voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:29 pm

Just wondering if a list of 5th freedom flights might make an interesting, if
not potentially useful, thread. I am still kicking myself for not having tried
to book Air Namibia London - Heathrow to Frankfurt - Main 744 a few years back when it suited me
to a T, because I did not know it existed. It might be useful to some of us
one day if we could keep some flights in mind.

Perhaps I can start:

Varig:
London - Heathrow to Copenhagen - Kastrup 777
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
David_itl
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:33 pm


MAN-JFK on PIA

David
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:35 pm

SIN-FRA and EWR/ORD-BRU on SQ.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Ikarus
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:35 pm

Ryanair. Most of their flights.  Laugh out loud

www.airevents.de keeps track of the interesting ones available to Germanic nations (eg there's supposed to be Zurich-Gatwick on Air Seychelles etc.)
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:38 pm

KU LHR-JFK 777
AI LHR-JFK 744
ANZ LHR-LAX 744
UAL had LHR-BRU, don't know if they still operate this route.
SQ SIN-BRU-MAN

In Arsene we trust!!
 
pzurita1
Posts: 1199
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:40 pm

From Mexico:

MEX-YVR in JL
MEX-PTY in LB
CUN-MIA in IB


We can also add:

GRU-EZE with a number of airlines: LH, AF, BA, LX
EZE-SCL with BA

Aerocontinente (PE) has a lot of 5th Freedom incluiding US

MIA-SDQ (PE)

Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
aussie747
Posts: 1005
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:43 pm

Garuda , Thai and Emirates have fifth freedom rights through BNE/SYD/MEL en route to AKL. With Emirates just starting their route last week.

QF has AKL-LAX, NZ had SYD-LAX but dropped their flights back in APR 2003 due to poor loadings
 
WNfan
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:43 pm

Pardon my ignorance, but what does 5th Freedom mean?
 
Arsenal@LHR
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:46 pm

To add to that:
AI CDG-EWR 744 (originating in either BOM or DEL)
AI LHR-ORD 744
KU KWI-AMS-ORD A340
In Arsene we trust!!
 
DTWINTLFLYER
Posts: 293
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:55 pm

obviously include all of the NW and UAL inter-Asian flights from NRT NGO KIX........NW also used to have a few from Seoul (BKK to name one)
 
David_itl
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:57 pm

WNfan, put simply it means an airline from country X is able to pick up passengers (and freight?) from country Y to country Z (and I'm sure that airline has to be routing from country X to country Z and not Y-X-Z). Sorry for making it sound like an algebraic expression!

I didn't list SQ MAN-BRU as they're not currently operating 747s to MAN.

David
 
aussie747
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:59 pm

5th freedom rights generally mean the ability for an airline to uplift paasengers not originating or terminating from their own port city

an example being Air New Zealand being able to carry passengers from Sydney to Los Angeles.

Great way to earn extra money I would say for the airlines, I guess that's why they are highly lucrative.
 
WNfan
Posts: 198
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:00 am

Thanks for clearing that up. I would like to fly Kuwait Airlines sometime, they have ORD-AMS for about USD325 return from September through May.

Pakistan Intl Airlines has twice-weekly ORD-Birmingham-Lahore, I think it's an A310. Does that count on this list?
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:05 am

Guys: SQ does not fly anymore to BRU.

So forget about the MAN-BRU, and:

EWR/ORD-BRU on SQ.

That is a cargo flight of SQC.

Regards
Frederic
 
styles
Posts: 89
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:06 am

Varig LAX NRT M11
Varig CDG AMS 772
Luxair MAN DUB ER4
TAP Air Portugal CPH ARN A319
 
David_itl
Posts: 5993
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:11 am


I'm not sure whether we can count European airlines flying between two different countries to the country they are based in as 5th Freedom flyers as Europe may be construed as a single aviation market.

David
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:12 am

Miami's 5th Freedom routes

Iberia Airlines of Spain:
MIA-PTY
MIA-SAP-(SAL)*
MIA-SJO
MIA-MGA
MIA-GUA
MIA-CUN
*No 5th freedom to SAL. Passengers must have came from MAD.

LanChile:
MIA-SDQ (op. for LanDominicana)
MIA-PUJ (op. for LanPeru)
MIA-LIM (op. for LanPeru)
MIA-UIO-GYE-MIA (op. for LanEcuador)
MIA-BOG
MIA-CUN
MIA-CCS

Lloyd Aero Bolivanos:
MIA-MAO

Sol Air:
MIA-MGA
MIA-SAL

Martinair Holland:
MIA-SJO
MIA-SXM (subject to Gov't Approval)

LTU:
MIA-SJO (they have the rights, they are currently not using them)

Air France:
MIA-PAP

BWIA:
MIA-BGI

Dutch Caribbean Airlines:
MIA-PAP

Aero Continente:
MIA-GYE
MIA-PTY
MIA-SDQ
MIA-PAP (op. for Air d'Ayiti)

Aerolineas Argentinas is looking at adding a mini-hub in Miami, using MD80s with 5th freedom service initially to St. Marteen, Punta Cana, and Montreal.
a.
 
Boeing757/767
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:28 am

Regarding SQ, I meant to say AMS, not BRU, sorry.
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:39 am

HY JFK-BHX
BG JFK-BRU (I think)
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
dispatch
Posts: 368
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:50 am

Boeing 757/767,
SQ SIN - FRA does not belong on this list, but FRA - EWR probably does. Also, from AMS only to EWR, the AMS - ORD service was terminated.

Northwest Airlines AMS - BOM

Peter
 
planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:54 am

AMS-EWR on SQ
FRA-JFK on SQ
CDG-EWR on AI
LHR-JFK on AI
LHR-ORD on AI
BRU-JFK on BG
BHX-JFK on HY

DXB-EWR on EK
DXB-LHR on BG
DXB-LHR on BI

BOM-DXB on BG
BOM-DXB on CX
BKK-SIN on GA
BKK-SIN on IC
BKK-SIN on BG
BKK-SIN on TK
BKK-SIN on CX
DXB-DAC on IR
CMB-MLE on EK
SIN-JKT on AI
SIN-JKT on GF

...more to come later...
 
prosa
Posts: 5389
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 3:24 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 12:59 am

One I'm not sure about:
ET EWR-FCO
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
wunderk
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 12:38 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:27 am


LA: AKL-SYD
MH: DXB-EWR

I find in East Asia, there are many airlines operating fifth freedom segments, for example the following routes from HKG:

GF HKG-BKK
EK HKG-BKK
ET HKG-BKK
AY HKG-BKK
UL HKG-BKK
CI HKG-CGK
CI HKG-SIN
GA HKG-SIN
QF HKG-SIN
NW HKG-NRT
AI HKG-KIX
EG HKG-TPE
SQ HKG-TPE
TG HKG-TPE
TG HKG-ICN

That's just a partial list...in fact, there are constantly a dozen airlines flying HKG-BKK alone. There were many others still operational until very recently, some of them stopped because of SARS (like SQ's HKG-LAS route). Remember these ones?

CI HKG-MNL (for a short while before the Philippines tore up its air agreement with Taiwan)
CA HKG-LHR (for a very brief period)
CP HKG-BKK
UA HKG-SIN (resumed?)
LX HKG-MNL (still valid?)
BA HKG-MNL
SR HKG-SEL (when they had the 747-300s)
AF HKG-MNL
SQ HKG-SFO (resumed?)
LH HKG-OSA (before it became ITM and replaced by KIX for international flights)

CX itself has 5th freedom on many flights between Taiwan and Japan:
TPE-KIX
TPE-NRT
TPE-FUK
TPE-NGO

In 1992, when South Korea broke ties with Taiwan and both countries cancelled their air agreement, CI, BR, OZ and KE all had to stop flying between the two neighbours. Those carriers with 5th freedom all of a sudden became the only ones serving TPE-SEL. (CX, SQ, TG, and CO were the prominent ones). Only very recently did Taiwan and South Korea resumed their own flights, but only at a charter level.

OK, I'm getting off topic, I'd better sign off.

 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6607
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:53 am

NW Interport Flights-
NRT-BKK, NGO-MNL
NRT-ICN, KIX-TPE
NRT-HKG, NRT-PUS
NRT-MNL, NRT-NGO(Oct/03)
NRT-PEK
NRT-PVG
NRT-TPE
NRT-SIN
NRT-GUM
NRT-SPN
Made from jets!
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:03 am

The current Air India 5th freedoms in use are :

London LHR to New York JFK vv
London LHR to Chicago ORD vv
Paris CDG to Newark EWR vv
Singapore SIN to Jakarta CGK vv
Singapore SIN to Kuala Lumpur KUL vv
Bangkok BKK to Tokyo NRT vv
Hong Kong HKG to Osaka KIX vv
Doha DOH to Bahrain BAH vv
Abu Dhabi AUH to Muscat MCT vv
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
godbless
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:10 am

FRA-MAD on LA
FRA-LHR on SW (not served at the moment but will be replaced by FRA-LGW)
FRA-JFK on SQ
FRA-SFO or LAX on AI (to be installed)
SIN-CGK on LH
FRA-SIN on QF
FRA-MUC on TP (I don't know if they still operate that one though)

Max
 
planemannyc
Posts: 939
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 12:54 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:14 am

SIN-HKG on CI
EK / ZBAA), China">PEK-NRT on PK
EK / ZBAA), China">PEK-NRT on UA
NRT-HKG on UA
NRT-TPE on UA
NRT-SIN on UA
NRT-BKK on UA
BKK-NRT on BG
NRT-BKK on NW
NRT-HKG on NW
NRT-MNL on NW
NRT-SIN on NW

DXB-CAI on SQ

NRT-LAX on SQ
SIN-MEL on EK
MEL-AKL on EK
SYD-AKL on EK
BNE-AKL on BI

ORD-BHX on PK
JFK-MAN on PK
SEL-SFO on SQ
HKG-SFO on SQ

 
Boeing757/767
Posts: 2179
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 1999 11:05 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 2:30 am

Boy, I goofed again with SQ. I meant JFK-FRA. Duh!
Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
 
Vimanav
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:32 am

Some of the other 5th freedom rights from India are:

BG - BOM DXB vv
KB - CCU BKK vv / DEL KTM vv
CX - BOM DXB vv/ BOM BKKvv
ET - BOM BKK vv
BI - CCU DXB vv

The current Air India 5th freedoms in use are :

Does AI not enjoy traffic rights between Nairobi and Dar-es-salam on those services?

rgds//Vimanav

Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
B747-437B
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RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:37 am

Does AI not enjoy traffic rights between Nairobi and Dar-es-salam on those services?

Nope. The loads to DAR are piss poor anyway. They run the NBO-DAR hop simply because NBO is not considered safe for crew layovers.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
sk945
Posts: 424
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 6:28 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 4:44 am

I'll add one more for BKK:
SAS BKK-SIN
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24724
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:03 am

American Airlines 5th Freedom routes:

Buenos Aires-Montevideo rtn.
Sao Paulo-Asuncion rtn.
Bridgetown-Canouan rtn.
Santo Domingo-St. Maarten rtn. (seasonal)

United Airlines 5th Freedom routes (excluding NRT):
Buenos Aires-Montevideo rtn.
San Jose, CR-Guatemala City rtn.
San Jose, CR-Mexico City rtn.
Hong Kong-Singapore rtn.
a.
 
okko
Posts: 91
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 6:44 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:54 pm

first post on this forum.

AY BKK-SIN
AY BKK-HKG

but yep, the daily HEL-BKK has definitely excellent loads but from what I´ve seen flying BKK-SIN on AY a couple of times, the loads are somewhere around 50% even with intra-asian pax.

 
voodoo
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 12:14 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 9:23 pm

Is Air Jamaica still flying London-Heathrow to Havana?
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
9V-SVE
Posts: 1953
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 7:51 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 10:03 pm

SQ's current fifth freedom routes -

HKG-SFO-HKG
TPE-LAX-TPE
NRT-LAX-NRT
ICN-YVR-ICN
ICN-SFO-ICN
BKK-ICN-BKK
BKK-KIX-BKK
FRA-JFK-FRA
AMS-EWR-AMS
ZRH-MAD-ZRH
CDG-MAD-CDG

Fifth freedom routes it used to operate -

HKG-TPE-HKG (Suspended)
BRU-MAN-BRU (Replaced with 5x weekly direct flight from SIN)
BOM-MAN-BOM (Replaced with 5x weekly direct flight from SIN)
CDG-MAN-CDG (Replaced with 5x weekly direct flight from SIN)
ZRH-MAN-ZRH (Replaced with 5x weekly direct flight from SIN)
AMS-ORD-AMS (Cancelled for Good)
HKG-LAS-HKG (Cancelled for Good)
 
chrisa330
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 10:24 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:08 pm

Air Canada:
HNL-SYD

Thai:
KIX-LAX
NRT-LAX

Cathay Pacific:
JFK-YVR

[Edited 2003-08-15 16:10:38]
 
dispatch
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:14 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:27 pm

Seems like it is too bad aircraft like 747-400(ER), 777ER and A340-313X/500/600 are now used by the airlines. Were it not for the long range of those aircraft, there would be much more stops on long hauls, and a much bigger change on "droppin' in" for a part of the flight.

Peter
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:31 pm

DL CDG-BOM

All of the PA/DL FRA hub was built on 5th freedom routes. UA still holds 5th freedom rights beyond LHR and in South America which are not being exercised and AA, DL, and UA have extensive 5th freedom rights beyond western Europe which were originally awarded to TW and PA. Most of the US 5th freedom rights worldwide were awarded to carriers after WWII to help stabilize the liberated nations' economies and to reward the US carriers who helped w/ the war effort.
 
pzurita1
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:21 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Fri Aug 15, 2003 11:53 pm



EZE-CPT (SA)
EZE-JNB (SA)


So, who is setting all this flights in a clean list????

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:23 am

Sorry "Pzurita1", but AF doesn't operate on GRU-EZE or GRU-SCL
AF Flights from CDG to EZE, GRU, GIG are daily, nonstop.

The flight AF416 to EZE continues to SCL, with a 5th freedom.

You can also fly AF on SIN-CGK, BKK-HAN, BKK-SGN
 
FlySSC
Posts: 5192
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 12:57 am

Iran Air used to fly from Paris-ORY to GVA on its way to THR (747SP or A30-600 ). Kuwait Airways and Saudia between Paris-CDG and FCO, on their way to KWI and JED.

Aerolineas Argentinas stopped serving Paris with its 747 but was using a MD-80 last year from CDG1 to MD), Spain">MAD, code-share with IB, in connextion with its flight to EZE.
 
clipper471
Crew
Posts: 610
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 6:44 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 9:39 pm

UA still holds 5th freedom rights beyond LHR

The UAL LHR routes inherited from PAA are not fifth freedom. As I recall, Pan Am could not pick up "local traffic" at LHR. The LHR continental-European flights were connections for passengers arriving from their trans-Atlantic flights. I flew those flights on JFK-LHR-BRU with Pan Am.
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:12 pm

How about the Africa destinations served by SN Brussels Airlines? Nearly all, if not all, Africa flights leaving BRU are bound for 2 destinations in Africa, is it possible to book a flight for the short legs between those African city pairs?
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 10:59 pm

>>5th freedom rights generally mean the ability for an airline to uplift paasengers not originating or terminating from their own port city<<

Not entirely correct. 5th freedom is limited to flights which originate or terminate in the operating airlines country, e.g. when Swiss flies ZRH-BKK-SIN, the BKK-SIN sector is subject to the 5th freedom.
If Swiss would now base an aircraft in BKK, just to shuttle between BKK and SIN, without touching Switzerland and without connecting to flights from/to Switzerland, it would be 7th freedom, which is rarely granted.

The same goes for Ryanair, they actually don't have any 5th freedom rights, but they use the 7th and 8th freedom (domestic cabotage, like STN-PIK) which became available to all carriers within the European Union plus (I think) Norway and Iceland.

Cheers,

Tom

 
armcom
Posts: 42
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:17 pm

Voodoo,

Air Jamaica does operate LHR-HAV-KIN twice a week, on Sundays and Mondays with 5th freedom rights.
 
AM744
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:05 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sat Aug 16, 2003 11:55 pm

TACA MEX-LAX
F
i
l
l
e
r
 
overseasBHX
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:01 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:58 am

EK

DAC-KUL
KUL-JKT
CMB-JKT
CMB-SIN
CMB-MLE
SIN-JKT
SIN-MEL
SIN-SYD
BKK-HKG

Do the EK flights AUH-BEY and AUH-AMM count as fifth-freedom??

And just a note for Pzurita: EZE-CPT/JNB cannot count as fifth-freedom if they are being operated by SA (whose port bases are CPT and JNB). Do you possibly mean the JNB-CPT-EZE run that MH operates or used to operate?

Rgds,
Oscar
 
overseasBHX
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2001 10:01 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sun Aug 17, 2003 2:05 am

OK

DXB-CMB
AUH-CMB
AAN-CMB
 
trickijedi
Posts: 3201
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 4:35 pm

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sun Aug 17, 2003 10:05 am

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before but throw LH MNL-BKK on the list.
Its better to be on the ground wishing you were in the air than be in the air wishing you were on the ground. Fly safe!
 
AlitaliaORD
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 12:38 am

RE: Can We Compile A List Of 5th Freedom Flights?

Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:07 pm

Lacsa (Taca) ORD-Guatemala-Costa Rica
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