NWAA330
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:18 am

Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:45 am

Why weren't more of these ordered. Their relatively new (this one delivered in 99) I personally think their an awesome aircraft and since NW is downsizing its MEM opporations these days, but im sure would like to keep F class on some of the routes being changed to regional a/c wouldnt this be the perfect option? (They are the only airlink opp. with F/C I beleive. and ive flown it and found it equal to if not better than NW mainline) Messaba opporates 36 at present.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bruce Leibowitz



NWAA330
To Fly is to Live.
 
Guest

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:56 am

By contract NW cannot operate more than 36 69-seat regional aircraft.
 
NWAA330
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:18 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:11 pm

Could anyone explain that contract to me?

NWAA330
To Fly is to Live.
 
User avatar
yyz717
Posts: 15699
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 12:26 pm

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:44 pm

It must be a scope limitation with the mainline pilot agreement.

Anyway, 36 aircraft is a sizeable fleet....NW must be happy with the aircraft performance.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
NoBoeingNoGoin
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:21 pm

If they can't operate more that 36 69-seaters why don't they just take out one of the seats?
Alex
 
timf
Posts: 438
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:36 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:38 pm

The 69 seat specification is a limit. I believe it really means they can't operate more than 36 regional jets with more than 50 seats, with a maximum of 69 seats. Without this restriction, the RJ85s would likely have 85 coach seats, rather than the comfortable 16/53 configuration they currently have.
 
acidradio
Crew
Posts: 1595
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 1:42 pm

Actually the contract calls for no more than 36 aircraft that are less than 70 seats. The Avro is supposed to do 85 pax with an all coach configuration, so this was kind of a workaround to use this aircraft and in the process we gained a first class product that doesn't really exist anywhere else in the regional airlines. There are actually 35 active in the fleet right now, as N528XJ was heavily damaged in a collision with a jetbridge in MEM earlier this year.
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
NWAA330
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:18 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:06 pm

So why is this contract in place? Basically even if they wanted to NW could not order more of the a/c? It just seems to be such a perfect fit for their downsizing opporations.
To Fly is to Live.
 
BAGSMASHER
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:18 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:14 pm

Its all about the CRJs now, with NW having more than 100 on order and options for many more.
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:17 pm

So why is this contract in place? Basically even if they wanted to NW could not order more of the a/c? It just seems to be such a perfect fit for their downsizing opporations.

They couldn't order any more even if they wanted to, because they're not being made anymore. Plus, it's really been made obsolete by the latest generation of regional jets such as the EMB-170.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
NWAA330
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:18 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:19 pm

Right but it would seem that the CRJ's are geared more towards replacing the SAAB's becuase the travelling public prefers jets over prop a/c. But their have to be many downsizd routes that they would like to have an F/C on? At least routes that the DC9's are too large to handle. I think if given the chance NW would snatch more up in a minute.
To Fly is to Live.
 
NWAA330
Topic Author
Posts: 196
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 5:18 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:22 pm

Not being produced anymore? In that case.....hey how about those CRJ's? Laugh out loud

NWAA330
To Fly is to Live.
 
Guest

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 2:47 pm

Basically even if they wanted to NW could not order more of the a/c?
(this is highly generalized for easy understanding)
Under the current contracts in place with the pilots' unions, NW’s regional partners are allowed to operate (on behalf on NW) 36 jet aircraft with 51-69 seats, 54 jet aircraft with 46-50 seats and an unlimited number of jet aircraft with less than 46 seats. Thus, until that clause is changed, NW could not add any more ARJ to their fleet.

The bulk of the ARJ's leases expire in less than 4 years... I wouldn't be surprised if NW replaced them with CRJ-700 (which will likely be ordered if NW could change the clause, anyway) ... idealistically, NW could work out something like US that would enable them to purchase the EMB-175 or EMB-195 and fly them as mainline-express.

So why is this contract in place?
To protect mainline jobs -- regional jet pilots are payed very, very low wages.

CRJ's are geared more towards replacing the SAAB's
NW's used their most recent CRJ deliveries for expansion & to replace quite a bit of DC-9 flying ex-MEM. SF3 flying hasn't decreased within the last 12 months.

 
aviatortj
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 3:32 pm

Is anyone else kind of disappointed that the CRJ is becoming more prevalent than mainline. I mean, it is a very nice plane and my four CRJ flights are some of the smoothest flights I have ever had in a commercial airliner. I understand that it costs less for the airlines to operate these than DC-9's, but from a passenger standpoint I would much rather fly on a DC-9 or A319. Being 6'1", CRJ flights get LONG. My carry-on doesn't make it on board half of the time and the windows are too low for me to look out of without cramping up my neck. Don't get me wrong about the CRJ, I like it a lot! But I just do not see it as a good candidate for mainline flights. Does the EMB-170/190 resemble more of an Airbus or Canadair? Could NWA possibly place an order for the EMB at the end of the ARJ lease? I wish I knew more about all of these planes to understand the complete situation, but from a consumer/passenger standpoint, you would think comfort would be more of a consideration.

I am sorry if this is the wrong place for this 'rant' as I am still learning my way around here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Thanks.

~TJ
 
Guest

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:35 am

The RJ-85 (a fancy name for a BAe 146-200) ... whats so great ? One of the ugliest, most ungainly looking airplanes ever built (like almost every other British built plane) ... is also one of the loudest jets inside the cabin too-- has anyone ever had the misfortune to sit near the back ?

Glad theyre gone.
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 10:39 am

I thought it was called the "whisper jet" ?!?!??!
4 engines must not be very efficient..unless they are really weak.
Hey! Nobody must not fill up those F seats like to burlington other than 1 or 2 upgraders. I bet someone could ask for an upgrade?
And you probably don't get meals/snacks that nw mainline gives on longer Avro Routes.
-UN
What now?
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3437
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:35 pm

Actually, the scope clause that NW pilots have in their current contract calls for unlimited number of jets with less than 50 seats (hence the 44 seaters). The amount of 50 seat jets will be a function of the current mainline narrowbody fleet (increase = more 50 seaters, decrease = less 50 seateres and more 44 seaters). The 69 seat avros we're grandfathered into the current contract after the NW pilot strike and the clause says only 36 jets with no more than 69 seats can be operated and will only be operated by Mesaba Aviation. BAE Aerospace no longer manufactures the a/c so no new ones can be bought. However used ones can be brought online should they become available and the scop is relaxed over at NW.

The avro is the second generation Bac146 - with FADEC engines, more powerful engines, almost entirely glass cockpit, higher service ceiling, digital pressurization controls, faster cruise speed and other enhancements. So Tonyctnyc - it's not just a pretty name for the 146 - it's the same airframe but very very different. The loud fan you hear in the back is only the recirculating air fan - not an engine. This a/c is one of the quietest in the sky, that's why it's called the whisperjet. The fan usually gets turn to "fresh" once airborne, so the sound decreases. Who cares what it looks like? Airlines don't buy planes to satisfy the eye, but to satisfy the bottom line.

The avro, being twice the size and weight and having twice as many systems and engines is only 25% more fuel INEFFICIENT than the CRJ. This straight from the engineers in Woodford at the factory. It is the most profitable in the NW fleet right now - making NW TONS of money.

Meals are indeed served on many routes! No ovens onboard, so the same cold meals are served that NW serves on alot of their flights. Some meal segments are (in FC only): MSP-HPN/ASE/OKC/ORF/GSO/PIT, DTW-OKC/YHZ, MEM-ASE (probably MEM-PHL/EWR when we start in Sept). There were many more meal flights, but they were cut back post 9/11. Some meal flights were DTW-BHM and prior to 9/11 MSP-CVG! The avro is jjust a small mainline a/c operated by a Airlink partner. The planes are catered as if it were NW, look like NW on the inside and are serviced at jetways by mostly NW employees (depending on station). So there is VERY VERY little difference between NW and the avro service - ecept maybe being a little better.

I'm sure NW would in a heartbeat expand the 70 seat fleet if they could - but the NW pilots have a say in that. As IP said - the reason for these restrictions is for job protection. Even though currently, the majority of mainline pilot jobs have been lost to the widebody fleet adjustments, not because of airlink services. This came straight from NW ALPA. It's unfortunate though, that when times were good for NW they had no interest in befriending their "regional" brothers and sisters. Now that things are awful at mainline, they want to dance with us.


AZJ
 
UN_B732
Posts: 3529
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 12:57 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:13 am

So if I ever become NW elite.........you can dream. You get a meal on BTV-DTW??? If so, this would be the only flight out of BTV with a meal service, unless US F to PIT or PHL. or UA F/Y to ORD.
-UN
What now?
 
RJX
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:26 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:20 am

The bulk of the ARJ's leases expire in less than 4 years...


Why did Northwest leases these planes with such short leases. Do they plan to get rid of them starting 2007. I hope they keep them as they are the best plane in their fleet.
 
User avatar
ATA L1011
Posts: 1291
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 6:47 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:31 am

Actually if you wanted to go 6 abreast like Air Wisconsin (UA Express) you could get over 100 in the Avro 85/146-200 something like 112 at Max.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3437
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Why Didn't NW Order More RJ-85's?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 3:45 am

I haven't flown BTV yet - so I don't know for sure, but I doubt there is a meal. Oh yea - PWM-DTW is a brekky flight. THe RJ85 is on'y certified for 85 in the US - the 100 seat bac jets that Air Will yhas are the Bae146-300s or if it were an avro the Rj100.

The first 12 were bought and the last 24 were leased under 10 year terms. I'm sure they can be negotiated to be longer... no plans to get rid of them. I'll believe it when I see it too...



AZJ

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos