johnnybgoode
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Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:52 pm

according to flightinternational, Boeing is finally offering to start deliveries of this new stretched derivative of the 717-200 in the 2nd quarter 2006 if it wins the combinded order by Star Alliance carriers Air Canada, SAS, Austrian and Lufthansa.
combined, these four airlines have forwarded a request for 100+ regional aircraft to Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier and Boeing.

the 717-300 would be stretched by nine frames and include an additional 5 rows of seats, totalling a maximum capacity of about 130 seats.

cheers
daniel

If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
srbmod
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 10:32 pm

Very interesting......I wonder if Boeing told AirTran about this before or after they placed the 737NG order? But by the time the first deliveries of the 713 would start, AirTran would already have almost half of their 737NG delivered. Perhaps if AirTran could convert 712 options into 713 options, if indeed Boeing is to launch the type?
 
BlatantEcho
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:04 pm

wow, very interesting news. Most people, and I was pretty close to agreeing, didn't see this happening.

As much as capacity wise a 713 would basically compete with a 737-700, the range issue make it obvious that the planes serve different markets.

Hope this stretched 717 flies, I'm all for the line rolling on.

George
They're not handing trophies out today
 
Qb001
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:21 pm

I'm a big fan of the 2-3 seat configuration and as such, I'm all for a 713. From AC's perspective, I'd have 3 questions.

First: What will its range be?
Second: What will its range be?
Third: What will its range be?

If it's around 2500nm, I say go for it.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:23 pm

I think the range of the 717-300 would have negated it being ordered by Airtran. This is definately very interesting news. It seems like Boeing is putting on the full court press to win this one. This would essentially create a "family" of 717s which has been one of the knocks against the program from its conception. If my memory serves me correctly, SAS, Air Canada and Austrian all operated the DC-9 series jet for quite some time. The current reincarnation can only improve upon a good thing!

717= Regional Jet costs + mainline jet profits.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
ouboy79
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:27 pm

I don't think AirTran would have many problems converting options on existing 717-200 and 737-700/800 to the 717-300 if they feel it will work better than the 737-700 in various markets. For example...if the 713 can provide a lower operating cost on short hops than the 73G, they'll likely add them in as well to increase capacity on the short hops. The 73G and 738s then will go towards expanding longer range routes that the 717 cannot reach.

Now to wait for the message from you know who screaming about the 717 line still being open. ::sigh::  Insane
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:39 pm

Range would be around 1600nm.
There are also talks about a 717-100, be it a slightly shortened version, or just a low-gross-weight version of the -200, for fewer passengers.

Aslo in the race:
A318 (poor chances I think, no family downwards)
CRJ-900 (poor chances again, no family upwards)
ERJ-170/190 (looking not bad)
RRJ possibly
728/928 (depends on what china decides is to be done)

SailorOrion
 
atcboy73
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:41 pm

AWESOME NEWS!

Did anyone forget to ask, what the range would be  Big thumbs up

I love the 2-3 configuration also and try to fly in that configuration when ever I can. Why,you ask. Its is so much nicer to only ask one person to get up for a bathroom break than asking two.

IM a must have window seat kind of guy  Big thumbs up

I also love this symbol------>  Big thumbs up
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:45 pm

Air Tran won't convert its 737-700s to 717-300s because the 737s were bought to fly to the west coast like BWI-LAX, MCO-SFO etc. The 717 cant fly that.
 
BeltwayBandit
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:48 pm

"When the only solution you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

I've always loved that saying, and it kind of applies here. Boeing blew it by not developing a smaller, short-hop aircraft from scratch starting 10 years ago. (They could have bought the 728 jet program from Dornier.) They left themselves wide open in this segment (as did Airbus). The JetBlue order is shaking everyone up.

The 717 is really a generation behind in wing technology, but it's all Boeing has to offer in the near-term. So they offer it. You can sell more 717-200s if you add a -300 (and maybe -100). It would be neat if they decided to develop a new wing and engines for the 717.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:18 am

The 717 does have new highly fuel efficient engines! BMW manufacturers parts of it! Is it called the BR-715???? Its wing does exactly what it was designed for which is short flights with the majority of the time being spent in climb or descent. No amount of "Time" will replace the overall efficiency that the DC-9s wing has.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:07 am

Yes! This is great news! I'm really glad to hear Boeing is giving the 717 the fair chance it deserves. I too like the 3-2 seating arrangement and I hope the 713 gets a *lot* of orders. Go Boeing!
 
717fan
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:08 am

Nice news! Midwest has just slowed the delivery process of its 717's to 2006....so Boeing will have a lot of delivery slots open until then....a sign of new orders? Just speculation....
 
MD-90
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:16 am

The 717s wing is decently modern enough. The MD-90 sure would've benefitted if McD could've tweaked it like Boeing did for the 717.
 
AC_B777
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:48 am

Sounds good, but if the capacity goes up to 130 pax, then why would AC want it?
We are looking for a/c with a capacity of 50-110 pax. We already have the A319 with a capacity of 120, so I think the 713 would probably be out as a contender with AC. However, I could be wrong.
I think Boeing should try and market an extended range version of the 717-200, then I think AC would probably go for it.

AC_B777
In life, some days you are the bug..... some days you are the windshield!
 
UN_B732
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:06 am

airTran, airTran, Boeing didn't offer this to airtran but WILL offer this to Star.
Shows their priorities.
-UN
What now?
 
DIA
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:02 am

Question is. . .do you really think any airline will bite and keep the 717 in production for years to come? Will we see more 713s than 712s?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 5:25 am

Great news for the 717 family I hope they get some orders soon.
Eagles Soar!
 
RIX
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:22 am

Any confirmation from different source? Great if becomes reality...
 
bobrayner
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:36 am

Any confirmation from different source? Great if becomes reality...

Nothing on http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/, but Boeing seem to have been talking about it informally.

For instance:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/126013_air11.html

There's no point in going for longer range - then Boeing start to suffer more from internal competition. Best to tailor it for shorter, high-frequency routes, surely?
Cunning linguist
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:52 am

712LR or 713LR = Replacement for 736
 
ha763
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:54 am

UN_B732,

AirTran wanted and ordered an aircraft that can easily do transcon flights. The proposed 717-300 just increases capacity and will not have the range to fly transcon. Plus Boeing has always said they will not build it unless it gets enough firm orders.
 
n844aa
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:16 pm

It's odd to think that if Boeing decides to discontinue the 717, it'll be the first time in nearly 40 years that a DC-9 variant hasn't been in production.

Obviously its not the same craft as when it debuted, but that's quite an impressive run for the same basic design.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
airlinelover
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 12:58 pm

What else could they do to the wing design?: Add winglets?? That's be nice.. But, if the design works, and sells, why change it?

Chris
Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
 
qantas747
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:31 pm

713LR= Replacement 733's in QF

QF really like the 712's and if they get thier hands on a 713LR that they can have flying trans-tasman, it would really be handy for those lower pax routes, eg. CBR-AKL, CBR-WLG, maybe even MEL-WLG, the mind boggles as to how versatile a 3-2 aircraft operating Transtasman will work.. I hope it does happen.. Needs range to compete though.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:31 pm

The 717 will be used for short-haul, high frequency routes. Fuel consumption accounts for about 20% of the operation costs of these flights, so getting a percent or two for the winglets generally does not make much sense. Low maintenance costs, and especially high-cycle structures and engines are way more important.

The only thing that worries me is that the 717 is not fly-by-wire, which is a small "-" on the maintenance side, on the other hand, the inital costs are quite low, and maybe the operators get then special conditions for possible 7E7 and 777 sales.

About 717-300 and Airtran.
1) The 713 will not be able to fly transcon. It's never built for that, and it does not make sense to operate her on such routes.
2) Boeing does not want to rely on only one customer any more I think.
3) EVERY aircraft manufacturer would launch a new aircraft type, when the largest alliance happens to turn up, and sais: hey we need an inital batch of about 100 planes, and about 400-600 on the long run.

SailorOrion
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:21 pm

although Boeing now seems to be committed to the 717-300, i highly doubt that if this joint order becomes reality this aircraft will play a major role in. if they decide for the 717, i´m sure most orders will be for the 717-200.
as someone pointed out, the 717-300 would probably match the capacity of AC´s and LH´s A319s and thus, at first glance, seems to be odd type. however, the -300 certainly allows for more flexibility and is a suitable replacement for 737-300 (and possibly SK´s 737-600s ???).

we should not forget that this joint order also covers aircraft with a capacity of 70-100 seats. and as confirmed by LH some weeks ago, this joint order could still be split up between two manufacturers, f.e. CRJ700 and 717.

cheers
daniel

If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
JAL
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:36 pm

Awesome news!!!!! Hopes Boeing goes throught with the new 717!!!
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
na
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:42 pm

Nice to hear. I was afraid that the rear-engined birds were on the way out. They´re so superior in businessclass comfortwise .
 
CanadianPilot
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:15 am

AirCanada wants CRJ's because its the best aircraft to add to their maintenance schedule.
However I think they like the options availible (size wise) with the ERJ.....so its a tough call....I think its safe to safe it wil either be ERJ or CRJ.
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:23 am

I just don't see this happening.
Sorry.

It doesn't address half of the Star issue...which is a 70 seater.
The 170/190 combination is going to be the most suitable.
 
lgbguy
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:24 am

This is certainly great news for the folks at Long Beach, I being one.

Let's hope this comes to fruitation and the the Star Alliance places a large order.

lgbguy
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:29 am

It will need to be on the order of 200+ planes to cover the 717 development cost (existing -200 and new -300).

What is the magnitude of Star order in units? Anybody?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:38 am

I have not heard any indication of the order magnitude.


LH would be interested for a 146/733/735 replacement, AC for a 146/732 replacement, OS for an MD-87/F70 replacement, SAS for a 736 replacement.

This could easily add up to 100 firm.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:41 am

Greg: Initial order should be somewhere near 100+100 as I was told, with up to 600 over the next 15 years or so.

However I think 200+ is not a correct value, the -200 is developed, and the -300 costs little, since there are only VERY minor changes apart from the avionics, those being mainly the landing gear and possibly some enhanced flaps. Also the engines will need a couple of percent more thrust, which can either be done with "chiptuning", by increasing the fan size, or by adding another booster stage.

SailorOrion
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:48 am

The current 712 could probably break even at about 200 sales (currently about 150) while a simply 713 stretch could break even with perhaps 75 sales.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
MD-90
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:32 am

I think all they'd have to do would be to "chip" the engines, no other changes would be necessary except they'd be more expensive. Haven't the engines been run up to something like 25,000 lbs of thrust before?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:46 am

If the Star Alliance launches the 713....QF, Airtran & Midway may also follow with orders also. They have all indicated an interest.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Danny
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 2:00 am

No way they will purchase 717. It does not fit their fleets at all.

Lufthansa would prefer A318. They have strong preferations in Airbus and they operate 319, 320, 321 so that would make family complete.

SAS - that is strange since they didn't have enough traffic for some of their 736 and leased them out to Air Europa. 717 could be replacement for theirs MDs though.

Air Canada - strong preferations for CRJ due to obvious reasons.

Daniel
 
travatl
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:14 am

If the Star Alliance launches the 713....QF, Airtran & Midway may also follow with orders also. They have all indicated an interest.

Just curious...which Midway is that?

Travis
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:26 am

Sorry...I meant Midwest.

Thanks...... Big grin


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:56 am

This definately is an order that is multi-dimensional. Do we have a more links to an actual press release?

Each aircraft has its strong points and weaknesses. I think right now Boeing has the most to gain from winning the order. The 717 desperately needs more orders to truly solidify it. Midwest and AirTran can't keep the line going forever. If Boeing is truly offering the 717-300 then their will finally be the "family" concept that the airlines have longed for. If I were part of Boeing's sales team I would do what it takes to make sure this order goes to Long Beach.

What we need to do is compare all of the aircraft and see what their pros and cons are. IMHO the 717 is best suited for these airlines. The A318 is too heavy for the short haul routes and not designed for the rigourous short hops. The CRJ is definately favored in Canada but there really isn't a step up in capacity available like their is with the 717. The ERJ 170/190 in my opinion could win the order because it is techically the best of both worlds. The only problem is that it doesn't have any "hometown" airlines routing for it!

717= Lufthansa (BMW Engines), SAS (Current MD fleet)
CRJ= Air Canada (Canadian Built)
A318= Lufthansa (European Built)
ERJ= ????????

This is Boeing's chance to make the 717 line a "reality" in terms of orders and long term stability. Austrian, SAS and Air Canada have all operated the DC-9 series family and loved them. Hopefully Boeing will make a good pitch.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 3:58 am

Sailor,
No offense, but if there was a market for 600+ 717-300 aircraft only--the plane would have been marketed by Boeing a long time ago!

Boeing hasn't even begun to break even on the -200, let alone the -300. At the very most, capturing 50% of the 600+ market (more likely the case) is only 300 aircraft over 15 years. This is still not nearly enough to break even on production.

Don't be fooled. At the margin at which Boeing and Airbus can produce a profit on aircraft is incredibly slim--the 'modest' redesign and recertification will cost plenty of $$$.

A 200 plane order would, however, be a tremendous boost to the program. But I don't see it happening.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 4:55 am

Greg: sorry for not making myself clear, its about 600 planes in the 70-120 seat category.

SailorOrion
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:09 am

This is where Boeing needs to be creative and partner with Bombardier in selling a combination CRJ/717 solution (if not, EMB will rule this segment).

It's against their corporate culture, however, to do that.....which is a shame....
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:02 am

Lets see what Boeing does here before we bash them okay! As I stated earlier, this is the type of order the 717 needs and Boeing knows it. Lets make it happen!
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 8:14 am

Also the engines will need a couple of percent more thrust, which can either be done with "chiptuning", by increasing the fan size, or by adding another booster stage.

You can change the thrust of a BR715 from 18,500 to 21,000 just by turning a bolt. No Software changes required. The BR715-A1, B1, and C1-30 are the same engine.
Puhdiddle
 
senliture
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:47 am

um...may anyone tell me that why the 736 is not good?
heard that SK want to replace it, but why?

Senliture
 
Guest

RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:02 pm

Ah yes the always great negative comments from Greg. Anyway to answer your question, Star is looking at ordering 100 firm 717s with 100 options. Then with the 100 firm planes, the airlines who want them would split up the order accordingly. I was told it would be 50 717-200 & 50 717-300s. This was told to me at the time of the first Midwest delivery so it may have changed by now.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Offers 717-300 To Star Carriers

Sat Jul 19, 2003 12:08 pm

may anyone tell me that why the 736 is not good?
heard that SK want to replace it, but why?


There have been reports that SAS is not thrilled with the 736 performance (both cost/seat and relative inflight instability due to its short fuselage). SAS would be a prime candidate for the 712/713.....they have a long association w the DC-9/MD-80 and only narrowly chose the 736 over the 712/MD-95 back in 1995.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.

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