Sabena332
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Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:47 am

I noticed that most of the flights from Europe to South Africa (as well as South Africa to Europe) are departing at night and arrive in the morning. I think that KL has one day flight from AMS to JNB, LX had a day flight but they also switched to a night flight a few month ago.

Does anyone know why? As a passenger I would prefer to start here in the morning and arrive at South Africa in the evening. I can also not understand why the planes are standing all day long on the ramp, it would be more economical when they are flying back after a normal turnaround time.

Can anyone explain?

Patrick
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jcs17
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:52 am

Personally, I dont think it makes too much sense either. First of all, evening flights make it a day-long connection in Europe if you are coming from North America. Then, to make matters worse, you have an aircraft sitting on the ground in JNB for 12-14 hours for the return flight.
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Leezyjet
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:56 am

I would think that a majority of passengers prefer it the way it is otherwise the airlines would look to change it if they received alot of complaints.

Also it means that the passengers can sleep on the flight on the way down and arrive ready to do business or whatever straight away so not wasting a day of their holiday/business trip travelling when they could be doing other things.

The VS flight from LHR-CPT-LHR was a daytime flight and the crews hated it. As South African people are quite demanding at the best of times, at least most would be asleep on an overnight flight, but they are awake during the daytime flights and as it is such a long flight they would constantly run out of food and drinks on the return leg due to the high demands of the passengers.

 Smile
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godbless
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 12:57 am

SAA once had a midday flight from LHR but it didn't seem to work. But I can understand that for business trips it makes more sense to leave here at night and arrive in the morning giving you a whole day yet. And that way people save a night at a hotel. Seems to make sense keeping the planes on the ground for so long. Qantas does the same on flights to Europe and they seem to earn some money there too...

Max
 
Guest

RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:17 am

Godbless, i think that would be a poor company, if they can't their coworkers an overnight in a hotel. Also lots of companies would like to see their people fit when they are working. And a flight per night doesn't make anybody fit in economy, maybe in business. But therefor you can buy a couple of overnights.
And Qantas has to fly overnight cause of the length of the trip. I don't think there is a more efficient way to fly overnight, and they don't have a chance. What would happen, QF arrives at 5.30 am in FRA, when should it leave to have good times for all the destionations?
 
Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:27 am

Jcs17 made an interesting point here, the late daparture time in Europe makes a USA to South Africa via Europe flight very long. The US flights are mostly arrive in the morning, if you are continue to travel to South Africa you need a hotel room for the day or you have to hang around in the terminal all the day.

But as some members already mentioned, it seems that a lot of people prefer the night flights because otherwise the airlines had already changed the departure times.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Guest

RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:29 am

But why should people from the us make a stop in europe just for aircraft-change?
And lots of people hate night-flights, they can't sleep, very little space to sleep, loud, too excited, etc.
So night-flights also can be horror-trips.
 
Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:33 am

But why should people from the us make a stop in europe just for aircraft-change?

Why not? There are not so many direct flights from the USA to South Africa

And lots of people hate night-flights, they can't sleep, very little space to sleep, loud, too excited, etc.
So night-flights also can be horror-trips.


I agree with you Stefan, I hate it also to fly at night because I am a very tall guy (1,90m), it is impossible for me to sleep in Economy Class and I am too poor to buy Business Class tickets.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
Guest

RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:34 am

and imagine, Patrick, how many overnights you can get for the difference eco/busi
 
TriStar500
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:37 am

Actually, flying overnight makes a lot of sense:

One important point you seem to be neglecting is the connecting traffic on one or both ends. Most longhauls between European cities and CPT or JNB cannot rely on O&D traffic alone, so they have to be fed at one or both ends by short- and medium haul traffic.

By leaving early in the morning and arriving somewhen in the evening, the number of connections is greatly limited to maybe just the first or very last hub bank. On the other hand, a flight in the evening is both fed by several banks in the afternoon and evening.
Also, it is suited very well to business travellers, who are able to work in the country of departure an entire day before leaving directly to the airport or to their feeder flight which will take them to the departure point for the longhaul flight. Upon arrival, there are several outbound banks to disperse the longhaul traffic. Also, business passengers are able to work a full day at their destination (unless they have to take a very long onward flight).

Hope this helps.  Smile

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Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:39 am

Yes, you can sleep in a five star hotel and you would still save money, compared to a Business Class fare.

I can also imagine that a day flight is quite interesting when you have a window seat, you could see the Sahara, the jungle and much more from Africa`s landscape.

Patrick
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Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:46 am

Jens, you are correct, the number of connecting passergers is higher on evening flights and it makes sense for airlines which have only one daily flight to JNB or CPT but I can not understand that South African also offers only night flights, they have three (or two) flights from LHR to JNB and all are departing in the evening, for me it would make more sense when they would also offer a day flight. An other example: LH and SA from FRA to JNB, both are partners, one airline could offer a day flight and the other a night flight, so every passenger could take the flight he prefers. I can imagine that they would still getting a lot of connecting passengers from Germany and other European countries if one of these flight would start at around 10am.

Patrick
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TriStar500
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:52 am

Patrick,
You are talking about a very interesting point here. Ona high frequency route like LON-JNB, when three or more flights are leaving to the same longhaul destination within an hour or so, there seems to be room for more schedule flexibility. It would be intersting to see the economic numbers on routes, where day- and nighttime longhauls are already offered like NYC-LON.
Is the passenger mix more low-yield on daytime flights? Are passengers less satisified sitting in the aircraft seemingly (due to the time difference) all day? Mayb eit is because it seems like one has lost an entire day (on eastbound longhauls) that day flights are not very popular.

However, this is no answer to North-South flights with little or no time difference like between Europe and South Africa.

Interesting topic...
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Crosswind
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Takeoff Performance!

Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:29 am

The most important consideration nobody has mentioned, which I can assure you the airlines have thought a lot about is aircraft performance!

Johannesburg is a classic "hot-and-high" airport, and temperatures soar during the day. Add in to the equation a widebody departing at close to MTOW and you have a potential problem, of having to leave passengers, baggage or cargo behind. At the best of times a heavy departure from Johannesburg will be MTOW limited to a greater or lesser extent.

To ensure you are able to carry a useful payload out of JNB you are forced to schedule your Europe-bound departures in the evening. Working back, it's impossible to have Europe-South Africa day flight that leaves at a reasonable time and arrives in time to operate a reasonably timed flight back to Europe.

If an airline is going to schedule a ground time of 10hrs+ down route there is usually a better reason than passenger preference! If that were the main reason, most airlines would have by now rescheduled a normal turnaround on cost grounds, and the passengers would have little choice!

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LJ
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:41 am

As of the next winter schedule all KLM flights to JNB will be day time flights and the CPT will be a night flight (subject to change). The reason [prpbably being the fact that KLM doesn't want its B747 to stand idle at JNB for an entire day.

BTW JNB is scheduled for 3 Combis and 4 full pax a week
 
MD80Nut
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:52 am

It's not just Europe-South Africa flights that are operated at night. Flights between the US and deep South America are also operated at night, same for the deep South America to US flights. I've flown from Miami to Buenos Aires, Santiago, Rio de Janeiro and Sao Paulo and back, and all flights were overnighters except one. It's not uncommon here in Miami to see planes from South American airlines parked at the remote stands during the day waiting for evening departures.

I hate those overnight flights too, especially since I have to fly economy. But it seems people and/or the airlines prefer them, so that's the way it is.
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DoorsToManual
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 3:52 am

I can also imagine that a day flight is quite interesting when you have a window seat, you could see the Sahara, the jungle and much more from Africa`s landscape.

Absolutely. I had a couple of great experiences overflying Africa during the day. Let me list them for you:

Most recently, Virgin A340 from CPT to LHR. As you mentioned, the Sahara was AWESOME and timed perfectly, as we started to overfly it during sunset. Can you imagine? It was simply the best experience I have ever had...the fantastic cabin staff of Virgin, coupled with the excellent IFE made this one of the best flights I have ever taken.

The Captain even asked permission from the ATC authorities to make a short sightseeing tour of Table Mountain, Robben Island (on which Mandela spent many years imprisoned), and generally the beautiful beaches in that area. I can't begin to describe how awesome it was to fly so low and experience those steep banking angles so that the wing was clear of the view!! Just incredible....I understand other airline crew try to perform the same little 'tour'. As we departed early, I guess we were lucky.

Another time was actually at night, as we flew over Nouakchott on the BA evening service to CPT (we have a house there, that's why I've flown regularly there). Two great things: the shooting stars. The green glow from beneath the overlying clouds, as we flew over various west African cities...I believe the rest of the flight was conducted over water, right until the descent off the Cape Town coast...

I also remember flying "Blue Crane" an SAA A320, from NBO-JNB...we saw LOTS of interesting stuff...including the Victoria falls and some large dam, who's name I have unfortunately forgotten. The best part was the storm at JNB...African storms...they're great, especially at night!  Big thumbs up

I guess we flew over the Sahara quite a lot with BA, when they had the daylight NBO-LHR flights (they had 2 dailies, one was the morning departure from NBO.)

And then there was MH on that silly EZE-CPT-JNB-KUL route (we flew from EZE to JNB and vice versa). Also great views and they are DAYLIGHT flights.

Conclusion: flying over Africa is great! (lots of turbulence and fantastic storms...)

 
luv2fly
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:01 am

Another consideration is, and I am not sure what the crew rest time actually is, it looks like the plane is on the ground for a minimum of 12 hours, so could they being using the same crew on the return as the outbound? After they have had 12 hours off between flights?
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Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:17 am

DoorsToManual,

thanks a lot for your little trip reports, very interesting! I have been one time in South Africa but both flights were night departures and I had an aisle seat, so I couldn`t see anything.

Patrick
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swissgabe
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 4:20 am

When Swissair had codeshare on SAAs night flight they didn't really care about their day flight. Now as it has been mentioned, Swiss got a night flight as well since the demand is much higher for that.

Especially tour operators save two hotel nights in the program with a night flight. My personally, I prefer to leave in the late night and save a "holiday". Same goes for the flight back, I prefer to arrive in the early morning back in Europe.

Carriers such as KL and LH fly JNB-CPT vv. to get some more revenue and that the aircraft doesn't stand the whole day at JNB.
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Iflymidwexprss
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:14 am

I definitely agree with those who talked about the horrendously long trips from the USA to South Africa. I flew UA/LH from the U.S. to FRA to JNB to CPT in May (T.R. coming soon, I swear...), and it was a beast. Two consecutive nights in coach, with 10 hours in FRA during the day--it was tough. Totally worth it for the amazing experience of visiting South Africa, but holy crap was it looooong. I definitely would have preferred an a.m. connection out of FRA. But, I get the business and technical considerations, so I guess that's life.  Smile
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DoorsToManual
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:19 am

Hey,

Just out of interest, last time I was in CPT (Jan) I noticed the SAA/DL flight to ATL via Ilha do Sal - that still going?
 
Iflymidwexprss
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 5:26 am

I picked up the SAA timetable at CPT in May, and it showed the flights from CPT/JNB to ATL stopping in Sal, with the U.S. to South Africa flights going nonstop.

[Edited 2003-08-04 22:27:18]
 
gkirk
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:14 am

To be honest, if you fly USA-S.A via Europe, then, especially if you fly BA, you shouldnt have to wait that long as the number of flights that BA have into LHR from the USA means that there are flights arriving at LHR from the US at all times of the day.
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9V-SVE
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 10:01 am

If people want to fly to South Africa from the US, why don't they just fly to ATL or JFK and catch SAA's flights?
 
johnboy
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:32 am

Actually I chose BA to fly to South Africa last December because of comments regarding superior service on this very board.

Although I live in the San Francisco area, I departed from PHX as I have family there (and it was Xmas time). The PHX flight departed at around 2030-2100 in the evening and arrived at LHR at about 1300-1400 the next day. Believe it or not, that was one of the better flight connections for South Africa, as it was one of the latest US West Coast flights to arrive.

Knowing the awful connection times for Africa flights, I chose to visit AMS for a few days, then make the trip to JNB.

A colleague of mine is from Kenya, and she chooses to fly KLM because she says the connection times are much better, and she doesn't have to wait around all day. Maybe that's changed since I spoke with her, but she says she used to fly BA,and hated just waiting around after flying all night from the US.
 
jcs17
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 1:51 pm

If people want to fly to South Africa from the US, why don't they just fly to SA - Georgia">ATL or SA - New York">JFK and catch SAA's flights?

First of all, a lot of people, especially those who do business in SA are usually upper elite members of a specific alliance. Whats the point of doing 16000 miles of travel if you do not have very many miles on DL or cannot secure upgrades for the segments. Secondly, the SA - New York">JFK flight is very inconvienient for connections outside of the northeast. The SA - Georgia">ATL flight is somewhat better, but I believe it leaves SA - Georgia">ATL at around 1030, a few cities (especially those in the Mountain Time Zone) flights havent even arrived in SA - Georgia">ATL by that time. Or if youre coming from the west coast, youre waiting for 4-5 hours for the connecting flight to JNB.

It still makes no sense to me, why cant an airline leave Europe at 900AM, arrive JNB at 700P-800P, and then make a return trip back to Europe at 1000PM-1100PM...You'd avoid the hot and high conditions, the a/c wouldnt be on the ground in JNB for hours at a time, and the flight would still arrive back in Europe with plenty of time for North American passengers to make their connections.
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jettrader
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:26 pm


"...why cant an airline leave Europe at 900AM, arrive JNB at 700P-800P, and then make a return trip back to Europe at 1000PM-1100PM..."

Because...as someone else has suggested, it is usually the same crew on the return flight.

Many airlines prefer not to base crews at some remote destinations (I believe it is true to say SAA no longer have any European based crews, hence their lengthy stopovers this end) so a day on the ground is required to allow the same crew to operate the return flight.

Regards,
JT
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rednose
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:41 pm

Being originally from Cape Town and still flying there on average three times a year from LHR and having tried all the major airlines, some comments.

It is true that JNB is "hot and high" and this fact causes problems for the airlines. If memory serves me correctly, then I recall reading that JNB is not the highest and not the hottest, but definetly the combination "hottest and highest" commercial airport in the world.

In the days of the B707, water injection was used during take-off to enable the aircraft to get off the ground.

Around 1997, 1998, BA had a flight departing CPT at about 09:00 in the morning and arriving LHR at about 19:00. I never did fly on that one myself, but friends did and they appear to have enjoyed it. At the moment, VS, when they fly to CPT during the South African summer season, have a flight departing LHR at 17:00 and arriving CPT at 07:00. This aircraft then departs CPT at 09:30 for arrival in LHR at 19:00. I have flown on this particular flight on several occasions. The pax never appear to come to rest and the crew, especially in Upper Class, where they serve the Freedom Menu, never get a moments rest. As for the view of Africa during the day, in about six day time flights, I think there has been only one occasion when it was not covered with cloud for most of the way (including dust over the Sahara). Then one is often requested to keep the shutters down, so that people can try and sleep or watch a movie. Off course, the CPT - LHR flight is over water for a very large part going up the West coast of Africa. Don't get me wrong here, I'm just pointing out some of the issues of the day flight. I personally have always enjoyed it.

EK operates flights to JNB that depart DXB at about 03:30 and 10:00 and arriving at about 10:00 and 16:00. Both turn around in about four hours. The later one I have also flown on several occasions. The view of the bush can be awsome on a clear day.

I think that more variety and choice would be good especially between partner airlines and may even go down well with the travelling public.
 
Guest

RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 7:48 pm

Jet Trader: "... a day on the ground is required to allow the same crew to operate the return flight."

So is it allowed for a crew to arrive in the morning and leaving same night? Flight is about 11 hrs to south-africa.

QF arrives in FRA at 05.30 after a 12-hrs-flight and leaves at 23.55 same day. Crew has two overnights in Mainz then before leaving for sin again.

 
FlySwiss
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:15 pm

A business man prefers a night flight from Europe to South Africa or vs.
He can work the whole day in Europe and can have a meeting next morning in South Africa.

The Company can save a lot of money, working hours and hotel costs.
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mandala499
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Tue Aug 05, 2003 8:37 pm

My guess apart from hot and high is that 9am slots for long haul out of europe will be a nightmare. You got FL280 - FL380 clogged with short haul traffic... so, your heavy long hauler must stay below FL280 because there's not "slot" at their optimum altitude (say FL300/310)... Staying at FL280 over most of Europe until you're in clearer airspace before you climb costs a lot of money as you're carrying more fuel instead of cargo.

Another guess is that J class pax would rather sleep on the plane than waste the day in the air. Say you're in London and need to go to SA on business. If you pick the evening flight, you can spend the day finalising arrangements with your colleagues in SA or prepare more things... then fly in the evening, sleep on the plane, and arrive, check into your hotel, take a shower and go straight to your meeting.

If you take the morning flight... The day before... you can't really say "see you tomorrow" to your colleagues in SA after finalising all the schedules for your meetings. You're not going to work late to finish off last minute material either, your colleagues in SA have also gone home so you can't refer to them for what's needed, plus, you don't want to miss your flight in the morning... Then, you spend the whole day on the plane, arriving after working hours... where what you'll do is probably go and review the material you have before going to the bar to get wasted! *or stay in the hotel business center while you reprint the documents you forgot at a cost*.

For Y Class Pax on holidays. Why add an extra day due to flying when you can spend it on your holiday destination!

Cargo is another issue... Most cargo get collected from around the region during the day and get pooled by the time the long hauler leave in the evening. This allows the freight companies to say "next day delivery"... if the planes go leave in the morning... by the time the cargo is pooled and ready for the aircraft, it'll have to wait for the next morning. Spend the whole day on the plane and will only reach the receiver in the early hours of the second day...

Scheduling is another issue... Assuming same timezone here...
Europe - SA: 0900-1900
SA - Europe: 2100-0700

This leaves only 2 hrs for the turnarounds on both ends. So, they need to use 2 aircraft for a daily route. Your crew have to layover because they can't go back immediately.

If:
Europe - SA: 2100-0700
SA - Europe: 2100-0700

You still need 2 planes, and if you want your crew to go on minimum rest, they can go back in the evening (cheaper negotiable hotel rates), or give them layover, but the airline retains flexibility depending on general crewing situation.

Mandala499
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Crosswind
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RE: Crew Rest

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:00 am

An airline wouldn't roster the same crew to operate a UK-South Africa-UK round trip.

The duty period for the LHR-JNB leg would be in excess of 12 hours, so the crews minimum rest is therefore in excess of 12 hours, and they report 1 hour before STD. Any delay on the inbound flight will give you an FTL delay on the return.

No airline would schedule crews on a daily longhaul flight of that length to take absolute minimum rest before operating again. It just isn't practical, or sensible to operate that way.

Think about it in human terms...
You are approaching Heathrow at 6am, your crew have been on duty for 24 hours out of the last 36 hours.
They worked all night on the way down to South Africa, they did their best to sleep during the day while being disturbed by cleaners and people talking outside their room, and have just operated all night back to the UK.

That isn't a desirable situation from a point-of-view of crew fatigue.

Crews sometimes do have to take minimum rest downroute, but only when operational/technical/weather problems have disrupted the normal schedule and forced this situation. Taking minimum rest prevents further delaying a flight, and the crews involved are usually compensated by an extra day (or two!) off when they return home - it doesn't happen often, at least in my airline.

Regards
CROSSWIND

[Edited 2003-08-05 17:32:35]
 
Sabena332
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:15 am

Some of you mentioned very interesting facts, thanks a lot for all your replies!

Patrick
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gigneil
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:27 am

I didn't see this mentioned but...

A fair bit of the reason is timezones. Like the US and South America, many of the cities are only an hour or two apart. Daylight flights mean you literally lose the entire day due to the duration of the flight.

Overnight flights give business travellers the maximum benefit of their trip with the minimum actual elapsed time...

N
 
ZSSNC
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:37 am

JetTrader,

while SAA does not have any Europe based flight crews they still spend more than just the day on the ground. All of the SAA crews stay at least one night in Europe before returning to RSA. Btw, SAA cabin crew operates a maximum of two to three long haul flights per month. Then they rotate on domestic and regional traffic.

ZSSNC
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jrebel
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RE: Europe To South Africa, Why Mostly At Night?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:45 pm

  • "...why cant an airline leave Europe at 900 AM, arrive JNB at 700P-800P, and then make a return trip back to Europe at 1000 PM-1100 PM..."

    Because...as someone else has suggested, it is usually the same crew on the return flight"

    KL591 departs AM), Netherlands">AMS at 10.00, arriving in JNB 20.40. KL592 departs JNB 22.40, arriving in AM), Netherlands">AMS at 9.30+1. So not only can it be done, KLM are doing it. No, it is not the same crew on the return.
    KL591/592 currently operates 3/W, but will go to daily starting October 26. A very bad idea! I guess KLM figure that demand to SA is insatiable, so that they will fill their planes no matter what.


  • "all KLM flights to JNB will be day time flights and the CPT will be a night flight (subject to change)."

    Starting March 29, 2004, KLM will replace the daily night flights to CPT with 5/w day flights.

  • "One important point you seem to be neglecting is the connecting traffic on one or both ends. Most longhauls between European cities and CPT or JNB cannot rely on O&D traffic alone, so they have to be fed at one or both ends by short- and medium haul traffic."

    Exactly! If you arrive in JNB late evening you are stuck, whereas a morning arrival offers convenient connections to a host of domestic and regional destinations. This fact alone is sufficient reason for me to drop KL as preferred carrier to JNB.


  • "Is the passenger mix more low-yield on daytime flights?"

    Ask KLM. Anecdotally, my experience is that the evening flights (KL593/594) are always packed in C (and Y too, for that matter), whereas C is often only half full on KL591/592.


  • "To ensure you are able to carry a useful payload out of JNB you are forced to schedule your Europe-bound departures in the evening."

    Temperatures in JNB are lower early morning that early evening, when most longhaul flights depart.


  • "Jcs17 made an interesting point here, the late departure time in Europe makes a USA to South Africa via Europe flight very long. The US flights are mostly arrive in the morning, if you are continue to travel to South Africa you need a hotel room for the day or you have to hang around in the terminal all the day."

    I don't think two consecutive longhaul flights are something to look forward to! I should prefer a day or night of rest and recuperation between flights.


  • "I can also imagine that a day flight is quite interesting when you have a window seat, you could see the Sahara, the jungle and much more from Africa's landscape"

    For those of you who like looking out the window, I can recommend KL565 AM), Netherlands">AMS-NBO. With a bit of luck you will have great views of the Alps, and then, flying just east of the Nile from a point south of Cairo to beyond Khartoum, you can enjoy a spectacular Sahara sunset, with desert and river bathed in golden light.


  • johan