StarAC17
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If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:44 pm

Everyone already knows that AC is basically the only major airline in Canada and is not doing great. I cannot see the airline going under because of this, but what would happen to aviation in Canada if AC does go under and liquidates? What airline would take over the routes for AC if this happened or would a new airline form using the planes. I would like to hear what people would think will happen regarding these questions?
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
Guest

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 1:51 pm

I think quite a few airlines would love to continue AC's major international and domestic routes... an amount of traffic will be there if there's no Air Canada anymore. I also know people who are flying AMS-YYZ not on AC - they're flying AMS-MSP-YYZ on Northwest...  Big thumbs up So US hubs would be also lucky because a lot of passengers would choose a route with stopover at a major US Airport when going to Canada... That would be better times for BOS, ORD, DTW, MSP, SEA ,....  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But after all that - I really hope Air Canada will not go down!
 
Paddy
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:00 pm

Wouldn't/couldn't the Canadian government bail them out? It would be a massive blow to civic pride if AC went under. Imagine if UA or AA was the last major US international carrier right now....
 
ScarletHarlot
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:20 pm

It won't happen. The government would bail AC out before they let them shut down. Us Canadians already have a pretty good inferiority complex - imagine how bad it would be if we can't even keep Air Canada going!
But that was when I ruled the world
 
spyderz
Posts: 624
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:23 pm

Air Canada will not ceast to exist. It may shrink to being a international-only airline or it may be re-transformed into another airline like SN Brussels or Swiss came from the ashes of Sabena and Swissair. Foreign airline flying to Canada will help pick-up the slack if the transition takes long (i.e. British Airways increases frequencies and uses larger aircraft) and the current domestic airlines like Westjet and Jetsgo will aquire extra aircraftto fill the domestic demand. New entries into the scene will definately occur since a void will be there. There would be great turmoil in the immediate future, yet in the long-run, Canadians will not notice any great decrease in air service. This is rather hypothetical, but I wonder if Westjet has a contingency plan in place if such a situation were to occur?
 
StarAC17
Topic Author
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 2:24 pm

The government can and have given AC quite a bit in the past. But nothing since 9/11 and when they filed for Ch.11 on April 1st. I have heard if AC received the bailout's that UA and AA are getting from the US government they wouldn't be in as much trouble.

I also know people who are flying AMS-YYZ not on AC - they're flying AMS-MSP-YYZ on Northwest...

pax going AMS-YYZ probably mainly fly on KLM, not NWA or AC
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
planenutz
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:31 pm

I agree that we may look at a Swissair or Sabena situation.

A holding company would be created to buy the leftover assets of a liquidated Air Canada and a new carrier would be formed. It probably would still retain the Air Canada name and logo, but would be reinvented everywhere else: rationalize fleet and reduce the number of aircraft types, elimate all nonprofitable routes, and start from the ground up in redesigning a new inflight product. It could be a really good opportunity for AC to improve its services quite a bit.


Not all who wander are lost....
 
caribb
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:39 pm

I doubt the government would let Air Canada collapse as well. They were weak when Canadian Airlines was around. The battle with CP weakened them more. The government threw restrictions on them after winning that battle. 9/11 stunned them as did the Iraqi war, then came SARS and now the big blackout of 2003... Now they file for bankruptcy and blame everyone and everything except their own management skills... None of this is a pretty picture and a lot of it is a result of bad decisions and bad luck.

All this being said Air Transat, Skyservice, Westjet, Jetsgo & Canjet would argue strongly against a bail out and would probably love to take parts of the Air Canada network.. The people in Canada have a love hate relationship with Air Canada.. they are both proud of them and know they can be the biggest pain at the same time. Customer service is anything but stellar but yet they do provide an excellent route network and safe flying in relatively comfortable modern aircraft. Shut down Toronto with a snowstorm and you'll see blood pressure rising in passengers across the country. You haven't experienced Canada until you've had your intelligence insulted by an Air Canada agent.. My guess is most people would oppose a bail out but the numbers would be pretty evenly split, maybe something line 60/40 against.

I'd just like them to take responsibility for their bad management moves and correct the situation at the top. Make the proper moves to get the airline back into financial shape. Retrain their employees in customer relations. Decentralized the Toronto operation and split more of it among Vancouver and Montreal. Lastly focus on what they do best and stick to it and stop trying to be all things to all people.
 
SIN747
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:13 pm

It is pretty straightforward, all US majors (except Southwest) would today be in Ch. 11, or perhaps 7 if it were not for the govt. money. If AC had received proportional support (about $1bil. so far) they too wouldn't have filed.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:38 pm

I don't understand how anyone would want the government to pay taxpayers money to an airline that can't manage itself. Air Canada has been loosing billions of dollars over the years, and they weren't doing anything to stop it. As a taxpayer, I don't want to see my money funding a greedy airline that can't run itself properly.

It is pretty straightforward, all US majors (except Southwest) would today be in Ch. 11, or perhaps 7 if it were not for the govt. money. If AC had received proportional support (about $1bil. so far) they too wouldn't have filed.

You're right, they probably wouldn't be under bankruptcy protection, they'd have kept doing what they were doing until they burned away the money that the government gave them.

I DO NOT want Air Canada to recieve help from the government. Most of the people involved in the aviation industry here in Canada will agree with me. If they can't get their sh*t together even under bankruptcy protection, they don't deserve to be "Canada's Airline". They're a pretty sad flag carrier if you ask me.
EH.
 
AMS
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:56 pm

Spotterboy,

Martinair Holland and Air Transat and KLM also operate frequent flights from AMS-YYZ LB pearson INt airport.

Since many Dutch people immigrated to Canada, this is a heavey market!
 
behramjee
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:00 am

CanadaEH : You are 100% correct, ever since C3 and CP went under, AC with all the monopoly has given the snobby image of having a big chip on their shoulders and taken up the bullying stance with the other local airlines.

If they cant do well under bankruptcy then so be it. They dont deserve a million and one chances.

 
hmmmm...
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:51 am

The Canadian government would give a trillion dollars to AC if they had it to give. Ottawa does not consider Air Canada to be a business. It considers it to be an institution. Even if there were only one passenger flying per day, AC would still be supported, the planes would still take-off.

In Canada, politics is everything while economics is something left for businessmen to worry about. That's the mentality of Canadian political leadership. Give money to those who have not, take money from those who have. To hell with the free market.

The fact that AC is a Quebec-based institution, further insulates them from the free market forces. What happens to AC will not be dictated by how many, or how few, passengers fly it. This Canadian institution is deemed immune from those forces.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
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yyz717
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:11 am

If AC is liquidated, it will be a good day for the Cdn aviation industry.

AC is a govt-favoured entity that has squashed many competitors in the past. It's an inefficient operation that has destroyed $B in equity investment due to the strategic follies of the idiot CEO Robert Milton.

AC's latest quarterlies show that its operating margins are horrendous. If it does not liquidate, it will likely shrink itself to a small marginally profitable core business.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
flyyul
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:54 am

"The fact that AC is a Quebec-based institution, further insulates them from the free market forces"

-Beautiful statement. Air Canada is as much an Onterrible based institution as it is a Quebec one. As many would argue on this board, AC just has its legal name in Montreal, and the rest of its ops are in YYZ... no? That being said, the economic loss if AC goes down is MUCH greater in Toronto, than Montreal.

I love it how everytime there is an AC discussion, it is either that they are racist, prejudice, too Quebecois, too many flights to YUL .... c'mon get over it.

Mark
 
bmacleod
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:06 am

I would really like to see Canadian Airlines reborn again and take over if AC collapses.

My picks for new Canadian Airlines fleet:

717-200
737-700
767-200ER/300ER
757-200
777-200ER
747-400 Combi (maybe 2 or 3)

that's right....NO AIRBUSES!!!!


[Edited 2003-08-19 20:07:49]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
CanadaEH
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Air Canada Crippled By Computer Virus

Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:00 am

Computer Virus Cripples Air Canada Check-In Counters

MONTREAL (Reuters) - A computer virus crippled some Air Canada systems and created delays at check-in counters at Canadian airports, the airline said on Tuesday.

The virus, dubbed "White Hat," hit as the country's largest airline was still reeling from a worldwide shutdown of its operations last Friday, following the massive power blackout in Ontario and the U.S. Northeast.

Air Canada said the virus struck on Tuesday morning and also crippled its call centers.

"It's slowing things up," Air Canada spokeswoman Isabelle Arthur said, adding a fix was being installed by International Business Machines Corp.

The airline expected to resolve the problem before the end of the afternoon.

The virus had not attacked computer systems handling flight operations, Arthur said.

White Hat is what some people are calling a new worm that showed up on Monday, also dubbed "Welchia" or "Nachi," said Patrick Hinojosa, chief technology officer of anti-virus vendor Panda Software.

This new worm follows the worldwide spread of the "Blaster" virus last week, which crashed computers and spread to others and instructed them to launch an attack on one of Microsoft's Web sites.

Although the White Hat worm appeared to be written to clean up the Blaster worm and prevent future infections, anti-virus experts are opposed to the concept of good viruses because they intrude on someone else's computer system without their knowledge and can cause unintended consequences.

The White Hat worm is creating more network traffic, and thus a slowdown, for many corporations as it checks for other vulnerable computers to spread to and because it instructs numerous computers in a network to try to download the patch simultaneously, security experts said.

White hat is the term used for hackers who defend networks against "Black Hat" hackers, who try to attack them.


EH.
 
behramjee
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:41 am

The new fleet of Air Canada should focus on either being all BOEING or all AIRBUS...however all BOEING seems very much unlikely unless they pull of something of the kind that US AIR did in the mid 90s by ordering A 320s in dozens by cancelling a new order of 100s B 737s. If they do this then it will look wierd as the costs of retraining will be enormous but it will help politically with USA!

If it is all Airbus fleet then it should be :

A 318
A 319
A 320
A 321 replacing B 767 on domestic and USA / Caribbean routes
A 332 replacing B 767 on Intl long haul and regional routes
A 333
A 343 replacing all remaining long haul 767 flights
A 346 replacing the 74Ms and 744s to Europe and Asia

However if it was all BOEING then I would propose :

B 717 for short haul Canadian and USA flights with low-steady demand
B 737-700 for medium-long haul regional/transcontinental flights
B 738 for higher density-demand regional flights
B 7E7 replacing all current B 767 flights
B 777-200ER or LR replacing all A 330 and A 340 flights
B 747-400 of CP...stick with them as their 400 seaters will come in handy during the peak summer and winter season where there is huge demand for seats to LHR, NRT, HKG, FRA and CDG etc.

B 747-400 combis can be gotten rid off or maybe kept as they provide the flexibility for generating extra cargo $$$ revenue.

If demand for Air Canada seats is not that much to support a 744 flight then get rid off all B 747-400s and get instead B 777-300ERs which can easily fly all the current AC 744 long haul routes such as YVR-HKG/NRT, YYZ-LHR/FRA, YUL-CDG/FRA etc etc.
 
BAGSMASHER
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:10 am

If AC goes down, the world will be a better place!
 
Guest

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:14 am

"I DO NOT want Air Canada to recieve help from the government. Most of the people involved in the aviation industry here in Canada will agree with me. If they can't get their sh*t together even under bankruptcy protection, they don't deserve to be "Canada's Airline". They're a pretty sad flag carrier if you ask me."

Pretty well sums up how I feel re Air Canada. Incidentally, contrary to what some may think, Air Canada is NOT Canada's flag carrier; they are a private
corporation that still believes it is a crown carrier. I more or less attach those
sentiments to the CEO and executive board rather than the general employee group. There are many, many wonderful AC employees (and include ex Canadi>n, Wardair and PWA men and women among them), and they don't deserve what has become of their carrier. Robert Milton? Well, I could go on and on about that egotistical narcissist, but I digress.
 
BAGSMASHER
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:20 am

Ever notice how the AC ticket counter personnel sit in chairs cause they're too lazy to stand for 8 hrs??
 
flyyul
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:28 am

"Ever notice how the AC ticket counter personnel sit in chairs cause they're too lazy to stand for 8 hrs"

-Brilliant statement... you deserve a medal for this one.

Mark
 
SIN747
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:11 am

YYZ717: What does "destroy $b in equity investment" mean to those of us not as well versed in finances as you so obviously are?
Also, if we ignore that AC has financially outperformed all other major N.A. international carriers since 9/11 ( results were still terrible), even though the Canadian govt. didn't provide the support the US govt. did, (I also don't believe in govt. subsidies, but don't understand how a reasonable person could view this as being a level playing field under NAFTA), what are your great solutions to turning around all N.A. full -service int'l carriers, since the same applies to them as well? You are "the man" YYZ717, tell us how easy it is and why every single one of those big-boy CEO's is so stupid! How about you Canadi
 
CanadaEH
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:11 am

SIN747.. There is absolutely no comparison to the US airlines vs. Canadian airlines. Air Canada has operated under a virtual monopoly for years while the US has had what, five or six full-service carriers and numerous low-cost carriers. There is NO comparison. You say Air Canada has out performed most North American carriers - dude, they're under bankruptcy protection. How well did they honestly out perform them?

You seem to lack any knowledge of the aviation industry in Canada, SIN747. I don't think Yyz717 was calling all big-boy CEO's stupid, just Robert Milton - and I agree. Robert Milton and his executive's have played a large part in putting Air Canada into bankruptcy protection. I suggest you read up on whats been going on in Canada's aviation industry in the past few years before you start replying with anymore of your BS.
EH.
 
StarAC17
Topic Author
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:17 am

How many people on this thread actually like the Airline?
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
flyyul
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:21 am

I like Air Canada.. they really are a superior airline in terms of in-flight product. I would know this, as I work for NW/CO, and flown them extensively. I would take AC over them anyday.

However, I have criticized AC's management and direction... but I do think that they represent a lot for this country and major cities.

They cant go quietly in the night like the Westerner's on this board will hope.

Mark
 
chock head
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:31 am

They cant go quietly in the night like the Westerner's on this board will hope.

Well thanks to the ultimate Air Canada apologist for that bit of flame bait. I am not going to weigh into the Quebec vs west debate because it has absolutely been beaten to death.

Have you considered that Westerners do not care about Air Canada because it represents a bloated money sucking machine that people are afraid is going to suck their tax dollars?

Take a break from telling us what your colon looks like to realize that it is not always a west vs east issue but a business issue.
 
StarAC17
Topic Author
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:56 am

If anyone knows where is the carrier losing most of its money from service wise, is it their domestic network, international network, or US network. From what I gather from reports it cannot compete with Westjet, Canjet, and Jetsgo. Also my mom is planning to visit New York in September and she was intending to use aeroplan miles but she couldn't get economy seats. So we looked at AC and AA's YYZ-LGA fares and AC was $445 CAD and for the same seat on AA it was $310 CAD a $135 difference. Now neither airline is doing well but for an hour long flight even though I believe that AC is the better product still I advised my mom to book it on AA and she Did. If AC wants to make money they need to make their fare for this flight within I would say $20 of the AA fare.

Just what I think  Smile
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
flyyul
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:17 am

Ok chock head...

How much of your tax payer's dollars go to AC? None.. in fact, the largest owner of AC is the Caisse de Depot et placement du Quebec, so if anything its a Quebec taxpayer's problem. In fact, AC is like any other private enterprise, that gets nothing from the govt. Canada is known for restrictive bilaterals, and stupid laws on ownership..... then all you have to blame is AC?

On 09/11, AC got $100 million from the govt for a three day shutdown of Canadian and AMERICAN airspace. USAirways, of similar size to AC, got $650million US. As a consequence of this war, USAirways will also receive over $300million in compensation due to uncontrollable circumstances. AC will receive zero... how much will AC get for a SARS ravaged hub? A benefit concert...

Since then, AC has consistently performed better than any other major in North Americaa. The main excuse is that AC is a monopoly. However, AC has just as much competition as any other major in North America. All of Canada's big and lucrative routes have 2 or 3 or 4 competitors on them... but this doesnt make sense in the mind of WestJet lovers.

There is no doubt that Air Canada is sick, but just like the rest of 'em. Investing in them, or standing behind our national airline, is something good for the international exposure of Canada's main cities and its international reputation. Air Canada employees thousands of people in Montreal, Toronto, Calgary and Vancouver. They provide international service to all those 4 big cities, and to cities like YHZ/YYT etc. Instead, we want them to die, in the hopes that WestJet will fly their 737's from Calgary to London.

There is no doubt that AC needs to change..... but we are way too cruel on AC. Fly AC, then fly NW... and then tell me what you think about AC.. I think I would know cuz I work for NW and have flown AC about 10 times in the last year.

"So we looked at AC and AA's YYZ-LGA fares and AC was $445 CAD and for the same seat on AA it was $310 CAD a $135 difference"

-Have you considered that what you are saying can be disproven? I just did a fare comparison, and they match eachother. You may have chosen a flight on AC that is perhaps very full. Therefore the fare is more expensive. AA's usual YYZ-LGA is nowhere near full from the start, so of course they will be cheaper.

Canada is a country right?

Mark
 
SIN747
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:25 am

AC the "monopoly"?/Can't compare AC to US carriers/Stupid CEO's/dude US carriers not in bank.

US carriers: NW at MSP,DTW, MEM, DL at ATL,CVG,SLC, CO at IAH, EWR etc have far greater monopolies at those hubs than AC has in Canada. There may be 6 carriers in the US as you say, but what sounds better, owning DTW, or IAH or COMPETING with Nationair, Astoria, Royal, Air Transat(until this year a big domestic operator of gauge if not frequency- think 360 seats on an L10),WJA, C3, CanJet, JetsGO, or CP (until acquired 4 years ago (since which we've had 9/11 and SARS). To own a US hub versus having a piece of the fragmented Canada market which comprises all of about 6 decent sized cities...which would you choose?
THE BIGGEST US HUBS ARE BIGGER MARKETS THAN ALL OF THE DOMESTIC CANADIAN MARKET!

So if all the other CEO's are so smart, then how come Milton's company has performed better? AC optg. loss approx C$200mil, AA C$5bill loss! , UA $4+bill loss, etc.

Consider the penetration of LCC's on AC's entire domestic market versus the limited penetration at any US hubs by US LCC's.

AC only generates about 1/3 of their domestic revenues at the mainline from domestic. So 2/3 from highly competitive int'l markets. Of that 1/3 domestic, a significant portion comes from int'l flows...actually the other domestic guys are the ones with limited competition! Also worth considering is that while AC pumps out a lot of ASM's (one YYZ-YVR 744 produces 420 seats x 2500 miles (each way vs. WJA 140 sets x shorthaul), they don't produce such a "monopoly" on seats: AC 744 2 sectors a day(YYZ-YVR rt/10hours) =840 seats versus a WJA 737 8 sectors a day(YYC-YVR/approx 10hours)=1120seats! So, while everyone screams about AC's monopoly, is it? Or by not really competing with anyone but AC is WJA the guy that benefits from not being in highly competitive markets?

"Dude US carriers not in bank."...no kidding Sherlock, they have shared C$12 bill. in cash since 9/11. What part of C$1 bill. cash for AC would mean it wouldn't be in bank. either don't you get? Whether you hate his guts, or not, what is your answer to the obvious fact that other than govt. cash Milton has way out-performed his peers?

Again guys, what would you do to fix AC? You've got to get -$200mil to zero...and for AA -$5bill to zero?

 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:38 am

"Beautiful statement. Air Canada is as much an Onterrible based institution as it is a Quebec one."

Air Canada is based in Montreal for political reasons, and for the same political reasons it will continue to be based in Montreal, and it will continue to get whatever it needs to exist. Therefore the fact that it is based in Quebec not only insulates it against free market forces, but is the raison d' être for its continued existence when any other airline under identical circumstances outside Quebec would have died a long time ago.

My statement about the political angle remains valid. The fact that you don't like it simply makes me stating it all the more enjoyable. Perhaps you need to create more usernames to give your side of the argument equal footing.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
flyyul
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:25 am

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:42 am

Based in Montreal for political reasons, is pretty much your view. I asked this question to a few guys at AC, and AC could easily pack it up and move to YYZ. In fact, they contemplated to do so many times when the ADM would not transfer flights from YMX to YUL. You just find it absurd that the hub is in Toronto, management in Montreal. In fact, its the main point of your insecurity, the main reason why you would like to see nothing more than Air Canada drown.

"other airline under identical circumstances outside Quebec would have died a long time ago. "

-Enlighten me please..



 
hmmmm...
Posts: 1959
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:50 am

Canadi>n.


Air Canada is based in Montreal even though its main business is in Toronto and has been for a long, long time. Yet it stays over there. Why? Because of politics. The very politics you deny exists. Quebec and the federal government keep Air Canada alive, but only as an institution, not as a viable business. Perhaps one day that will change. But I suspect it is too late for that now.
An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
 
StarAC17
Topic Author
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:55 am

Have you considered that what you are saying can be disproven? I just did a fare comparison, and they match eachother. You may have chosen a flight on AC that is perhaps very full. Therefore the fare is more expensive. AA's usual YYZ-LGA is nowhere near full from the start, so of course they will be cheaper.

Considering that there were no economy aeroplan seats you are probably right and now that I think of it the AA ticket in non-refundable and had several restrictions on it. (I am unsure about the AC ticket). And not like this matter but I would prefer to travel on an A319 than a MD-80. FLYYUL you win that one . And I like AC too.

Instead, we want them to die, in the hopes that WestJet will fly their 737's from Calgary to London.

Good line and if they did they shouldn't be allowed to stop in YHZ, YYT, or YQX for fuel. I am glad Westjet is around but they seem very arrogant.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
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yyz717
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:02 am

The Air Canada Act passed by parliament when AC was privatized stipulated that AC MUST remain YUL-based. Combined with the racist policy that all FA's must be French-speaking means that over 40% of AC employees are Quebecers despite them only accounting for 21% of Canada's population. The AC employee base is thus not representative of the Canadian population.

AC remains govt supported to this day by the preferential route authority awarded to it when it was a crown corporation.....in particular high yield routes to LGA, ORD, LHR, CDG, FRA. AC should be required to forfeit these rights and rebid for them along with TS, WJ, etc.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
VS340
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:07 am

I could care less if AC went under. After so much terrible service that I and so many others have received, and of course the awful upper management, the last thing i want to see is Ottawa blow more money, that they could spend on far more important things, on a completely lost cause

AMS is right about the demand for dutch travellers to come to Canada, Martinair regularly flies into YEG and YYC , always with full pax loads both coming and going
 
SIN747
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:07 am

YYZ717

You've made some sweeping allegations (read : inaccurate comments) above and I'm still waiting for some answers...unless you don't have any!
 
CanadaEH
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:20 am

SIN747..

Q2 OVERVIEW

- Operating revenues down $600 million or 24 per cent year over year,
mainly due to SARS and the impact of the war in Iraq
- Shortfall in Asian passenger revenues of $127 million or 63 per cent
- Domestic passenger revenues down $251 million or 26 per cent
- Operating expenses before reorganization items reduced by $268 million
or 11 per cent
- Operating loss before reorganization items of $270 million
- Cash and cash equivalents of $838 million at June 30, 2003
- US$700 million DIP secured financing facility from General Electric
Capital Canada Inc. not drawn


Operating loss of C$270 million in the second quarter. Do I need to remind you that the second and third quarters are the busiest of the year? A loss of this magnitude is not a good sign in such a busy period of travel. Factor in all the angry passengers over the past week who will never step foot on Air Canada again - even more lost revenue. Factor in increased competition from the low-cost carriers taking advantage of Air Canada's restructuring, and you've got one recipe for disaster.

It's not as easy as getting -C$270 million to C$0. Have you forgotten that they are still in well over C$12 billion in debt? Have you forgotten that they have a shortfall of some C$1.8 billion in their pension fund? Have you noticed that AC unions are demanding that some employees be brought back? Didn't you read that some unions are telling their members to not help out other unions? Where is the teamwork and work ethic in that? Oh, wait, I forgot.. You don't bother to follow the news, do you?

EH.
 
chock head
Posts: 146
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:26 am

FLYYUL

I never said that my tax dollars were going to Air Canada, I said there is the fear that they will be. However in a roundabout way my money is going to AC in that whichever airline I fly has to compensate for the fact that AC has not paid it's rent or NavCan fees and the airport authorities and Navcan are trying to recoup that cost.

Whether or not AC got a payoff for 9/11 is irrelevant. They would have pissed away that money already with their failed business plan. The statement that they are better run than their American counterparts is ludicrous. You can drown in 10 feet of water just as easily as 50. To say they they performed better because the losses were not as bad is to show a lack of understanding of the Canadian aviation market.

You can't compare AC to one of the "legacy' carriers in the U.S. because AC does not have the competition that they do. Nobody else in Canada has their route structure to connect from a domestic to International flight.

AC and all their shrill apologists want to blame everything else for their situation except for themselves. The fact is that their business plan does not work. If they want to continue to operate like that they will end up like the dinosaurs they are trying so hard to emulate.
 
StarAC17
Topic Author
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:27 am

Factor in all the angry passengers over the past week who will never step foot on Air Canada again

With all due respect I would say 90% of the time this is B$. Most of these people will not think twice about booking with them if they want to go from YYZ-MBJ non-stop to party in Jamaica. My cousin said he would never fly AC again because is seat wouldn't recline and he got 1,000 aeroplan miles for complaining.

Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
SIN747
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:26 am

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:39 am

Over the years I must have heard the "I'll never fly them again because: seat pitch/food/delay/seat didn't recline/etc" a million times, but they do, because as you say its YYZ-MBJ/most flights/Aeroplan/most pitch/good price/safety/etc.
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 2:33 pm

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:41 am

Air Canada still managed to lose a small fortune in bankruptcy protection, and lets not forget their last quarter where they didn't pay the leases either. Getting rid of Milton will cost the carrier $6,000,000 aswell most of the senior executives will receive 2-3 million for being fired. When GE Capital extended the money to Air Canada one of the conditions was that Milton MUST stay in charge, I am not sure if in recent light they have rescinded this catch.

Sure SARS hit Air Canada, and this Toronto blackout isn't helping matters at all either. Today Air Canada was hit by a computer virus that knocked out check-in services. They have had so much bad press lately that it is a loosing battle for them.

Air Canada is disappearing in the West, Zip is becoming more prevalent, but I know that loads are horrible, even during the busy summer schedule. Good luck trying to find business class seats in Western Canada.....Anyone got 10 million dollars, I have an idea.

I'm not anti-Air Canada, I'm anti-Milton. I think new individuals should be brought in, new ideology, new faces, new airline.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2043
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:49 am

...then a lot of my friends fathers would be out of work.

One of my friends mothers would also lose her job.

EmiratesA345  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
SIN747
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:26 am

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:56 am

FallenGeese

Last 1/4 includes "restructuring charges"(non-cash) of +$300mil and DOES include all lease payments as if paid! Now lets see, the RICHEST, and perhaps SMARTEST company in the world, GE, INSISTS that Milton stays, or they won't put up more money, but you think he ought to go. Obviously GE sees something you don't, but again...what would you do that isn't being done to save AC if your job were CEO?
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:04 pm

If Air Canada goes down, the most likely scenario IMO would probably be along the lines of Sabena/SN Brussels or Swissair/Swiss. Their route network would probably shrink considerably, with only key intercontinental, transborder and domestic trunk routes retained. Some or all of their intercontinental service might be taken over by Star Alliance partners (LH to FRA, NH to NRT as examples). UA -- if they don't go down -- may take over more frequencies and/or routes to the U.S. presently flown by AC. Domestic service may come down to YVR/YEG/YYC/YWG/YYZ/YUL, though independent regionals would likely codeshare with the "new" AC to other points within Canada and on shorter transborder routes.

If this scenario were to occur, their fleet would be comprised of no new types -- my guess is that all their Boeing types with the possible exception of their 763s would be gone immediately, with a somewhat reduced 319/320/321 fleet remaining to serve domestic and transborder routes with 333/340 as their longhaul type, although it is conceivable that if the 763s were to remain they may become the "new" AC's only longhaul type, inasmuch as their 763s are all ETOPS versions that have the range to cover all of AC's current intercontinental routes. Whichever way they would go with their longhaul fleet choice in this hypothetical scenario, it would be a very efficient fleet of the fewest possible aircraft types needed for the network served.
 
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yyz717
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:01 pm

...then a lot of my friends fathers would be out of work.

One of my friends mothers would also lose her job.


But they would be replaced by harder working Canadians who would be hired by a true private sector carrier to pick up the slack left by AC's departure. Overall, likely more jobs would be created should AC go bankrupt.


Obviously GE sees something you don't, but again...what would you do that isn't being done to save AC if your job were CEO?

The depressed state of the airline industry means that GE would have no where else to place the aircraft if AC liquidated, so they'd rather deal with AC now.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
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Not In Our Lifetime.

Wed Aug 20, 2003 2:42 pm

AC may evolve into a much smaller operation, but it will be decades before it is replaced as the national flag carrier of canada.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
SIN747
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:26 am

RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:27 pm

YYZ717

Come on, you've got to be able to do better than that, they can deal with AC and insist on a new CEO, but they're doing the opposite.
 
CanadaEH
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:52 pm

StarAC17, I'm not talking about seat pitch here.

If you've been locked in your room with no T.V. for the past week, you'd notice the chaos that has been at the airports lately. It's not out of the ordinary to see two check-in agents in a line that has room for 30. How would you feel if you're flights were delayed/cancelled when the other airlines were ALL up and running? How would you wait for an hour to check-in while other airlines take only minutes?

As I said before, the blackout was not Air Canada's fault - the way they handled it was. I'll even give them some slack for having their backup generator fail.

Now pretend for a second here that you were trying to fly somewhere on Air Canada on Thursday. You're flight was cancelled due to the blackout. You were told to rebook your fight, but couldn't get through on the telephone. You book a hotel that you weren't expecting to have to book. You still can't get through on the telephone to AC. You decide to come to the airport in the morning. When you arrive, you find that no flights are departing/arriving. You try to find a representative to help you rebook your flight. You find one, and you're quickly told to call the reservation line. The representative walks away before you can explain that you've been trying all night to get through. You try again but the line is still busy.. over and over and over again.. You again, try to find a representative. You're told that all flights are booked up for the next two days!! You walk over to another airline and try booking a ticket and you're immediately greeted with a smile and told that there is an available seat for you. You buy your ticket and check yourself in. You relax. You stand back and watch the chaos of thousands of people around Air Canada check-in counters looking for answers that they aren't being told. You look back to where you just checked in a see calm, relaxed, and happy people coming and going.

Who do you think you are going to fly on next time?
EH.
 
JAL
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RE: If Air Canada Goes Down?

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:54 pm

I doubt that the Liberal government would allow Air Canada to go down as it would leave's Canada without a national airline.
Work Hard But Play Harder