The New Pan Am

Sun Dec 19, 1999 2:26 pm

I flew Pan Am II by sheer accident two years ago. My wife and I were to fly to Aruba on Air Airuba from EWR, but Air Aruba was having some financial difficulties and was having problems getting their planes in the air.

When we checked in for the flight back from Aruba the boarding pass said "operated by Pan Am" in little letters on the bottom. I was hoping to see the old white and blue of Pan Am. However, when we went to the plane I was completely surprised the see a 727-200 sitting there with the 'Miami Heat' basketball logo emblazoned across the top! When I went up the airstair I saw "Pan American" in white lettering on the nose. I found out that this was the team plane for the Miami Heat. The whole plane had nice leather seats and the service was great. Wonder if the new Pan Am will do any pro team charters?
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Miami Heat Plane

Sun Dec 19, 1999 4:11 pm

To add some more to that plane, I do believe when Pan AM II went under the basketball team sent some officals on the plane to take out those leather seats that you were talking about. After that there was a big fuss who owned the seats, and I believe the Heat got in trouble for taking the seats out without asking or something like that. I thought it was funny that Heat plane was actually in service for the public. If anyone can add or correct me on what i said please do so.



RE: The New PanAm

Mon Dec 20, 1999 7:30 am

I keep hereing about PanAm comeing back. why don't thay get back into air freight "Clipper Cargo" they can buy some older 747's or buy Kitty Hawk up and start of this way and later down the road. then start up with passanger flight's. after all Pan Am was very good in air freight
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RE: The New Pan Am

Fri Dec 24, 1999 2:48 am

Where did Pan Am III find it's aircraft? Were there a few Pan I/II aircraft in storage that they used? What kind of planes are they flying now (other than the ones that were just mentioned).

A bigger question: What happened to the old Pan Am I/II fleet that didn't go into storage? What airlines are using old Pan Am types?


Fri Dec 24, 1999 7:20 am

The new PanAm is based here in Orlando (Sanford, SFB)... Fly a triangle route map going from Sanford-Portsmouth-Gary-Sanford. They are targeting airports that have free parking, easy access, and are convieniant...All of these airports except Portsmouth have jetways...Sanford has a beautiful terminal with jetways only for the big European charters. Sanford has walk-out jetways for domestic service...On their first day of scheduled service, passengers had to walk in the pouring rain all the way to the terminal!!!!!! Anyways, they are also operating charters from many other major cities, like San Juan, St. Louis, New York, Newark, and Boston. They are VERY interested in MidAmerica airport in St. Louis! I personally think this will be another failed attempt.
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Fri Dec 24, 1999 7:37 am

Actually, Portsmouth does have a jetway...


I Said It Backwards!

Fri Dec 24, 1999 10:11 am

I meant to say that NONE of these airports have jetways except for Portsmouth which has only 1! Gary has none and Sanford has none (for domestic)...Sanford has 5 for international European charters.......ooops!!!!
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RE: The New Pan Am

Tue Dec 28, 1999 3:53 pm

Any rumours on new destinations?
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RE: The New Pan Am

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:17 pm

They're going down. I think mangement team is poor and can't compete with other carriers. Pan Am has no hope in future.
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RE: The New Pan Am

Wed Dec 29, 1999 12:10 am

I think that the employees and fans of the original Pan Am are upset because the original airline had arguably the best presence of any airline in the world, not to mention a great reputation. Earlier posts in this forum have called Pan Am the greatest airline of the century. After all, the did so much for commercial aviation and "glamourizing" air travel.

On the other hand, the airline went under and the name (and I assume trademark) was bought. Now any "fly-by'night" operation can use the once-famous Pan Am name and logo and color scheme, etc... I can see how this may cheapen the mystique and appeal of this once-mighty airline. On the other hand, it's the airlines' fault (the management's, not the employees') for making poor decisions and having to go under. Their name was sold and is being used by a start-up carrier that may not succeed (I guess the odds are against it succeeding.) It may be a disgrace to the Pan Am name, but if the original airline was still with us, it would not be an issue, would it?
1011 FAN
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RE: The New Pan Am

Wed Dec 29, 1999 12:12 am

My Experience with Pan Am II was a joke. The airline in my opinion was a disgrace to the Pan Am name. I was on a scheduled flight from JFK to MIA. It was A300 N864PA Clipper Defiance. Left on time arrived on time. No problems.
THEN 5 days later I had to come home. That is where it gets interesting. I was scheduled for an afternoon flight out of MIA on a B727. 4 hours after the scheduled departure time there was still no plane at the gate, and worse yet no answers from Pan Am as to when. Finally after 6 hours, About 11 pm, we were sent to a local hotel until the next morning. Te next morning it was like the previous night all over again. The flight was supposed to depart for JFK at 9:30 on an A300...but no plane. finally at 12 noon a Falcon Air B727 pulls up to the gate and we were put on the plane randomly. Luckilly I was picked for that plane,as who knows how long the people who had to wait for the next flight waited.
Then a few months after that incident Pan Am II bought Carnival and went bankrupt. It was no big suprise to me after I saw how they treated passengers.
So now we will wait and see how Pan Am III fares....

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