FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5258
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:49 am

No surprise here as everyone saw this one coming, but Song will launch FLL-LAX on Oct 1, 2003.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030724/245436_1.html

With AA already flying the route 3x daily and B6 (FLL-LGB) going to 2x daily, looks like the competition will be fierce. This could be a tough route for Song to make profitable.
 
chicago757
Posts: 348
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 7:02 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:53 am

They'll do well on that too....especially cause they will have satellite tvs on the seats for passengers. Unbelievable how this feature is a big feature for only low-fare airlines.........(jetBlue)
Go White Sox!!!!
 
GoAround
Posts: 590
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:59 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:55 am

What does Delta fly on this route atm? How does this compare to Song's offering?

I can't see anything on their website - is this a new service from Delta or is Song taking over from Delta mainline?

GoAround
GoAround
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:56 am

The TV's on board will not be fleet wide until early 2004 so there are chances your aircraft will not have it.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5258
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:00 am

GoAround,

Currently, DL does not fly FLL-LAX nonstop. This will be a new route for Song and DL.
 
richierich
Posts: 3282
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:05 am

I think DL is ticked off that JetBlue has increased this market to two a day.

FYI: Luv2Fly is correct. The only current IFE on Song (or Delta/Delta Express for that matter) is the in-flight magazine. The much bally-hooed satellite TV is still a good way from making it to ANY Song aircraft, let alone the whole fleet. It was supposed to be in before first flight, then it got pushed to October 2003. Now, who knows. Sometime in 2004 perhaps.

JetBlue has had free live TV on every flight since day 1. Score one for B6.
None shall pass!!!!
 
Guest

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:24 am

Hmmm... good news... does anybody know how much planes does Song fly yet?
 
jeffie813
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:18 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:27 am

does anyone know why song/delta or jetblue haven't started non-stop flights to lax or las from pbi? i don't have access to hard numbers like a lot of you do, but from what i have seen in various articles in the newspaper, there is a significant amount of passengers with pbi as a final destination on departures from lax, las, den, and sfo. national airlines had planned a las-pbi non-stop flight but a month or so before the inaugural flight, they went under.
 
richierich
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Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:36 am

I would guess the answer is that there is just not a market for it.
I think if anyone ever did offer these routes in the future, I'm thinking LA is more appealing than Las Vegas. Maybe it was decisions like these that caused National to go under??
Well, if you needed to get to LA, you would probably at least consider driving to FLL or MIA, right? This is what the airlines are counting on too.
None shall pass!!!!
 
jeffie813
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2001 3:18 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:44 am

rich

national went under fairly soon after 9/11 and it was mostly due to them not receiving emergency loans from the government...kind of why midway went under, among others.

also, there is a market for it, at least according to numbers that i have seen. but i know some people that use this board have hard data on it, which is what i'm curious about.

and if i did need to go to lax, i would just leave from pbi. mia is too much of a pain...i only consider mia if i'm looking for a non-stop int'l flight. and i know this will cause an uproar among some fll lovers, but i really don't like fll at all. the drive is annoying and the airport is just not as nice as pbi.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:53 am

Good move on Song's part. This is bringing the Miami-Los Angeles market to 12 daily non-stops; six each from MIA and FLL, two to/from LGB, on four airlines (8x AA; 2x B6; 1x UA; 1x DL). Plus, United usually runs two MIA-LAX flights during the winter. The compieition is definitley going to be fierce, I wonder how AA will react. I truly doubt they are going to go more than three daily - no way - but they established themselves as the sole trans-con carrier from Ft. Lauderdale quite a while ago. They added a second daily in February 2002, and after jetBlue's announcement, added a third. FLL-LAX has been a very profitable market for them because Ft. Lauderdale is near the HQ of the majority of the area's F-500 companies and other large national corporations. Song and jetBlue are hurting the yields; I had already noticed American matching jetBlue's $252 Rtn. airfare.
a.
 
BillElliott9
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 8:10 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:58 am

Jeffie813 has a good point about PBI, though. The last two years Palm Beach County and Martin County (next county north) have had more new residents come from south fl than the the rest of the continental US. An interesting tidbit; And he is right, that extra 45-50 miles to FLL is not fun.
You can fight without ever winning but never really win without a fight.
 
spirit MD-80
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:13 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:05 am

I'm so over SONG to many promises with the TV like Richierich said, it's funny because Song is about the food on board the TV (which they don't have), the game. But they forget the most important thing that jetblue has never forgotten CUSTOMERS, if you notice song says nothing about customers, there's just things that Song will never be able to COPY from jetBlue, and that's customer commitment.
 
2cn
Posts: 632
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:06 am

How have they forgotten the customers? And how is Song not going to have a customer commitment?
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47 am

Yes Song has forgotten the customer! You have to look hard in advertising to find the disclaimer about the no TV yet.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Guest

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:36 am

No matter how hard Delta may try, they are not going to get rid of jetBlue. Sorry but I believe that jetBlue will have the customers in the LA basin and not Delta. I think Song is too little too late.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sat Jul 26, 2003 9:18 am

No matter how hard Delta may try, they are not going to get rid of jetBlue. Sorry but I believe that jetBlue will have the customers in the LA basin and not Delta. I think Song is too little too late.

I think Song is going to do very well, but not at the expense of jetBlue.

In the Miami area, jetBlue has roared to success. They have done so because they have actually been able to build-up a customer base that is extremely loyal, and does not at all mind paying an extra $5-$20 over the competitor for what they feel is superior customer service and satisfaction. Their FLL-LGB route has been a storming success, with a second daily coming in September, and Dulles is finally getting the long overdue third-daily flight as well.

At the same time, only American Airlines has a larger customer base in South Florida than Delta, and Delta has not let FLL stand-still lately. In the past year, Delta has added non-stops from Ft. Lauderdale to Washington National and Port Columbus. In August they start Las Vegas, while September sees the launches of Nashville and Raleigh-Durham, and in October we see Los Angeles. This joins Atlanta, Cincinnati, Dallas, LaGuardia, JFK, Newark, Boston, and Hartford, plus AeroMexico to Mexico City. They have extensive coverage of Miami's big O&D markets and their own dedicated terminal building (the only non-Delta carrier that uses is is Midwest Express during the winter; though they likely will go to T3 next year) with a lot of room to grow (and they will be growing a lot at FLL in the coming year).

jetBlue will, without a doubt, continue to put a strong focus on FLL and grow. They have one problem, though, and that is gate space. As it stands, I believe they only have two full-time gates and a third they share with CO, and they are being used for eighteen daily flights this winter. Though the potential to grow with Oakland, San Juan, and even Buffalo (huge O&D market from South Florida and not served non-stop), is definitely there for them.
a.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:52 am

Actually, DL is larger at FLL than AA and B6 combined, I believe. They certainly bring in enough widebodies!

Steve
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sat Jul 26, 2003 10:58 am

Actually, DL is larger at FLL than AA and B6 combined, I believe

Nobody disputed that, they are by far the largest carrier at FLL and second largest in the Miami area. In the first four months of 2003, they carried 1.03M passengers at FLL, by far the largest. #2 was Southwest with half that number...537,000. American is #3 with 503,000. jetBlue is #5 with 385,00. However, they were just barely behind USAirways and seeing how USAirways has cut service and jetBlue has added at FLL in the past few months, they are without a doubt now at #4, which is probably they highest they will go for now.
a.
 
spirit MD-80
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:13 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:45 am

Remember Song employees aside from the TALENT!! are DL employee which are a bunch of Dinosaurs, you can't teach and old dog new tricks they are so set in the Delta mode, yes for the first couple of months they might be nice but the time will come when the true colors come out. They actually will call a DL flight Attendant thats on reserved to cover a song trip if song has no one to cover the trip, How sad is that for the Song talent that all of t hem are doing the same trip but one flight attendant is making more money
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:08 am

Spirit MD-80
Well that will make for a happy cabin crew will it not! Are the uniforms that similar or do they issue DL FA's a Song uniform for just this unlikely emergency? And I agree right now it is new, slightly different and exciting, wait until the paint drys and you will see the true colors come shining through....
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5258
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:44 am

Spirit MD-80,

Your comments demonstrate a pretty high level of ignorance. Just because DL employees are older and have made working at DL a career doesn't make them dinosaurs. I guess they could go work for a low-fare carrier and be burned out in 5 years (which is what the management at low-fare carriers wants).

If employees from other airlines are such "dinosaurs" why does JetBlue hire them? I know for a fact that JBLU has hired many F/A's from other airlines. So what gives?

I'm not sure where you're coming up with the Song doesn't care about customers stuff. You've pretty much just made that up. Song also hasn't changed any of its timetables in terms of the IFE. The timetable has always called for the TV's to go in starting in Oct 2003 and stretching into early 2004 to complete the whole fleet.



 
capt078
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:10 am

song will do well on the fll-lax and fll-las routes. certainly, song will not be successful at the expense of jetblue, but at the expense of american. as a traveler who frequently flies song and jetblue, i know it will be american that hurts. jetblue is the best, and there is no disputing that. but song is excellent, and they have done a tremendous job copying jetblue. so what if the private tvs don't start coming until october? they're still yet another step in the right direction; evidence that delta is starting to get the big picture. and anyone who claims song's employees are dinosaurs and unfriendly obviously has not flown song. yes, song uses mainline delta pilots, they're the only unionized force in delta and that's why song will never be able to fully match jetblue's costs. but the gate agents and flight attendants at song are now exclusively with song, and were lured with special incentives and a pay scale that is (i believe) merit and productivity based. in the three months song has been around, i have flown them ten times, and each flight has been excellent. they have a great website that is easy to use, clean and cheerful planes (with 34 in. pitch i might add), and the nicest flight attendants i have ever met. jetblue is still slightly better because they are more efficient and have private tvs and are a niche unto themselves, but song is excellent. american is the dinosaur, and this whole idea of adding seats/removing legroom is most certainly a step backward.
 
spirit MD-80
Posts: 85
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:13 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:38 am

FlyPNS1,

I work for an airline since 1992 as a Flight Attendant based in JFK, I have become good friends with many flight attendants from when I shared a crash pad in Kew Gardens, I have Delta, AA, NW, and still former TWA friends that we shared a apartment, I have many DL F/A that were laid off and were offered position with SONG, It's sad that the Flight Attendants (TALENT) are the only ones that are getting screwed, they are the only ones that are getting paid peanuts while everyone else from rap to customer service crew are all Delta, the comment about Dinosaurs is very well used in the airline industry meaning very senior people no one takes offense to it, so I don't see why you should. And yes jetblue has hired many F/A from other airlines the ones that still care about the customer only, I have heard many comments about Delta from their actual Employees and not good comments, so Yes after a while the DL employee will show their actual colors, its all a Show for now, if they treat the Song customers so nice why can't they do the same for the actual DL customers. Now they DL employees have been trained by SONG people, especially in SJU that I know many DL Agents that song came down and trained them, at first they were all Friendly and happy but slowly when I see them their actual colors are coming out, mmmmmm lets see what is the term that the DL people used for the song customers out of SJU to MCO ( GHETTO PEOPLE). And yes Song in SJU newspaper had this lovely add about the only airline that offers Leather Seats that they offer TV and Music, ALL FALSE ADVERTISEMNT, No where in that paper does it say that the TV are not offered at the moment, And song does not talk about their customers it talks about what they can offer TV, Music,Food, to out do jetblue they are so blinded by trying to defeat jetblue that they forget about their customers, SONG is a big copycat of Jetblue that's all they are, why can't DL offer what song offers,?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:02 am

song will do well on the fll-lax and fll-las routes. certainly, song will not be successful at the expense of jetblue, but at the expense of american.

Not out of Miami. American is the main airline here and new compietition is welcomed, but won't hurt American that much. Out of Orlando, however, Song can hurt American.


Also, I find it very odd that Song would advertise DiSH services to San Juan customers, because thet transmission is not available over the Caribbean.
a.
 
UN_B732
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 7:20 am

jetBlue was not free from the start..I have an old brochure (that had a much nicer channel line-up) that said it costs $5 a flight for LiveTV.
-UN
(Why are the new a/c installed with the CC readers?)
What now?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 8:39 am

LiveTV originally did cost $4, but only for a few months.

The CC readers are there because the LiveTV makes them with CC readers for airlines, such as Frontier, that do charge. It's more cost effective to simply make one model. Also, a CC reader in the seat can also allow jetBlue to explore future potential options and additional revenue streams, such as Pay-Per-View movies that Song will be doing.
a.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:18 am

MAH4546,

Why is it that you think that AA is always unphased by competition at MIA? AA could be hurt by JetBlue and SONG. AA is vulnerable in any area and MIA is not an exception. Low-fare airlines like SONG and JetBlue may not be serving Miami and directly affecting American, but their fares are hurting AA's yields, which DOES hurt American. Why are you always pumping up Miami so much? In American's press releases about downgrading the STL hub, they mentioned that they had hubs @ DFW and ORD, MIA wasn't even mentioned. Obviously they hub there, but that is not AA's main priority. AA can and eventually will be hurt by low-fare competition, even @ MIA.

Jeremy
 
chepos
Posts: 5932
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 9:40 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:30 am

I havent seen the Song add in the newspaper yet , which newspaper was it- El Nuevo Dia, EL Vocero, Primera Hora, El San Juan Star ? How is Song doing on the Orlando - San Juan route, considering the fact that they have some stiff comp. and the have the highest advance purchase fares at the moment.
Current fares for the Orlando (MCO)- San Juan flight
$202 AA- R/T
$235 ATA R/T
$285 Spirit R/T
$290 Song R/T
Chepos
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:41 am

Why is it that you think that AA is always unphased by competition at MIA? AA could be hurt by JetBlue and SONG.

I never, ever said that. What I did say is that I hardly think one daily Song flight to LAX is going to hurt AA's eight-daily LAX flights. Yeah, it is not great for yield, and, in fact, ever since jetBlue launched FLL-LGB, flying FLL-LAX on AA has gotten a whole lot cheaper (MIA-LAX hasn't, though). AA is obviously vulnerable to lowfare compieition from both MIA and FLL, but as performed very well through it all in the Miami area so far.

In American's press releases about downgrading the STL hub, they mentioned that they had hubs @ DFW and ORD, MIA wasn't even mentioned.

"American to Maintain Positive Momentum on Achieving Turnaround Plan Objectives
by Realigning Mid-Continent Hub Schedules."

Miami is not part of thier mid-continent hub system. However, thanks to STL closure, MIA has has three new mainline routes to Indianapolis, Minneapolis, and Pittsburgh, and roughly 15 new daily flights. Of course, the other hubs are benefiting too. ORD has a lot of new Eagle destinations and doubled-HNL service, while DFW is getting a few extra M80 flights to some domestic cities, new EZE service, and new additional LGW service.
a.
 
capt078
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 11:33 am

to clarify the comment i made earlier about song hurting american, i was referring to american's daily fll-lax flight aboard a 737-800 (soon to be upgraded to a 757 for the winter season), which i'm sure will be hurt by the addition of the song fll-lax flight. in addition, i definitely think song and jetblue (and all the other new carriers out of fll) will hurt american out of miami. aside from dade county residents, and those in the keys, miami is an out-of-the-way airport full of hassles. as a former broward country resident (with family still here), i avoid miami like the plague. american may have a stronghold there, but for cheaper fares and less hassles, people will chose to fly out of fll and even pbi. why do you think fll has consistently been listed among the fastest growing airports, while miami has descended in the ranks among the busiest airports?
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:12 pm

to clarify the comment i made earlier about song hurting american, i was referring to american's daily fll-lax flight aboard a 737-800 (soon to be upgraded to a 757 for the winter season)

It is two daily 757-200s and one daily 737-800, all year-round. Morning, midday, and evening departures from both sides.

There is no doubt that FLL will continue to grow while MIA's growth will be minimal. FLL is a much more convienent option. I myself, despite living in the downtown Miami area only minutes from MIA, also sometimes take the extra drive to FLL to save money or fly jetBlue. However, when it comes to international services, MIA will continue to be dominant. And the new-look MIA, which will be complete in late 2006 at a cost of nearly $5B (more than it cost to build DEN from the ground-up) will be a marvelous improvement. The first stage of the American Airlines World Gateway opens in November. MIA will also soon have direct rail connections with AmTrak, TriRail, and MetroRail, a big plus. Though, yes, Concourse A and H are wonderful, and the rest of it sucks, for now.

Song, jetBlue, etc. are not the best news for American. They don't like it, I'm sure, but you don't see them competing on MIA-CCS or MIA-LHR. When they do, then AA will start worrying. One major reason for AA launching FLL-SDQ and FLL-PAP this November is to hopefully try to scare away Spirit. Spirit's quest to become a major player in the Caribbean and Latin America is definitley something American Airlines is taking seriously.

And even though Miami and Palm Beach are in the same metro area, someone in Miami is not going to drive 65 miles to fly out of PBI, especially when the fares are usually slightly higher than FLL.
a.
 
jhooper
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:13 pm

I know Delta management reads this forum, so READ MY LIPS I will not fly song until the PTVs and all of the rest of the promised perks are in place and operational!
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
User avatar
RayChuang
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:16 am

AA affected by DL, B6, and WN at FLL and PBI?

I have my doubts. Don't forget AA has seriously cultivated MIA as a major hub for flights to the Caribbean and most of Latin America--they don't call Miami, FL the Gateway to Latin America for nothing. In short, AA is probably the dominant carrier into Latin America from the eastern USA, with CO a distant second.
 
capt078
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:22 am

boy are we digressing here. the original topic was whether or not song's fll-lax flight would hurt american, obviously with regards to that market. i think we have generally agreed that is the case. MAH4546, i absolutely agree with you. and by the way, thank you for correcting me about american's frequency, i did not realize it was three times a day. however, according to american's website, the 737-800 flight is being upgraded to a 757.

and for JHooper, i understand what you are saying, but if you usually fly coach, then you are missing out. song is the best service (after jetblue) if you sit in coach. and, if (like me) you travel to boston, song and american are the only ones to fly nonstop. in coach, song is preferable to american. however, the new ptvs and such will be a nice addition.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
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RE: Song To Start FLL-LAX

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:50 am

i did not realize it was three times a day. however, according to american's website, the 737-800 flight is being upgraded to a 757.

Correct, but one of the 757-200 flights is also being downgraded to a 737-800. None the less, yesterday they announced a fourth FLL-LAX frequency. They are not taking this sitting down. The fourth flight will be a 737-800. Not surprisingly, the 738 departures are timed idealy for business travelers, while the 752 flights, which won't have MRTC, are timed ideally for leisure travelers.

[Edited 2003-07-28 04:58:12]
a.