RJ100
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New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 1:56 am

Hello

Moritz Suter, founder of Crossair, confirmed today that he is going to start a new regional airline in Switzerland. The first flight will take off on October 28th from Lugano to Geneva. This route will be flown thrice times daily. Fares starting at 159 CHF.

More news (airline name etc.) will follow soon.

They plan to operate ex-Swiss Saab-2000s on routes from Basel,Geneva, Lugano and maybe Bern to former Crossair/Swiss destinations.

Good luck Moritz Suter!

RJ100  Smile
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BestWestern
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:01 am

Fast forward eighteen months....

Another swiss regional carrier goes bankrupt!
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
backfire
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:01 am

Didn't Flight International report this a few weeks ago?
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:08 am

why? Crossair was very succesful and Moritz Suter proved enough that he knows the airline business well.

RJ100
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BestWestern
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:11 am

Crossair was very successful - true - but crossair had its pick of profitable routes, and interline traffic from Swissair.

This carrier is hoovering up the non profitable Swiss routes with little interline traffic - hardly a successful business model.
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
717fan
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:11 am

Nice news! I wish him luck! Why no flights out of Zurich? Any agreement with Swiss?
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:18 am

717fan: sorry for the mistake. I just forgot to list Zurich!

Bestwestern: ever thought about why Swiss is not profitable on so many routes? Because their cost level is way too high! The new airline will have much lower costs. Like Crossair...

RJ100
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BestWestern
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:25 am

RJ:

How many Profitable Saab2000 operators are there out there?

My limited experience with the Saab2000 is that it is not a low cost prop aircraft - better to go for the ATR or Dash-8 equipment. The one Saab2000 company I worked with dropped the aircraft due poor passenger perception and high prop costs - they then went for the ATP - and eventually went back to all jet.

Swiss have high costs - correct, but the marginal routes have been dropped. What ever routes the new regional will pick up will be marginal for them too.

A Potential GVA route, which I thought was profitable was GVA-LCY

[Edited 2003-07-17 19:26:22]
You are 100 times more likely to catch a cold on a flight than an average person!
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 2:28 am

Well, Moritz Suter said that the Saab2000 is one option because Swiss is phasing them out. But you are right, there are other options.

Both BSL-LCY and GVA-LCY will be back soon, believe me! They were essential routes for Crossair with very high yields!

Regards,
RJ100
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Unique
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:17 am

Great! I soon see 559 ex-Crossair/ex-Swiss pilots applying for jobs with them...

Crossair was very successful...

...until Swissair asked them to cooperate and work as their feeder or having them crocked up. That was quite some years ago though...
 
rey777
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:58 am

Nice to see Moritz "en route" for a new adventure ! Good luck !
 
gerardo
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 6:35 am

Just to be precise: Moritz Sutter asks for nothing less than no taxes for ten years and only one symbolic Swiss Franc as landing fee, instead of 450.- That way, even SWISS would fly that route.

Gerardo
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RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:30 pm

But keep in mind that SWISS asked for a few billions $$$ before they took off...

And why should they not ask for it? Linking Swiss cities with other cities is very important for the whole economy. And if the new airline is creating jobs, then every employee has to pay taxes so this is good as well.

Just my 0.02$.

RJ100
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Unique
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:33 pm

RJ100, I agree with you for once... Big grin
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:40 pm

@Unique:  Big thumbs up

RJ100  Smile
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Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 3:41 pm

As I know what the government of Ticino was offering to more or less every regional airline for setting up a Lugano-Paris and a Lugano-Rome flight, I think he will easily get this money from the local government ...
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 4:12 pm

Good news in deed, hope they will pick the TUN-GVA and CMN-GVA routes before TU fills the gap...
Besides, I don't think those routes are marginal...
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:15 pm

Hi AIR MALTA

Yes, some more Switzerland-Tunisia flights would be nice! But in a Saab2000? I don't know...it doesen't seem like a typical destination for a start-up regional carrier. But who knows...

Personally I think they will introduce LUG-BSL, BSL-LCY and GVA-LCY as their next destinations.

Regards,
RJ100
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swissgabe
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:19 pm

Well, getting all the permissions from the FOCA isn't that easy these days.

I really wonder why Suter goes to LUG iso BRN or BSL. I mean BSL should have some potential and so has BRN.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
Unique
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:23 pm

Maybe it's just another tactical bragging...? I do dare Suter! I hope not...
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:33 pm

Suter has deep relationships with the canton of Ticino. Some people there asked him to help as Lugano is not well connected with other cities. He agreed to set up something if the canton of Ticino would help him (taxes, landing fees).

But he said that only the beginning will be in Lugano. I'm pretty sure that he will build up the headquarters and main operation in BSL.

By the way does someone of you know what happened with the BRN-BRU flights. As far as I can remember Crossair was operating this flight earlier, right?
Could be a possible new route for InterSky or "SutAir".  Smile

RJ100
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swissgabe
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:45 pm

Well, from what I heard InterSky doesn't really make money on the current routes. I wonder if it's Bern, InterSky or the destinations they fly to.

The beginning in LUG sounds good. From what I have heard, Suter might have a HQ in France (near BSL). Labour costs are much cheaper for sure and I also think that it might be easier to set up a new carrier in France than in Switzerland.
Smooth as silk - Royal Orchid Service /// Suid-Afrikaanse Lugdiens - Springbok
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Fri Jul 18, 2003 11:56 pm

Yes, already Crossair Europe was set up in the town of Saint-Louis, Alsace. It's just across the border. You can also avoid a lot of problems with the "Bundesamt für Zivilluftfahrt". But then I don't think they will be allowed to fly domestic services in Switzerland?! We'll see...

Best regards to Sri Lanka!
RJ100
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Snoopy
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:01 pm

Regarding domestic Swiss flights: flying from GVA and BSL they could actually be considered international flights from France if the airline was registered in France.
 
Guest

RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:15 pm

Regarding domestic Swiss flights: flying from GVA and BSL they could actually be considered international flights from France if the airline was registered in France.

Yup. Just like any airline could fly GVA-BSL as a french domestic flight as both airports have swiss and french sides. I don't know why he would want to register in france though, look at the big difference in taxes between both countries...

Tim
 
Unique
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 6:20 pm

Flying "abroad" from Switzerland means automatically higher fees and higher fuel costs (fuel has to be duty paid for international flights) while domestic flights would be cheaper in this respect.
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 9:05 pm

Does anyone of you guys know if SWISS took over the old Swissair monopoly on some routes? I remember that there were some EasyJet/Swissair fights for GVA-BCN etc.

This would be a reason for setting up a French based carrier!

Regards,
RJ100
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Thomas_Jaeger
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:15 pm

No, this monopoly was lost after the bilateral agreements with the European Union have got effective. I think it still like this on domestic routes, but as GVA and BSL are binational airports you can serve Swiss domestic routes from there too, you just have to operate out of the French part of the airport. So ZRH-LUG would be the only route where this monopoly is still in place besides routes to non-EU countries.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
Snoopy
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sat Jul 19, 2003 11:21 pm

"higher fuel costs "

Actually, isn't it the other way round? Fuel on domestic flights is taxed but on international flights it's duty free? Well, that's the way it worked some years ago when I was flying privately out of ZRH. That's why I always flew to Annemasse rather than GVA, I got the fuel tax free.

Also, which "fees" would be bigger flying from the French sector of BSL rather than the Swiss sector (and/or similar situation for GVA)?
 
saab2000
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sun Jul 20, 2003 12:59 am

This is going to be great news if it is for real. I have a Saab 2000 rating, am current and will soon probably be looking for a job.

BTW, it looks as though SWISS and our union have finally come to an agreement. I have not had a chance to check all the details but I suspect it will be accepted. If so, it could be a major turning point for SWISS. Bad labor-management relations make for a bad working environment and that is what we have had for nearly 2 years now. I hope for peace soon.
smrtrthnu
 
RJ100
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sun Jul 20, 2003 1:09 am

@Snoopy: you're right, until now fuel on domestic flights is taxed. I don't know about international flights, though.

The Swiss government is now discussing the end of fuel taxes for domestic flights to support SWISS.

Regards,
RJ100
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patroni
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sun Jul 20, 2003 9:11 am

Well, as much as I loved the old Crossair and as much as I love to fly on the Saab 2000, I think a new regional airline can not be compared with the Crossair from some years ago.

Following reasons :
1) When Crossair enjoyed its best time, the threat from the low cost carriers was by far not as strong as it is nowadays.

2) - and somewhat linked to 1) - Due to the economic downturn in most countries, companies send their business travellers often on the low cost carriers or cheap offers of network carriers. Only a very limited number of passengers/companies is willing to pay extra for a decent service on a domestic or European flight. The importance of service has lost ground against the price.

3) Passengers unfortunately prefer a 30 year old 737 to a whining new turboprop. This is silly, but i you have a Saab 2000 and an A319 competing on a route, the passengers will prefer the Airbus (I would not, but I fear I am in part of the minority...)

Anway, I wish MS and his team good luck and lots of success for their plans. If a Saab will fly to LUG, i will definitely book a seat!

Cheers,

Tom
 
Snoopy
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:42 am

Patroni in many ways you are right, but the whole idea of a regional airline that operates aircraft like the Saab is that it should operate routes which are not profitable for jet carriers, feeding into a larger carrier's hub. This was the concept behind Crossair in the early days that made it so successful.

I guess that Suter is trying to implement the same kind of concept now allwoing people from the south of Switzerland to feed into international flights in Geneva and Basel, without having to take the train/car to those places or to Milan.

The trouble is that neither of those two airports are particularly attractive at the moment (lack of international connections) and there probably isn't that much local traffic. As a poster said earlier on...the market has changed considerably in the past 20 years....
 
patroni
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RE: New Regional Airline In Switzerland!

Sun Jul 20, 2003 11:16 pm

@Snoopy :
>>feeding into a larger carrier's hub. This was the concept behind Crossair in the early days that made it so successful.<<

Well, it should be added that the relationship between Crossair and Swissair in the early days was not too good. In 1982 for example, Swissair claimed the traffic rights for Crossair's two most proftable routes from Zürich to Nuremberg and Hanover. At that time, Crossair did indeed feed SR's services, but the transfer passengers still needed to purchase two individual fares.

Nowadays, if a regional airline starts an interline relationship with a network carrier, the margins fo the regional company are very small, if not even negative. Take for example a flight Lugano-Zürich-Santiago. If the oneway fare is e.g 1000 CHF, it will normally be split between the interline partners according to the IATA prorate factors (which means more or less putting the sector lengths into comparison). On the basis of the multilateral proration agreement, this would probably only leave the minimum of 25 USD for the feeding carrier, so even less than the average 40-60EUR which the lowcost carriers claim to get.

Therefore I doubt that any airline can survive with only feeding a major hub. It also requires a strong local traffic at higher yields.

Cheers,

Tom