B747-437B
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Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:47 pm

Air India is now confirmed to launch 3x weekly service from Frankfurt FRA to Chicago ORD from December 4, 2003. This service will be in addition to the already existing 3x weekly service from London LHR to Chicago ORD. All services will be operated by Boeing 747-400 aircraft with 3-class service featuring Flat Beds in First Class and the newly upgraded Business Class Slumberette seats with 170 degrees of recline and 62" of pitch. Flights will be loaded for sale into various CRS systems by the weekend. Air India will have full 5th freedom traffic rights on the transatlantic sectors.

The new flights will be designated as AI 127/126 and will operate on the following schedule.

AI 127/126 (Mon/Thu/Sat)

BLR d 0355
BOM a 0525 d 0745
FRA a 1200 d 1330
ORD a 1530 d 1900
FRA a 1000+1 d 1145+1
BOM a 2359+1 d 0125+2
BLR a 0255+2

The BOM-BLR-BOM legs will operate with 744 equipment on Mon/Sat only. The service will operate with A310 equipment on other days.

Air India will now offer 20 weekly direct services between India and the US, more than all other carriers on the route combined. The airline operates daily from Mumbai and Delhi to New York JFK via London LHR and daily (begins October 27) from Mumbai to Newark EWR via Paris CDG in addition to the existing and new services to Chicago ORD via London LHR and Frankfurt FRA respectively.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:50 pm

Do you have any pics of their new seats?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Bobs89irocz
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:16 pm

Sweet, im looking foward to seeing that A310 comming in with the Air Inida colors....im not a Scarbus fan at all but will be nice to see a different breed of wide bodys come in to ORD...the only other A310 operator to ORD is FedEx, that doesnt happend very ofter they normall bring in the A300 along with DHL......crap, im rambeling again, sorry guys.
 
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:28 pm

err... where does it say they'll fly the 310 to ORD...?
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 7:34 pm

Dream on.. if anyone's expecting AI's 310s in CHI

It's going to be B744s all the way.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
9V-SVE
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 8:19 pm

LOL I doubt the A310 can even operate FRA-ORD nonstop  Big grin

The A310 will only operate the BLR-BOM leg of the flight on Mondays and Saturdays. The 744 will operate the leg on Thursdays and the BOM-FRA-ORD leg on all three days.
 
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:34 pm

How much farther is PRG-EWR on an A310 than FRA-ORD??? I could see an AI A310 in ORD... It would compete w/ PIA? Or am I totally nuts and Czech ops their A300 to EWR and PIA ops their A300 to ORD??? It's too early for me as it's 0831 am CST.

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behramjee
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:59 pm

Good move on Air India's part as theyre now finally realizing the potential they have with USA routes.

Since theyre going to leasing even more B 744s from Korean Air or some other company...why dont they seriously look into the about to be 7 parked SIA B 744s? They have PTVs in every seat plus an amazing F & J class product similar to the new product of AIs.

PIA will be sending B 777-200ERs from May 04 to ORD, JFK, LHR and YYZ nonstop from Pakistan. At least thats what the plan is. Definitely nonstop to LHR, but I bet it would still be via MAN and BHX to JFK-YYZ & ORD. PKs B 772s will be in 2 classes ...327 seats all having PTVs and J class will be having a 150-160 recline and a seat pitch of 62 inches similar to their ex-CX B 743s.

Whats the plan for Air India and USA West Coast flights to LAX or SFO? I read that BLR-SFO was in the works.
 
gamps
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:19 pm

AI still doesn't get it as far as Bangalore goes. I guess Bangalore leg of this ops is to satisfy the local IT industry demand for direct Bangalore - Europe flights. But what is the point in flying from Bangalore to Bombay, wait there for two hours and then fly to FRA? When Lufthansa is operating direct Bangalore - Frankfurt, why would anyone want to take a flight to FRA via Bombay which takes good 3 or 4 hours more? Ofcourse AI offerring will be cheap and I think main target here is Indian parents visiting their children in EU/US. I have a feeling that Bangalore leg will be axed within few months of ops when they realize that there are hardly 20-30 passengers in 747/310 from Bangalore to Bombay.

Kinda lame strategy to silence Lufthansa/Bangalore's demand for more flights to Bangalore/EU I guess. "Hey we also fly to Frankfurt (albeit taking several hours more), so don't ask for more flights to Bangalore"

Cheers
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:46 pm

"AI still doesn't get it as far as Bangalore goes. I guess Bangalore leg of this ops is to satisfy the local IT industry demand for direct Bangalore - Europe flights."

Uh. Bombay is Air India's HUB.
Airlines transfer passengers through their hubs. Erego the blr-bom leg. Lufthansa's blr flights are not terminators into Frankfurt for the majority of its pax. They merely hub and spoke the BLR traffic through FRA into the EU, the UK and the US. If AI could develop a rational hub and spoke system through BLR with banks of flights coming into Bom from Indian and Asian destinations coinciding with banks of flights leaving for the West, then I suppose they can be a viable alternative to the big EU majors. But I suspect that they're too busy trying to get generators for their stored inflight DVDs - a task that any idiot with a second-rate HSC education in the private sector in India could have done in less than 30 minutes.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:50 pm

Kinda lame strategy to silence Lufthansa/Bangalore's demand for more flights to Bangalore/EU I guess. "Hey we also fly to Frankfurt (albeit taking several hours more), so don't ask for more flights to Bangalore"

The Government of India has announced an open sky for all West European and US carriers for the next two winter schedules. The last winter, LH took full advantage of this offer and operated 6/7 FRA/BLR/FRA with pretty high seat load factors.

So at least for the next couple of years, LH need not worry about AI's BLR/BOM/FRA service as a line to keep them out of the market. AI could pick-up good traffic ex BLR if the price is right. Believe me there are enough people who finance their own trips who will opt for this even if they have to wait a couple of hours in BOM. Moreover, AI has some excellent SPA deals with US carriers by which they would be able to carry pax for points beyond CHI as well at a very competitive price even if it is served by LH or their codeshare partners. However LH is pretty well ensconced in BLR with some superb corporate deals to the large houses that matter. On the other hand, AI could make the best of their corporate deals with Tata Infotech and a couple of others with whom they have an India-wide deal.

The going could get tough if a couple of more European carriers opt to come in BLR.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
behramjee
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:04 am

A solution to this problem can be like that of PIA.

Fly the ORD route BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD all the way with 744, make the flight BLR-BOM stop in BOM for 1.30 hrs max but do not change aircraft, just make the BLR pax sit in the aircraft for 1.30 hrs like PIA does for KHI-LHE/ISB-JFK/YYZ flights. This change of aircraft nonsense especially in Indian airports which arent clean and less organized plus very very security conscious is a big big hassle for BLR pax to endure (esp if theyre changing from dom terminal to intl terminal) and if I was a BLR pax...anyday my choice would be LH even if its RS 1000-3000 more...plus LH is anyday a better airline than AI plus less time for their flights and transitting in FRA is superb.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:30 am

Fly the ORD route BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD all the way with 744, make the flight BLR-BOM stop in BOM for 1.30 hrs max but do not change aircraft

The plan is to operate the aircraft on a BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR-BOM rotation. Same aircraft on ORD-BLR via BOM, but a change of plane (for cleaning/servicing) on the BLR-ORD via BOM. This applies to the Mon/Sat flights. On Thursdays of course, the BOM-BLR-BOM service will be operated by an A310 instead.

However, all AI flights arrive/depart from the International terminal II-C in BOM. Passengers will clear customs/immigration at BLR itself and will be in sterile transit in BOM.

what is the point in flying from Bangalore to Bombay, wait there for two hours and then fly to FRA? When Lufthansa is operating direct Bangalore - Frankfurt, why would anyone want to take a flight to FRA via Bombay which takes good 3 or 4 hours more

By your same logic, when Air India is operating same aircraft service BLR-ORD, why would anywone want to take a flight to FRA, then wait there to CHANGE planes before proceeding on to the USA? As I mentioned on August 8 on this thread, the main reason the 744s are going into BLR is to offer the 3-class product all the way through in the market (same reason they currently fly them on AMD tags to the EWR flights). Right now, BLR O&D traffic commands approximately 20% of AI's load on India-Chicago routes, which can undoubtedly be boosted to about 30% or so with the same-aircraft service. The flights will also be timed to connect with the CDG/EWR services and giving a chuck of connection traffic there too. The rest of the pax on the tag leg can either be local domestic traffic or transfer traffic to the many Gulf destinations served from BOM and not BLR. Hence, it makes a LOT more sense for AI to fly this route via BOM purely for traffic reasons, without even going into the additional logistics that flying BLR-Europe nonstop would entail.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:50 am

"Hence, it makes a LOT more sense for AI to fly this route via BOM purely for traffic reasons, without even going into the additional logistics that flying BLR-Europe nonstop would entail."

Would you elaborate on what additional logistics would be required to operate BLR-Europe nonstop?

The only one I can think of offhand is crew positioning.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:57 am

The only one I can think of offhand is crew positioning.

Well, that is a major one but not the biggest one. Aircraft positioning would be a major issue as well. The 744 fleet is based out of BOM, so a BOM-BLR positioning leg would be needed to get them to BLR anyway. To operate BOM-BLR-FRA is simply assinine when BOM is clearly a significantly larger market and is also about 500 miles closer! Hence the BLR-BOM-FRA route makes more sense.

Crew positioning is also an issue because BLR is not even a layover station right now. Additionally, with only 3x operations through there, it would mean leaving a valuable 744 crew on a total of 4-5 days of layover there (in addition to the time spent on layover in FRA and ORD) on an ORD pattern. AI is already desperately short of crew and this would cause way more trouble than it would be worth.

Finally, the BLR market is simply not strong enough to support a 744 on O&D to either FRA or ORD. It is one thing for LH to operate into their hub with a huge network to feed, but quite another for AI to run a point-to-point operation with 400+ seats.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:59 am

How much farther is PRG-EWR on an A310 than FRA-ORD??? I could see an AI A310 in ORD... It would compete w/ PIA? Or am I totally nuts and Czech ops their A300 to EWR and PIA ops their A300 to ORD??? It's too early for me as it's 0831 am CST.

PRG-EWR is 4095 miles
FRA-ORD is 4393 miles

Yes OK does operate A310 on PRG-EWR. In fact LH used to operate FRA-EWR some years ago with an A310 as well (approx 3869 miles). It may be entail some load restriction for FRA-ORD though AFAIK LH did not have any load restriction for FRA-EWR. As far as PK A300s go, I don't see them venturing beyond the Gulf/Middle East leave alone North America.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:03 am

-437B,

Thanks for the reply. What about deadheading a crew in? Would deadhead time put a crew over their duty limits on a flight to Europe?
 
FRALIM
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:05 am

one question: will this new flight BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR be in adition to the current AI 164/165 BOM-DEL-FRA-DEL-BOM fights or will the three weekly service of AI164/165 be replaced?

Cheers
Chris
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:12 am

will this new flight BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR be in adition to the current AI 164/165 BOM-DEL-FRA-DEL-BOM fights

As of now it is slated to be in ADDITION to those flights.

AI 165 will operate BOM-DEL-FRA on Tu/Fr/Su with 747 Classics
AI 127 will operate BLR-BOM-FRA on Mo/Th/Sa with 747-400s

On the return, there will be 2 AI flights FRA-India on Tu/Fr/Su. AI 164 will operate 2 hours later than AI 126 on Tu/Fr/Su to allow ORD-DEL pax to connect at FRA. Outbound pax DEL-ORD will fly DEL-FRA on the codeshare AI 6761 opb Lufthansa and then connect to AI 127 at FRA.

[Edited 2003-08-22 18:22:06]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FRALIM
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:15 am

ok, i already answered the question myself. I checked at Amadeus and i.e. for 06JAN there are two AI flights from FRA to BOM listed AI 164 and AI 126!!!!
But I think the new flights are not bookable yet as at at "Availability" it says "Shuttle" instead of "Yes" or "No"... don't know what that means....

Chris
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:15 am

What about deadheading a crew in? Would deadhead time put a crew over their duty limits on a flight to Europe?

Well, you could either deadhead a crew in on the same flight (creating the problem of what to do with the operating crew for the first leg) or on another flight (creating the problem of starting up a layover station). Duty time would be an issue indeed, but you can fix that by adding a 3rd pilot. However, that all costs money and really makes no sense for any and all of the reasons I mentioned above.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:24 am

But I think the new flights are not bookable yet as at at "Availability" it says "Shuttle" instead of "Yes" or "No"... don't know what that means....

As I said in my first post, the flights should be open for sale through various CRS systems by this weekend. They have been progressively loaded into most systems over the last few hours.

As always, you get the real scoop right here before it happens!  Big grin

[Edited 2003-08-22 18:25:17]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
FRALIM
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:30 am

@B747-437B: didn't see your post when I wrote mine. But thanx for the info!!!

I am a little surprised to see a AI/LH codeshare there! I didn't know that was planned. Will the DEL-FRA be the only code-shared flight?

I guess that means AI will move to T1 in FRA when the new flight is installed.

Chris
 
Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:35 am

The AI/LH codeshare does not only extend to DEL but to BOM services of LH as well. And no, they wont shift to T1 at FRA.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 1:38 am

AI codeshares on LH's DEL-FRA flights 4x weekly on days they don't operate their own DEL-FRA service. The also codeshare 3x weekly on LH's BOM-FRA flights, as well as on AF for daily CDG-FRA flights that connect to AI's BOM-CDG service.

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:22 am

Most westbound traffic from India seems to come from the south/west and is usually US/UK bound. AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its westbounds via DEL. They're probably doing it only because DEL happens to be the national capital.
Both LH and BA are making a killing on their MAA flights with LH doing pretty well even on its BLR flight. The main reason for this seems to be the excellent LH and BA connections to different destinations in North America from FRA and LHR respectively. Infact, the FRA-MAA LH flight is codeshared with UA!

I guess AI should look southwards in India, given that even most of the Gulf/SE asia bound crowd seems to come from there.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:32 am

AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its westbounds via DEL

Just curious, but where do you get the idea that AI is operating "all" westbounds via DEL. The only services via DEL are the LHR/JFK and the FRA flights, both which command very heavy loads ex-DEL. The LHR/ORD and CDG/EWR as well as the new FRA/ORD services won't go near DEL.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:07 am

Most westbound traffic from India seems to come from the south/west and is usually US/UK bound. AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its westbounds via DEL.

If I may add to B747-437B's comments:

No. its not as if North India has lower loads westbound. For starters, you could look at the number of Sikhs in Canada, UK and USA. They are all from the Northern Indian state of Punjab and easily the single largest ethnic group of Indians abroad. FYKI ATQ, has a couple of CIS carriers operating out of there offering connxns to Europe and Poo - a UK based tour operator is all set to bring in his B757 charters BHX/ATQ from winter. Secondly, DEL is fast becoming the corporate capital of India with a host of large western multinational companies based here or in its near vicinity - all of them use gateway DEL. Thirdly, there is also a very heavy concentration of exporters in Northern India especially DEL, Faridabad, Moradabad who travel extensively to Europe, US on business besides being regulars at most of the trade-fairs.

Lets not forget that AC's decision to operate non-stops to YYZ from DEL effective winter is based on such thinking and that UA had also seriously considered DEL-CHI non-stops before crewing problems put paid to their ideas.

If there is a laggard of a market in India, its the East which still has to catch up in terms of air travel growth with the rest of the country.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
gamps
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:07 am

B747-437B,

Thanks for the info.

I hope you see where I am coming from. Tickets to Bangalore, especially in Biz is so tough to get at the last moment, especially from Westcoast of US. Being in IT biz, we take decision to send/get people for discussion etc at the last minute and we want to get there quickly. The current best option we have to get to Bangalore quickest is SFO - FRA - BLR. And this is hopelessly oversold everytime. Just last week I saw LH offerring vouchers for 600 Euros+2 nights stay if anyone volunteered to get off the plane at Bangalore. We can always fly via SIN/LHR/BOM etc but they take many hours more with many connections. BTW the connection time at FRA for Indian flights is hardly one hour when you fly with LH. By the time your plane from Bangalore arrives at the gate, the flights to USA are almost ready for boarding.

Bottomline:sometimes we can not get biz done with Bangalore if the same situation continues. Especially with outsourcing boom I think it is time Bangalore get the attention it deserves from Air India. It is time to get out of Bombay centric thinking irrespective of the fact that BOM is the hub. It is very surprising that LH is not allowed to operate extra flights and now with this AI arrangement I guess they can never get additional rights (exept during open skies window). I also heard GOI turned down proposal of BA to operate direct flight to Bangalore. I only hope that with the upcoming talks with UAE, atleast Emirates or Qatar Airways will fly to Bangalore soon. That combined with their plan to fly to USA direct from Dubai will be a great boon for us Westcoasters.

Cheers

 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:50 am

in IT biz, we take decision to send/get people for discussion etc at the last minute and we want to get there quickly

Does arriving at 2am rather than 3am really make that much of a difference to you guys? Ditto with spending 23 hrs flying versus 22 hrs. Jeez, tough crowd.

BTW the connection time at FRA for Indian flights is hardly one hour when you fly with LH.

Wonderful. That means a 90 minute delay leads to an extra night in Frankfurt.  Smile

It is time to get out of Bombay centric thinking

With all due respect, BOM is at least five times the market that BLR is or ever will be. Air India (or anyone else) would be damn stupid to give up on their core markets to chase IT folks who have been historically fickle with their travel dollars anyway.

It is very surprising that LH is not allowed to operate extra flights

Why is it surprising? When LH applied for rights to fly to BLR, they were allocated a certain number of weekly seats on the route. Then the Indian Government declared a UNILATERAL open skies policy for the winter season (and then extended it twice) allowing LH to operate additional extrabilateral flights. But of course, its not fashionable to praise the GOI for that. Lets just demand more rights permanently instead.

I also heard GOI turned down proposal of BA to operate direct flight to Bangalore

Damn straight they did. The Indian government is not a charity doling out rights to anyone who asks when the reciprocal governments are not allowing Air India to exercise their own rights. AI is entitled to 17 weekly services between India-UK as per the bilateral agreement. Right now, they are only allowed to operate 11 services thanks to LHR not making slots available. If BA wants more rights to operate to India, they have to give AI equal access to the UK. Simple reciprocity.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:52 pm

" If BA wants more rights to operate to India, they have to give AI equal access to the UK. Simple reciprocity."

Flights that AI don't have the wherewithall to operate. So, its a moot point. In the end, the Indian customer is the ostensible loser. AI whines about having no viable slots at LHR even as it has no planes to operate those routes, BA flights are full, and the hapless Indian flyer takes Emirates. Or Qatar Airways. Or Gulf Air.

Of course, the Indian flyer is only too happy to do so.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:13 pm

AI whines about having no viable slots at LHR even as it has no planes to operate those routes

Come now Jaysit, please don't tell me you believe that.

Air India has 12 747s currently on the active list, all of which are capable of operating India-LHR nonstops if slots became available. There are 2 more 747s due this winter. They could easily cover the allocated 17 frequencies in a heartbeat with the existing fleet.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
behramjee
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:24 pm

Air India's B 747s are also -200s out of which a vast majority and parked and incapable of flying any longer on long haul routes such as those to LHR.

This all could have been avoided if politics didnt prevent AI since 1993 from deciding whether to order 12-20 A 340s or B 777s which would have been used today for those extra LHR flights.

If LHR is a problem then try and get LGW. The airline anyways to EWR and JFK so whats the problem with LHR + LGW? So far EK has the monopoly from LGW to anywhere in Asia and Australia.
 
AlitaliaORD
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:31 pm

thats great news!
Air India offers great fares, so American, United and Lufthansa are gonna have to get their hands dirty if they wanna coincide on this route.
Joy To The World, All The Boys and Girls, Joy to the Fishes in the Deep Blue Sea, Joy to You and Me
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:43 pm

Air India's B 747s are also -200s out of which a vast majority and parked and incapable of flying any longer on long haul routes such as those to LHR.

Please check your facts before you post them.

The 12 747s that I referred to are the ACTIVE fleet which consists only of aircraft in the current operational rotation. This includes 7x 744s (ESM, ESN, ESO, ESP, EVA, EVB, EVJ), 2x 743s (EPW, EPX) and 3x 742s (EGA, EGB, EGC).

There is only one 742 parked right now (EFU). The other three are 1980s deliveries and are doing just fine. They regularly operate on routes to FRA and NRT when passenger demands are too high for the 743 Combi so they are no stranger to longhaul services.

As far as LGW goes, anyone familiar with London will tell you that the Indian communities are located in the Southwest around Southall, Hounslow etc... that border Heathrow. Going into LGW is a waste of time and energy.
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Vimanav
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:24 pm

Flights that AI don't have the wherewithall to operate.

Do quite agree with Jaysit on this view. While AI might be able to serve LHR with additional frequencies if the slots were granted, lets look at the larger picture.

What about the unused traffic rights that we have to various other European, Asian and Australian points. In my opinion, the success of LH/BA/KL/NW/EK etc. in India amply reflects AI's inability to tap our own markets to its fullest potential. It is a pity that India, with one of the world's fastest growing markets and high spending power of its travelling public does not have an international carrier with a global reach of its own (lets forget the codeshares and other arm-twisting tactics that the Govt has adopted to keep AI's head above the water).

B747-437B

Is Krishna Deva Raya/EFU also in storage ? since when ? Also Samudragupta/EGA is a 1979 manufacture and a late 1979 delivery.

Gamps
BTW the connection time at FRA for Indian flights is hardly one hour when you fly with LH.

The earliest US departure (excluding LH codeshare) is 1000hrs. LH flights from India arrive latest by 0810 (BLR) all the others are in the 0700-0730 range. Hence there is ample connection time outbound. Even on the inbound, one makes it quite comfortably even though the connection times are marginally lower than on the outbound to US.

rgds//Vimanav
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B747-437B
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:20 am

Is Krishna Deva Raya/EFU also in storage ? since when ?

EFU is grounded at BOM sans engines since January. She is in need of a D-check which is simply not economical to provide now.

Samudragupta/EGA is a 1979 manufacture and a late 1979 delivery

Fair enough. December 23, 1979 was delivery date but service introduction wasn't until January 1, 1980 to NRT.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:43 am

"AI whines about having no viable slots at LHR even as it has no planes to operate those routes

Come now Jaysit, please don't tell me you believe that."

The 743s pretty much transit through Bombay as their utilization is very high. The 744s are packed on the US routes. What will AI operate on an additional 6 weekly frequencies to LHR?

I still don't understand how the UK can grant Emirates and Qatar Air and other sundry carriers landing rights into Heathrow at the drop of a hat while Air India can't get its additional 6 slots? There has to be more to this story than what we hear in the press. The BAA is obnoxious; but the GOI is not exactly trustworthy either.

As far as flying to LGW is concerned, I am sure that if Jet Airways were designated an international carrier by the GOI and given slots at LGW, Indians in Southhall and Hounslow would schlep out to LGW to fly them. Give them the right price, and they will fly Aeroflot from Stansted !
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:48 am

The 744s are packed on the US routes. What will AI operate on an additional 6 weekly frequencies to LHR?

The current 744 schedule of 15 US flights plus 1 LHR terminator requires 4.5 aircraft to operate. AI has 7 aircraft running this schedule meaning that there are always at least 1.5 aircraft on reserve and 1 aircraft on a Saudi run. A daily additional BOM-LHR-BOM would easily be able to be covered by the reserve craft or by swapping a 747 Classic to the Saudi routes.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:54 am

Interesting.
Isn't AI in final stages of negotiating for its 6 remaining slots into Heathrow now?
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:57 am

Isn't AI in final stages of negotiating for its 6 remaining slots into Heathrow now?

Nope. The slots are not forthcoming so there will be no additional service this winter. The UK got what they wanted though with permission for BA to operate as many additional flights to BOM/DEL/MAA/CCU as they want from November - February and for VS to increase service to DEL in the same period.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service

Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:06 am

"Nope. The slots are not forthcoming so there will be no additional service this winter. The UK got what they wanted though with permission for BA to operate as many additional flights to BOM/DEL/MAA/CCU as they want from November - February and for VS to increase service to DEL in the same period."

I don't get it. Who is negotiating for the Indian government here? A passel of dunces?

Shades of the East India company negotiating with the doomed Indian Maharajahs, circa 17th Century AD.
Atheism is Myth Understood.