noelg
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Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:25 pm

I was reading the article about the 717 in Airliner World this month, and thought what a nice aircraft it was. Its a shame that it hasn't been more successful, would love to see these aircraft in more liveries!!

What "failed" aircraft (that flew or never got past the design stage) would you like to see more of now?

NoelG

 Big thumbs up
 
AJ
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:29 pm

Classified as overall failures but fond in my heart:
Boeing 767-400
Boeing 747SP
Boeing 747X
Fokker 70/100
 
GoAround
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:31 pm

Ooh... declaring the 717 project failed. That could be controversial  Big grin I'll keep out of this one!

GoAround
GoAround
 
Mike77
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 6:34 pm

The MD-11. I don't know if it was considered a failure, but I do know that it did not meet expectations due to a variety of reasons. I love those planes, and wish that more airlines flew them. I have never been on an MD-11, unfortunately. I have flown many times on the DC-10's on American, Northwest and Western, and I had always imagined the MD-11 to be a more powerful, sleeker version of those DC-10's.

To AJ: Why were the 747SP and 764 aircraft considered failures? I'm sorry to hear that. Those are cool planes!
 
petertenthije
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:09 pm

F70/100
FD-728
Tu-204
That westernized Il-96 (forgot name).
Concorde!
Attamottamotta!
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:21 pm

Petertejthije,
Come on, Conocrde never really failed did it? Its been in service for over 40 years and theres not much aircraft around now that have been in service for that long. Conocrde is being used more than twice a day. Its a shame that concorde wasnt' bought by other airlines. But I think its been an excellent 40 years for these birds. And its a shame that BA are retiring them. In my opinion Conocrde has been one of the most successful aircraft of all time, due to its long service and style!

regards,
Airplanepics
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
petertenthije
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:26 pm

Come on, Conocrde never really failed did it?

It may have flown a lot of miles, but a sales run of 15 or thereabouts can't be called succesful!
Attamottamotta!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:27 pm

The 747SP is a strange one for me, one of the routes it was specifically designed for was NYC - Tokyo nonstop, which the 747 classic couldn't do. Why JAL never bought any is a complete mystery. Maybe their flight attendents liked the stuffed polar bear in the lounge at Anchorage.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
lutfi
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 8:16 pm

VC10

B767 "humpback"

Saab 2000

Comet IV

A330-400

B7J7 (propfan)
 
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American 767
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:16 pm

The Dassault Mercure was definitely a failure. Only 12 were built, 11 of which went into service with French domestic airline Air Inter, the only operator of the type. Not only it wasn't successful but it was the only jetliner Dassault has ever made. I can understand that airlines much prefered the B737 over the Mercure because it had a short range compared to its US rival, but Dassault could have designed a Mercure ER to attract other carriers and compete with US built B737. I don't understand why not even Air France, France's major flag carrier, was interested in the Mercure.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
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Alessandro
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:19 pm

Tu-144 get my vote....
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:00 pm

The HS-748 is a really good aircraft, and wasn't too popular.
I've flown in it several times, a nice tough little airplane.


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VS340
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:10 pm

The Vickers VC-10, the De Havilland Comet, and the L1011 Tristar
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 10:25 pm

The L1011 was a partial failure with 250 being sold.
 
sllevin
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:50 pm

Convair's 990! How could you not love a plane with radical wing sweep, Whitcomb fairings ("speed humps") on the wings, and big rear-fan engines?

From a pilot's perspective, I've never met a pilot that flew one that didn't love it. I've had former 990 pilots talk about how great it was for hours on end!

Steve
 
fanofjets
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:52 pm

The Vickers Vanguard was a fine aircraft but quickly outclassed by more modern equipment.

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Tom in NO
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Mon Jul 28, 2003 11:57 pm

The L-1011 was one of the most popular civilian aircraft ever built, both with pilots and passengers. It was one of the biggest technological successes ever. It never suffered a crash due to the aircraft itself.

Unfortunately, it was a financial nightmare. I just finished reading "End of an Era: My Story of the L-1011" by James West, former President and CEO of Lockheed. An excellent book on the 1011, which, due to attitudes within Lockheed's high-level administration, was likely doomed from the start.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
DIA
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:10 am

How about the A342, the 753 and the 736? The Dassault Mercure was a good example above too. I suggest these with only sheer order numbers compare to "successful" airliners. These three just haven't sold well.
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Boeing727
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:29 am

What about the B747-300, not many sold either.

Boeing727
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:35 am

I think the reason why JL never bought the 747SP was the fact the major sacrifice in pax/cargo capacity was something JL disliked. So when the 747-200B versions with more efficient engines and the ability to carry extra fuel capacity became available to JL, they bought this plane instead, which could fly from JFK to NRT with only a small sacrifice in pax/cargo capacity compared with the regular 747-200B. Indeed, one of these specially-made JL 742B's is credited with the fastest flight from JFK to NRT--an amazing time of just over 11 hours!
 
Paulianer
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:51 am

Just one thought -> MD-11


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GDB
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:27 am

VC-10, 747SP, Vanguard, BAC 1-11 (did ok, but with development of airframe and engines it could have done a lot better), Mercure (odd that the planned CFM-56 powered version was not proceded with), Bristol Britannia, CV-990.

Concorde has not been flying for 40 years, though it may seem like that!
Prototype first flew in 1969, first pax services in 1976.

Without this version, it is hard to see how further sales could have happened, but then we are probably talking about twice or three times as many sales, which would have made life much easier;
http://concordesst.com/concordeb.html

The HS-748 did OK sales wise, in production for over 20 years, though it helps to remember what 'good' sales are nowdays, you expect more sales as air travel has expanded into a bigger market.
 
Greg
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:56 am

There is absolutely no reason the MD-11 should have been more popular.

It was easitly outshadowed technically and economically by the 340 and 777.

Also, the inherent design flaws making it unstable in some flight regimes (slow speed flight) are again a good example of MD rushing a product to the marketplace. Had it been available five years earlier.....this post would likely not include the MD-11

It's may be nice for enthusiasts (definetely one of the more interesting looking aircraft)..but it was easitly overshadowed by much more capable competition.
 
na
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:00 am

I would have wished more success for the 747SP. Hundreds of them instead of the comparatively boring 777 that is of similar size and range will remain a dream.
 
Guest

RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:02 am

Hey DIJKKIJK:

Check again -- the BAe/HS 748 was very definitely popular - - though not as popular as its rival, The Fokker F27 (my favorite plane) , The 748 flew in large numbers all over the world !! In fact, small numbers, I'm sure, are still flying !

The 748 was the inspration for the bigger failure-- the ATP .. which was a newer model stretch of the 748 which sat approx 65. That bottomed out quickly, thank god. AN awful, ungainly, slow, bad plane.

To add to the list of failed planes, i wish the Fokker 50 was able to have had more of a chance !
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:28 am

Concorde
TU144
764ER
764ERX*
747X*
753



*never flew
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
shankly
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:09 am

The King of them all is the beautiful VC-10.

Loved by pilots, crew and pax alike it was slagged off by BOAC, in what turned out to be totally unjustified criticism. At one point it seemed like the VC might be the answer to the US airlines South American commitments, in the same way as it loyally served BOAC and later BA on its African and Middle Eastern routes. But it wasn't to be and the rest is now sad history.

My favourite and true VC storey is of BOAC Captains wishing the crews of Pan Am and TWA 707 a happy flight as they departed LHR for JFK...the same VC-10 crew would be waiting at Kennedy to welcome the 707's home, having passed them over the Atlantic. Speed clearly does not drive commercial success (see also CV990 and Concorde)
L1011 - P F M
 
trintocan
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:14 am

The Mercure - THAT is the one. Now if only it had better range characteristics it would have sold more and thus given greater impetus for the later CFM56 powered concept. It suffered by having poor range and being in a hotly-contested category (with DC-9, 737 and 1-11 all there and offering far greater range). Alas, it was designed closely to Air Inter's requirements and in some respects was not even adequate - when fully loaded it could not get right across France. The Government of the time pressured Air Inter into buying the original 10 planes it did and Dassault into building them despite the absence of the 75 orders it wanted.

Think about that - it was a major international collaborative effort and if it were successful it could have shot down Airbus at the outset - or forced a merger. Now think about the aerospace industry today if that had happened -combined Airbus/Dassault could have knocked down one or more of the US manufacturers at an earlier stage by offering a wider range of craft.

TrintoCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
elwood64151
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:20 am

GoAround:

I've never been one to choose the "better part of valor"!

I would choose the MD-90. Only, what? 120 were built? Something like that.

Anyway, it was a remarkable aircraft, even with its technical glitches. I hope that the 717 does not suffer the same fate. If NW would simply get off its butt and replace its DC-9s, or DL get rid of its 732s, or AA decide not to use aircraft built by an out-of-business mfr (Fokker), then the 717 might just makes its "place in this world" (thank you MWS).

Cheers!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
CV990
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:22 am


Hi!

My creteria for this topic is actually the number of airframes produced. I can't put in that list the L1011 or the MD11 because actually they had some good numbers produced. I think the most popular airliner that actually was not produced in mass numbers but everybody said good things about it was no doubt the Vickers VC10/Super VC10. The plane was really beautifull, the operation was good and I've seen a lot of people praising a lot this airplane. I read in one Air International that when BOAC compared the operational costs of the VC10/Super VC10 with the 707 the VC10 was better than the 707. Why it was not mass produced? I don't know, maybe prices, UK labour was always high standard but always very expensive. In BOAC it was just a matter of politics, BOAC and BA never liked to invest a lot in UK aviation!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:21 am

the 717 project. very nice equipment.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:54 am

As popular as the DC-9 was, the 717 should be making just as popular. ALL DC9 operators should be replacing their 9s with 712s. JMHO
Puhdiddle
 
sayem55
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 11:26 am

Here is my list
1) DeHaviland Comet: - It was the first commercial jet.
2) Tu-144:- First supersonic commercial jet...rolled-out before Concorde.
3) DHC Dash 8 :- ( I don't know why  Smile )
StarFighter
 
MD-90
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:06 pm

MD-90 and MD-11 (too bad a new wing wasn't possible for either of them)

VC-10

Caravelle

717 still has hope

I'd say the L-1011 was successful enough not to be included on this list.
 
MarcoPolo747
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:23 pm

The VC-10 is top on the list for me ! I had the opportunity to fly VCP(S.Paulo - Viracopos) to LGW with British Caledonian in it and it has impressed me for its extremely quiet cabin, smooth flight and very soft touchdowns (we made intermediate stops at GIG and LIS).

The CV 990A Coronado was very impressive also. For a while RG operated its Coronados from CGH that has a 1600m runway ! Although very noisy it was faster than its rivals, a kind of Maseratti of the skies.

The L188 Electra was a wonderful plane also after the modifications.
 
skymileman
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:34 pm

First thing that Popped into my mind was the Dassault Mercure. I don't know the details on why it was unpopular, but it is cool looking, and that is good enough for me.
 
skymileman
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:36 pm

Oh, I forgot One Thing, It hurt when Fairchild-Dornier went down, I was looking forward to seeing the 728, 928, and 528 in commercial service.
 
usair330
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Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 12:40 pm

The Spruce Goose!!!! Nothing else to say...
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 1:32 pm

I see a lot of people think the VC-10, Caravelle, Comet, L-1011 and MD-11 as failures. That's quite intersting as all were quite successful in their own right. No, they didn't sell 1000 but so what?

The "Spruce Goose" and the Mercure I would count as failures. the Do.328-300 is another. Also the Lockheed Constitution. That one is my own personal favorite. The list of aircraft that never flew is endless so I won't go there.

And who on earth could call the DHC-8 a failure? That is just silly.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
masseybrown
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 2:21 pm

It's not a commercial airliner, but I'm sorry the Beech/Raytheon Starship wasn't more successful.


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codeshare
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 3:07 pm

MD-11
all the way. I think there were even plans of and MD-12X. I wonder if Boeing scrapped the 777 project, would it redesign the MD-11?

Next up:
767-100 (instead of 757) - didn't make it, propably would've looked like a 737-600 - short and bubbly.

codeshare
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ERJ135
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 4:28 pm

Not a failure as such but I would love to have seen the A340 with propfan engines as was originally planned, it's just a pity the engine manufacturers bailed on that one. While directed at economical operations it would still be an incredible sight.
I remember when the DC-3 was new!
 
GDB
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 6:03 pm

The VC-10 was designed for routes to Africa and the far East for BOAC, allowing a jet to operate out of restricted airfields, hence it's superb performance.
The original 'Standard' version was too closely optimized for BOAC, but the longer 'Super' version had a wider appeal, although originally the 'Super was to be longer still, seating up to 212, DC-8-60 series territory.

However, BOAC had a change of heart, first 3 Standards were cancelled, then 13 Supers. Out of 45 planned, 15 Standards and 30 Supers, BOAC took just 12 and 17 of each respectively.
More 707s were ordered, Vickers had to duped again, in the mod 50's they were building the 707-class V.1000 to a BOAC/RAF requirement, then BOAC decided that long range turboprops like the Britannia were the way to go, so that was the end of the V.1000, then under construction.
Months later, BOAC brought 707-400s.

History repeated in the 60's, many airlines in Africa, the mid and far East and South America were very interested in the VC-10, but when trade delegations out to sell the VC-10 arrived at a prospective customer, they found that BOAC had told prospective airlines that they needed a subsidy to operate it, despite BOAC knowing full well by then that the aircraft was extremely popular with passengers, even on the tough competitive North Atlantic routes.
Operating figures were distorted to make the VC-10 look bad, this an aircraft designed for BOAC!

Limiting sales kept production costs high, which meant that neither BAC/Vickers or the government, were ready to further improve the type, plans for lengthened versions (back to the original 212-seat Super spec.), with improved engines, never happened.
BAC were even designing a double-deck version, seating 264, but with so much negativity on BOAC's part already, it was never going to happen, who would trust them again?

Ironically the VC-10s that were built went on to be about the most popular aircraft BOAC/BA ever had, with crews and pax, well into the widebody age customers would ask for a VC-10.



 
AngelAirways
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:06 pm

the VC-10 yep agree with post 42...

so then the russians at Ilyushin liked the idea, made the Il-62 et voila... they're still flying actively in service to this very day. sorry vickers  Smile
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:21 pm

I´m really surprised no one mentioned the VFW 614 so far (how unpatriotic of Paulianer and Na  Wink/being sarcastic ) - the first airliner to be built in post war Germany. Like many failed a/c (Coronado, TriStar, in a way Concorde too) this a/c was way ahead of its times.

Thank God (and Frank Borman) the A300 (and thereby the whole idea of Airbus) barely scraped by that fate.


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BHXviscount
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:59 am

Reading through all the posts above it seems that a "failed " aircraft means different things to different people. Try applying the following to some of the above mentioned aircraft...........

1 the amount of aircraft sold
2 how long in service
3 the cost/profit of the manufacturer



BHXviscount.

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s.p.a.s.
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 5:29 am

The CBA-123 Vector...(http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.cgi?120480 and off course de MD11 could have been more successful..

Cheers

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
srbmod
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 7:33 am

What's interesting is that Embraer looked at putting the engines on the ERJ in much the same manner as the VFW 614, but the idea died pretty quick. The Concorde was a failure because it became a victim of the 1970s fuel price rises and the environmentalists (look how long they fought to keep the Concorde out of JFK and IAD). Concorde had a large number of orders that were cancelled because airlines couldn't afford to operate them because the price of fuel had risen.

My choice for failed airliner is the MD-87. Only 75 of them were ever built (representing 6% of the total number of MD-80 series of a/c), it should have been the ideal replacement a/c for the DC-9-40s and -50s.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 8:17 am

NoelG, you're jumping the gun with the 717 which appears to have future prospects with existing operators and is being touted to the Star Alliance.

AJ & ConcordeBoy, the 747X can't be considered a failure as it was never launched. Ditto the 767-400ERX, with which it shared engines.

Concorde (on which I've just flown-WOW!), undeniably a commercial failure, though an operational triumph, UNLIKE the Soviet TU-144. The 'B' model GDB mentioned had many wothwhile enhancements but without a stretch to increase capacity, I don't see how it could've been any more successful.

"Also the Lockheed Constitution."
If you meant Constellation, that didn't do so bad, with military as well as civil variants. That's also one of MY personal favorites-what an incredible beauty!

"I would choose the MD-90. Only, what? 120 were built? Something like that."

Well, Elwood64151, that plane was only in its' 3rd year of full-rate production when Boeing, having just absorbed MDD, elected to close the line to avoid it competing with its' own 737 (according to the book, Modern Boeing Jetliners). Who knows how successful it might've become. The MD-11, however, must certainly qualify as its' order book (and MDD's own viability) was truncated by its' early performance shortfalls, fixed too late for it to maintain sales momentum.

I'd add the 737-600, though a simple derivative to this list, as it appears the similar spec'd A318 will exceed its' market performance. Guess cockpit commonality/common-type rating matters somewhat in this market niche.


 
jrlander
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RE: Which "failed" Plane Should Be More Popular?

Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:52 pm

I would have to say the 767-400. I wish Boeing had built it with more range from the start, and had built it a bit earlier. I think that many more would have sold.

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