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KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Mon Jul 14, 2003 6:51 pm

In todays issue of 'Der Spiegel' an article which stated that KLM decided to cooperate with Air France. Specialists are now counting the savings in money, that will bring this cooperation.

More here(In dutch)
http://nu.nl/news.jsp?n=175144&c=32


[Edited 2003-07-14 12:16:29]
 
schreiner
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:23 pm

They are almost finished with the talks... We´ve seen that before; says nothing; we will see... Personaly I think AF is the best option. It will be revealed today or tomorrow. We will see...

Cheers,
Schreiner
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deltairlines
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:23 am

There was an article on Yahoo! Airline News (http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030714/0658000578_4.html) that said that AF and KL are in advance talks, but the door is still open to BA.

I agree with you, Schreiner, that I think AF would be the best option for KLM. With DL having hooked up with CO and NW, having AF hook up with KLM would create the strongest trans-Atlantic network yet, with tremendous connecting opportunities available in North America, between CO being strong in the Southwest and Northeast, NW strong in the Midwest, and DL being strong on the entire East Coast, as well as AM in Mexico, will give KLM access to pretty much every destination in North America.

Jeff
 
schreiner
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:23 am

Thanx Jeff... but I think that BA and KL are too arrogant to eachother. They tried it before, but they both want to have more controll into the alliance. KL - BA no way is a noce slogan for this one...

Cheers,
Schreiner
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PW100
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 5:18 am

Well, I tend to disagree here.
I always thought, and still think that BA and KL are perfect for each other. I mean, BA has tons of O&D traffic @ LHR. Considering the severe capacity constraints at LHR [will it see a third a parallel runway this century?], AMS would be a perfect fit for BA's connecting traffic, and handle the overflow traffic from LHR. I remember that in the early eighties, Schiphol ran a campaign in the UK advertising AMS as London's third airport.
The only real problem with a BA tie up is that either BA or KL should let its US partner go.
BTW the likelyhood of KL - BA virtually vanished when NW/CO went into a deal with DL.

I don't really understand why KL needs AF. Much worse, I don't see why KL needs AF with the CDG hub relatively close to AMS. CDG has capacity to spare and won't be growth hindered in the foreseeable future. Four parallel runways and acres and acres of space available for future terminal expansion at CDG.

PW100
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lijnden
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:06 am

In between AMS and CDG is a vacuum called BRU. That way it might be interesting. However, I believe KLM does not need AF for their global network at all. KLM's current alliances are probably the best in the world. Besides, who would pick AF over KLM or CDG over AMS? I do not know anybody! Another scarry idea; the French and Dutch flags have the same colors (red, white, blue). Now imagine AF colors with KLM titles... as part of the deal! Also I wonder if passengers really choose an alliance over an airline? In other words, I wonder if the current urge to merge in the airline industry is really long term thinking?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
schreiner
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:57 am

SPL is one of the plus points for BA, that´s good for BA, but I don´t see why BA is a better partner for KL, I only see more advantages for BA (in the SPL point of view).

BA want´s to have more power over KL, then KL over BA (figures, they are bigger) but I don´t think that KL will let that happen. KL is too arrogant, and also BA is... (what I sayd earlier)

Cheer,
Schreiner
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lijnden
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:12 am

Maybe without the advantage of a Concorde both BA & AF passengers are realizing that AMS-airport is now making the difference and AF & BA are realizing this? Do you prefere LHR or CDG over AMS?
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
MarcoPolo747
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:18 am

Apparently, AZ has also tied-up with AF including a 2% share acquisition in each other. That would make a KL-AF agreement an interesting development to watch after the disastrous KL - AZ tentative agreement. AZ And AF are often plagued by staff strikes, I don't think that will work with KL's business approach.

It is reported that the only thing missing for LX admission into oneworld is an agreement with BA. That would bring a 4th European airline into oneworld. It wouldn't make sense for BA a tie-up with KL at this point.

 
DoorsToManual
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:22 am

Speaking from the point of view of someone living in the UK, I have no preference except price. If it's cheaper to fly via AMS with KLM, then I have no problems with that.

However, at the moment, the cheapest fares are actually available on non-stop flights with BA from LHR so, unless the merger changes this.....

BTW, yes, of course any continental hub is better than the crazy mess they call Heathrow! (but the British love to cheer a loser  Big grin )
 
syncmaster
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:29 am

But isn't BA a government owned airline (I don't know very much about them), and like the Yahoo articale said they would have to be a private corporation for them to be truly considered??
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:59 am

BA was privatised in the early 1980s.
 
MarcoPolo747
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:01 am

BA was privatized long ago and it has made an annual profit since then in spite of local government's pouring money into competing airlines such as AF, AZ, IB, OA. KL is also private, of course.
 
Marcus
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:33 am

Doesn't KLM have a strong partnership with NW?..............why did KLM get "left out in the cold" with the NW/CO/DL deal.....so much that they now have to turn to AF..........
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
L.1011
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:36 am

Marcus,
Air France is in bed with Delta. The murmurs around the industry are that the KL/NW/CO alliance (remember Wings?) Will join Skyteam. So Air France is KL's door to Skyteam, while Conti and NWA are coming in by way of Delta. It WILL happen its a matter of WHEN.
 
SR 103
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:49 am

As a loyal flyer of KL/NW/CO, I would personally hope KLM is able to get BA rather than AF. While I know it will probably not be this way, from my perspective, BA would be a better match than AF. I also would hope that if KL/BA goes through, it would open up some doors for other Oneworld airlines to start agreements with KL. I hold more respect for the airlines in Oneworld rather than Skyteam from personal experience.

In reality I have to accept the fact that it will most likely be AF and I will have to be content with my airlines deciding to join Skyteam. As L.1011 said,
"It WILL happen its a matter of WHEN."

SR 103
 
747firstclass
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:24 am

A major obstacle now as in the past was BAs and the UK lack of openskies with the US. France and the Netherlands have openskies with KL and AF having anti trust immunity with their respective US partner.it may well be never when BA and the UK can enjoy such benefits.
 
jwenting
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:42 pm

Shoot them while you can... There hasn't been a "cooperation" between a French and Dutch company that hasn't led to the quick demise of that Dutch company in a very long time (especially if the French company isn't a lot smaller)...
I wish I were flying
 
tekelberry
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:51 pm

Whatever happens, KLM will always drag NWA into their alliance who will drag Continental (and possibly Delta, I say possibly since they are already SkyTeam members) into their alliance.

Although I would like to see KLM go with BA, I see the opposite happening. NWA & CO will be more likely to join SkyTeam with KLM and Delta than with oneworld. I think NW & CO really screwed up with DL. They shouldn't have began partnerships with an airline that was already in an alliance.

If KLM joined up with oneworld, AA would probably be too arrogant to allow 2 more US carriers in and Delta would be pissed for not joining SkyTeam.

So, basically, I believe that if KLM chooses Air France's SkyTeam, NW and CO will join SkyTeam with a DL and/or KLM recommendation and they all hold hands in a circle while dancing and singing. If KLM chooses British Airways' oneworld, .....(I have no idea how NW would react).
 
tu154m
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:52 pm

KLM reps were in ATL last week touring DLs facilities and holding meetings. Trust me, KL is joining SkyTeam and they will be followed by CO and NW.
S
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
tekelberry
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 2:05 pm

The only real problem with a BA tie up is that either BA or KL should let its US partner go.

AA and BA are sleeping together. Same thing with KL and NW. They won't let either of them go. NW/CO could easily squash DL just by saying "oops" and end up joining oneworld. But that is just wishful thinking from a oneworld fan.
 
lumumba
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:28 pm

Hi everybody.
This is very good news for SNBA if it's confirmed.
If SWISS is going to STAR and KLM to SKYTEAM this means that ONEWORLD will need SNBA and Brussels very hard.
Regards
Patrice
 
Boeing777/747
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:14 pm

NO GOOD IDEA!
This cooperation between AF and KL is doomed to become a failure after Alitalia. Why? Two totally different cultures:

Air France is a friendly airline
KLM is an "icepick" airline

French are strikers and do not like to negociate
Dutch are negotiaters and do not like to strike

Not good.

Lufthansa would have fitted better. Dutch are half Germans. Gosh, whished I was a German.....
 
tekelberry
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:57 pm

If SWISS is going to STAR

Why would SWISS go to Star? They have better relationships with oneworld companies...
 
lumumba
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Tue Jul 15, 2003 8:33 pm

Hi Tekelberry
If they are going to work with Lufthansa what could be a possibility than there are going to join STAR.
Regards
Patrice
 
schreiner
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Wed Jul 16, 2003 8:24 pm

Dutch are half Germans... Hey, watch your language there!

I guess that when AF will go into a strike, there will be agreements about payments to KL to cover the costs. Dutch negotiators are not that stupid... although AZ was a bit of a failure...

Cheers,
Schreiner
Soaring the internet...
 
fa4af
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RE: KLM Decided To Cooperate With Air France

Fri Jul 18, 2003 8:40 pm

what a bunch of stereotype freeks you guys...''Dutch are half Germans'' ''French are strikers'' and so on.. I wonder whether some of you are on the wrong forum...