Sjoerd
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LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 8:28 pm

No pics yet ? Can't wait to see it. This new airbus will be the first with real lower deck facilities (besides lavatories), there will be galleys for pax. To me this sounds very attractive. Isn't boeing staying behind on this, you don't hear much from them on this subject ?
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
keesje
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 9:57 pm

Boeing wants a standardized production line.

Customized facility's upper/below main deck would endanger standardization & pose a risk on the production line. It might even trigger other airlines to ask for customization ...

However looks like Boeing is changing now, forced by their market situation.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:07 pm

As far as I know, the customized facilities in question on the LH A346 are not provided by Airbus and therefore are not adding complexity and increased production costs to Airbus. The below main deck facilities are produced by Bucher, a renowned galley production company from Switzerland.

Cheers, Thomas
 
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:10 pm

Will their A346 have an increased seat pitch?

I assume they will have PVT's installed, and their current pitch together with a PVT box under the seat in front of you will make up for a cramped flight.

Regards
Frederic
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 10:37 pm

no PTVs in Eco for the time being...

cheers
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:11 pm

Johnnybgoode:

Do you have any idea when LH is planning to introduce their new Y Class?

SailorOrion
 
Sabena332
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:48 pm

Do you have any idea when LH is planning to introduce their new Y Class?

Or better: Do you have any idea when LH is planning to introduce PTV's in their new Y Class? It's a complete joke that they receive brand new planes and intoduce them on regular passenger flights without PTV's in Economy Class, maybe someone at LH forgot that we live in the year 2003.

Patrick
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Fly-K
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Tue Aug 19, 2003 11:50 pm

No PTVs here either:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Fabrizio Fresia



I'd like to have them too, but the simple answer is return-on-investment.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
Sabena332
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:04 am

Yes, I also saw that IB's brand new 346's don't have PTV's in Y either. I can't understand that LH is equip some planes with internet access but not with PTV's in Economy.

Will the 346's also have internet access? Since I am proud owner of a notebook I am thinking about a weekend trip to Washington (of course only if I find a cheap fare), just to try internet surfing while flying at 33.000 feet, that must be great.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
StarFlyer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:23 am

LH is being really arrogant by not upgrading their Y class. I hope the customers pay them back for that. While yields may not be as high, there is still lots of money to be made in Y class. Paired with only average service quality LH may soon become an airline people will avoid.
I would assume they do have internet however. I read somewhere the charge per flight will be something around 30€! Must have been the LH Magazine that I receive every month.
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
Andreas
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 12:46 am

StarFlyer: Since you are studying Business Administration, may I suggest that you read the thread about LH economy class on this forum?

You'll find a few valuable arguments why people like myself chose to fly LH, and will continue to do so, because they do a few things very much right as opposed to other carriers, a few things, that are pretty relevant to guys, who do flying out of business reasons.

And as I belong into that group (>200,000 miles per year), I can assure you, that PTV and such fancy stuff is way way way down the list of priorities I use, when chosing an airline.

Cramped seating is way way way up on the list, but there is virtually no difference among carriers and I wouldn't accept to prolong my flight by even 20% only to have one inch more legroom. A new Y class will provide not one inch more legroom, so why would market acceptance change just by putting new cramped seats? It won't !
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
keesje
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:03 am

Andreas you are right other things are much more important. However LH competitors, like BA, KLM, AF and Delta also have the basics right (punctuality, valuable FF programs, good connections, etc ..)

LH not having PTV makes them stand alone. I for sure love watching a good movie of my choice on a long flight...

This was not what Lufthansa planned for y-class.

They changed their plans/ postponed introduction or whatever ... it makes their product inconsistent with most of their Star Partners to.

LH passengers always will travel with other airlines occasionally and the missing PTV will probably become an irritaror if they did pay a premium fare.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Sabena332
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:07 am

I also give a rat's a$$ about PTV's (had it on an AF flight from JFK to CDG in July but I used it only for approximately half an hour) but I think that it is ridiculous that an airline like LH don't equip its Economy Class on brand new long range aircrafts with PTV's. In my opinion is this an other evidence that LH gives a sh** about their Economy Class passengers, maybe I should apologize next time that I don't have the money to fly in Business  Yeah sure.

Patrick
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!
 
StarFlyer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:12 am

Keesje got it right, the point is that LH is falling behind other carriers.
And some of the ones mentioned DO make money, and the other ones WILL. I for my part only fly LH because they are so dominant out of my home airport HAM.
Andreas, if you charge high prices, and certainly LH do so, you have to offer a premium product. Otherwise it wont seem logical to customers to buy your product. Somebody who charges premium should always be ahead of their competitors, not behind. And whos saying that a PTV will result in less leg space, wouldnt it be a real innovation if they installed personal screens AND an additional inch of leg room? Then they could easily add another few euros on top of their fares.
I am sure there is people like you who dont care but you have to look at this as a whole, not from YOUR point of view. Few passengers dont care, others fly other airlines and realize how much more they could get for their money.
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
StarFlyer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:14 am

maybe I should apologize next time that I don't have the money to fly in Business
Patrick, thats exactly the point. I really just feel like an obstacle and in the way on LH, not welcome! And thats how it should be on a non low cost airline anyway!
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
vermeer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:15 am

StarFlyer,
I agree with you on the Y class on LH. It badly needs to be up to the standards.
As you know, for what concerns comfort, LH is not known for being an innovator but a follower, they always are a little behind the others.

My impression is that they really are not that concerned about economy. Their business class is almost constantly full on all routes ( and first as well, even with paying customers and not just upgrades!), that's their bread and butter.
 
Andreas
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:22 am

PTV: I'm still not convinced these are so relevant. These bloody things are small, even in Business, and on longhaul, very fortunately, my company lets me still fly Business, I couldn't stand it in economy, being 6 ft.2,
The last time I tried to watch a movie in LH Business was on my way to Dubai, Ang Lee's great movie Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, I managed to watch it but my eyes hurt afterwards and there was no fun in it, I mean come on, 10 or 12 inches...so I try to sleep or talk to fellow passengers or read a book. And to be frank, when looking around, there are not that many fellow pax who use these things!!!

So yes I believe these are way overrated, especially when talking about travellers on the job, be that Business or Economy class.

And I do not believe LH gives a shit about Y pax, on the contrary, but yields are extremely tight, every Euro counts that can be sqeezed out of the cost side of the equation, SARS is just over, so why risk too much? There's no reason, and LH is financially very sound (as opposed to most competitors), a position, that Mr. Mayrhuber will not endanger.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
nethkt
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:42 am

I hate all airlines that have no PTVs in Economy class.

SQ has them for a long time...and it's Audio&Video on demand...watch you want when you want. I couldn't believe that airlines like LH still has no. I will never fly them for long haul. :-(
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
eg777er
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 1:42 am

Just a small point about the production line: aren't Airbus underfloor facilities of a modular-type construction, so you just plug them in and hook them up?
 
TriStar500
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:08 am

Seems like we have now strewn totally off-topic... But anyway, here are my two Eurocents.  Smile

Fly-K has put it into a few simple words: the return of investment for the installation of PTVs in economy class is not warranting such an upgrade at the moment. I like to criticize LH for their shortcomings in some other areas, but from a professional point of view, I have to say that they are a very clever bunch when it comes to management decisions.

Some fellow posters here should really ask themselves, what their priority ranking is when booking an economy class flight. I very much doubt that a PTV is high on your agenda! Fare price, reliability, punctuality, number of departures per day and possible connections are top priorities. Only if you don't have to pay for your ticket because your company does so, you are non-reving or your mom and pop foot the bill, will PTVs and other similar gimmicks be a deciding factor.
Sorry to sound a little harsh, but analyzing and reading passenger surveys is part of my job, and this is just a very brief summary of the passengers airline selection processes analysis.

I would have never thought that I'd step in to defend LH one day - they are far from being my "favorite" (whatever that means) carrier. However, they are doing things that make economical sense, especially in trying times like these. Maybe some feelow a.net members here should try to see this not only from the "event flyer perspective", but from the cold hard business standpoint.

Hope you're not offended because of my ramblings.  Smile
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Sjoerd
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:20 am

To return to the topic, what about the lower deck amenities ? Will they only be accesible to business class passengers ? This is at least something LH is doing and most other carriers not.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Sabena 690
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:55 am

Sorry, but what are lower deck amenities?

Regards
Frederic
 
Stratofish
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:29 am

Frederic, like an extra cabin under the cabinfloor. Many airlines which fly the 777 also have those but they´re only used as crew rest compartments.

As for the PTVs: (sorry for dragging the topic on)

Being the poor lad I am I always fly economy. First thing that counts are low fares rightly followed by PTVs. You learn to appreciate those on long haul flights. And while Andreas is right in complaining their size, they will grow eventually and most often the next TV screen in your view (if it´s not obstructed, that is) MIGHT be far a way and appear even smaller to your eye than your PTV would. That´s when your eyes really start to hurt. On my last flights about 7 out of 10 of us economy pax used them.
On a side note, until now LH has never been the cheapest one when I flew long-haul. But most Germans will continue to fly LH for irrational reasons even though they could get better fares and better service at other airlines. That´s why LH can afford not to invest in a better eco cabin.

Stratofish
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Sjoerd
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:30 am

The lower deck facilities, extra stuff. Like a galley, lavatory, a bar,... LH is gonna have facilities in the lower deck on their A346 what exactly I don't know, I got it from the Airbus website (news in Airbus4U).
Sjoerd.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:48 am

I fly Economy almost all of the time (unless I get a free upgrade), and I personally don't care about having PTVs or not. On a night flight, I sleep more or less all of the time anyways, and for the daylight flights? Well, I sleep quite a bit too, have some food, usually I chat with the FAs or I am reading a book, those screens you can find on most airlines are just horrible. I rather prefer watching a DVD on my notebook. So the only thing that I am really missing is an internet connection (to come soon) and a power outlet.

Nevertheless, I think it IS time for LH to change their Y class on intercontinental flights, but it's much more urgent to change their domestic/continental service, to distinguish itself from the LCCs.

SailorOrion
 
AirVB
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:17 am

Back to the topic again, does anyone know when the LH A346 is scheduled to be delivered and what routes it will be employed on?

Thanks,
AirVB
 
vermeer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:27 am

There was a thread about it not long ago...
I think it is going FRA - EZE
 
gigneil
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 6:34 am

Its also very interesting to note from the same Airbus 4U blurb that LH apparently has 35 more A340-300s on order.

Is that possibly true? Maybe they just miswrote it...

"The national airline has 45 firm A340s aircraft on order, ten of which are A340-600s."

I wonder if that means total aircraft ordered, including those delivered. But "on order" implies otherwise.

Including the 10 A340-600s and the -200s, LH has 37 A340s. That leaves 8 more A340-300s to be delivered.

N
 
Sjoerd
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 7:52 am

LH only has 10 A346 on order, must be a mistake.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Sjoerd
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:23 am

This is the link to the airbus site, they have a (very) small picture now.

http://www.airbus.com/airbus4u/briefs.asp?brief_id=1352

[Edited 2003-08-20 01:36:06]
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
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Richard28
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 8:27 am

I remember going from LHR-SYD a few years back in Y on BA (ouch!)

the plane on the way out had PTV, but the one on the way back did not (I believe they all have now though)

The journey with the PTV's for me was far less tiresome - just for the skymap info alone - let alone the other channels.

I agree it is strange that LH doesn't have PTV in Y, where most airlines getting new longhaul aircraft delivered are now having video-on-demand installed as standard (eg US, VS, NW, CX).

It is a factor I use in selecting the airline I fly with..........
 
kevs
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:20 am

Pax surely will appreciate PTVs in Y.

However, my experience with PTV on SQ wasn't too good, screens are too small, slow responses. I would buy a few magazines or bring a book rather
than watching one or two movies on those cramped screen. However, I love
those music channels.. :P

I would like to try Y class on EK new airbuses and 777, they have really big screens..

ya.. I agree with TriStar500. In most case, to be a pax, I will put fare,
reliability, punctuality, connection time in higher priority than PTVs.
If Qantas offer a lower price than SQ, surely I wouldn't mind to travel on
QF 767s with no PTVs. PTV is a plus, but still not a must for many travellers.
 
aviasian
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:34 am

Reference was made about the low yield in Economy Class for Lufthansa . . . just go to any travel agent in Singapore and Thailand and compare ticket prices between other carriers and Lufthansa.

You will see that Lufthansa's fares are often way above the other airlines!

With or without PTV, Lufthansa is filling up their planes on the Asian routes and there must be some really compelling reasons why. Their punctuality and flight frequency must surely be plus factors.

Does anyone know if the Lufthansa A346s will be undertaking any proving or test flights to Asia? If so, can anyone provide such schedules?

KC Sim
Bangkok
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:25 pm

Aviasian:
It seems that people prefer having a punctuality, frequency and connection possibilities over PTVs. Considering that LH outweighs the 2nd largest European carrier on the asia routes (BA) by about 2:1 (RTK-wise) it might be an important factor.

Route proving apparently takes place on the FRA-YYZ route some time in November, official routes are
FRA-EZE-SCL
FRA-KIX
FRA-ICN
FRA-YVR

all starting in the winter.

SailorOrion
 
Sabena 690
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:54 pm

Wasn't also JFK in the pipeline for the A346?

Thanks - interesting list. To be honnest, I'm surprised to see YVR over there...

Regards
Frederic
 
StarFlyer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 3:56 pm

If anybody knows any dates on the YVR route... Please post on here! I'd love to fly on a spanking new aircraft like that... and check out Vancouver of course! Big grin
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
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Fly-K
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 4:19 pm

A possible explanation on the number of 45 A340s:

LH had originally ordered 7 342s, one was sold on to Brunei, so the total count would be:

7 342
28 343
10 346
=45

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
SailorOrion
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:58 pm

YVR is the last of the aforementioned routes who get the A340-600, first flight is supposed to be in the second week of February.

SailorOrion
 
Sabena 690
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:05 pm

Am I blind, or has LH no press release on their website about the upcoming A346?

NW made a whole ceremony of the A333, why doesn't LH act a bit more 'enthusiastic' about the new A346?

Regards
Frederic
 
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Fly-K
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:06 pm

It's still some time until the delivery...
I believe the official launch of the new business seat will be in early October.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
vermeer
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:14 pm

I would bet that the 346 will do a couple of "runs" into NYC.
It is almost an unspoken tradition for many airlines to "show" their brand new aircrafts ( and liveries!)at JKF both to the envy of other airlines and for personal prestige.

AZ did it with their 772, VS did it with their new 340's, SK witht he 340 in new colors etc etc etc
 
Sjoerd
Topic Author
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:54 pm

The topic was the lower deck facilities ! Who knows more about that ?
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Wed Aug 20, 2003 11:58 pm

@Sjoerd

....Check Reply number 2.......

Cheers, Thomas
 
Sabena 690
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:14 am

Hi Thomas,

I still don't understand... what are lower deck facilities?

Does this mean that you can go downstairs the aircraft, and have toilets etc over there to save space in the cabin (--> with saving space you can add more seats).

Regards
Frederic
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:38 am

Hi everyone

Not unusual for an a.net thread to go completely off-topic, but in an interesting way.

If LH do indeed place the A346 on the EZE run, great! LH usually offer excellent fares from the UK to Argentina via their FRA hub; these are fares which my family and I usually avail of, due to the fact that BA's fares to the same destination are at least £100 higher in most instances.

Whilst they may not have PTVs in Economy, and the topic of PTVs is very subjective, let me say this:

My choice is based on price alone, barring exceptional circumstances.

When I walk into an economy cabin equipped with PTVs I think "that's nice", but now that I come to think of it, I have found that:

1) I have never enjoyed watching movies on such small screens. Films should be watched on large TV screens, or at the cinema!!

2) The movie selections never seem to match my personal taste (I tend to dislike Hollywood stuff)

3) I keep flicking through the channels (pointlessly, it seems), before always returning to the moving-map display.

Conclusion: PTVs are a waste of my time; they are purely a cosmetic effect/gimmick. I now bring CDs and newspapers/magazines + a window to pass the time. Personal phones are even worse, in the same respects...

Just my personal opinion, btw.

regards

p.s. yes, LH in my opinion are not the best, but they are very good at predictable/reliable A-B transportation (in this sense, no different to many other airlines, even some LCCs...)
 
nethkt
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:57 am

DoorsToManual ....

Try SQ. Their Video Audio on demand (wiseman 3000 system). You will change all the opinion above. It's so much different from BA !!  Wink/being sarcastic
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:04 am

Nethkt, that sounds great and I have nothing against this sort of IFE. All I am saying is that:

1) I won't choose SQ just because of this. If they are too expensive, bye bye. See? All that IFE investment was wasted on me...that's my point.

2) If I do happen to travel SQ again (quite likely, as I have relatives in Australia, and assuming they are cheaper than Korean, who I flew with last time), I am sure I will enjoy playing around with the system. But my other point was that I don't enjoy movies on small screens (spoils many effects in my opinion), and I tend to forever be changing channels to the point that the net gain from a PTV = nil.

But kudos to SQ for providing choice in any case, as I am sure the whole world does not think in the same way as I do!
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: LH A346 Is Doing Test Flights

Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:44 pm

Frederic,

Yes, lower deck facilities means that the passenger cabin is only used to seat passengers, all the additional facilities like restrooms and galleys are downstairs. Whether it really could be finalised this way, I don't know, as I see some troubles arising when it comes to load the food for the galleys, which could then interfere with loading of the cargo on the same "floor" for example... But once this sort of problem is sorted out, it could be a viable alternative to layout a cabin...

Cheers, Thomas

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