Bobs89irocz
Topic Author
Posts: 599
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Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:48 pm

I have a VERY reliable source on the inside of AA. I cant believe this airline is still in business, i guess i should go buy an MD-80 and put an American Airlines bird on the tail and have a 90% load factor so i could make some money. I have to vent to you guys alittle because i have been such a big AA fan all my life, now i realize what a big problem AA has on its hands. Airplanes coming into a mantnance base and only fixing the parts that are written up. If a tire needs to be change really bad, well to bad. They arent fixing that until the tire blows up or its written up. I guess preventive maintnance is unnecessary now...hmm makes ya wonder what is going on. Why is a 767 thrust reverser sitting in Cincinnati, Oh when AA doesnt even fly the 767 in there? Or have the equipment to change one? Talk about a waste of money. Pilots are refusing to fly airplanes because of maintnance not being kept up on there airplanes. "guess this flights not going out today because the tires are to worn and the pilot doesnt want to risk the airplane" Nice waste of $30,000. Mechanics pay being cute so they dont give a crap about working on planes because they have to have 2nd jobs to pay there bills which makes them tired and all they do is go to work at night and sleep on the airplanes instead of doing a B-check. The person i know went to check an MD-80 after a B-check and 38 reading lights didnt work aftwards. Here again, makes you wonder what else they didnt pay attention to. The new CEO is an ex TWA head honcho guy. Nice move, but a guy in charge of AA that ran TWA in the gound. Why did AA buy a bankrupt airline anyways? When Bob Crandall left AA had $6 BILLION in the bank, now AA is $8 BILLION in dept, granted i know some is from September 11 but with the airline now haveing more of a load factor then ever before dont think they have to be making some money now? So why doesnt it show? Because the guys running the shows are taking back the money they lost. Guys are already making almost a million a year off this airline and now they take the mechanics/PILOTS/FA/Managers pay away. This has affected my life in a BIG way, i wanted to go to school to be a pilot and now i cant because of this darn pay cut. Good thing i was smart and saved my own money....i have SO much more stuff to say im just tired of typing and i know i have rambled on and on. Please, anyone with anymore info on this topic please add....Thanks for reading.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:59 pm

Instead of venting, why don't you support AA until their last breath. God knows they are trying, but like you said, they are in debt. I'm pretty sure that if a tire needed changing really bad, they'd change it. Oh boy, 38 reading lights don't work. Yeah sure Not really a necessity though. It doesn't affect whether the plane will fly safely, which is what maintenance really cares about right now. They don't really care about you wanting to finish 'The Shining' in-flight. Granted, they are in big trouble, but with enough support, they will pull through this big mess, and one day will be able to look behind it. But if you keep venting like this, who would expect any airline to pull through?
Puhdiddle
 
Bobs89irocz
Topic Author
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:09 pm

If i keep venting like this? What impact to i make on AA? NOT ONE...i do support the Airline but NOT morons....38 reading lights are out on an MD-80...yeah i know, not a problem for you or me but what about the paying business man that is making a night flight from DFW to Calgary (4 hour flight) at night and needs to read some paper work. I dont think hes going to be happy. Remember the passangers are the ones that write the pay checks. When people slack off and dont do there job because there contract was cut it really pisses me off. Expecially when it comes to flying. Besides, i was just making a point that mechanics fall asleep half way through there shift instead of doing the job right. Makes you wonder about the things that arent obvious that they didnt fix. Thats whats scarry. Before all this crap and the aquirring of TWA's aircraft AA had a very well kept fleet of Aircraft...now if you guys only knew what a problem with maintnace they have you would think twice about somethings. I dont AA is the only airline with this problem. I know CO and UA do to but i dont know to what extent it is like i do AA.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 10:56 pm

Well from all that I read I have come to the conclusion that AA management has created a lot of there problems. With Carty pleading poverty only to find him stealing from the cookie jar, so to say. Also I have not read a whole lot on AA and its efforts to work with the employees in these trying times. Such as keeping them motivated and focused on seeing these problems through. That right there is why you see the lack luster attitude, and over worked employees snapping at customers.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AIR757200
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:04 pm


For your information Bobs89irocz, any airline that has something written up but is not a no-go item, that flight will operate. You post is mostly speculation.

If a tire needs to be change really bad, well to bad.
-Do you have the maint. log to prove this? Or your very reliable source has copies of the log?

Why is a 767 thrust reverser sitting in Cincinnati
-Did you very reliable source advise you that sometimes, I'm not saying this is the case here, that airlines share parts?

Oh when AA doesn't even fly the 767 in there?
-Well, DTW doesn't get 767's, but we've seen them plenty of times for diversions, etc.?

Pilots are refusing to fly airplanes because of maintenance not being kept up on there airplanes.
-The only thing I've heard internally was the objection to fly the A300 by a small group of pilots after Flt. 587. Those pilots are transferring (or in the process) to other equipment.

The person I know went to check an MD-80 after a B-check and 38 reading lights didnt work aftwards.
-This is not a no-go item. What's the big deal? There are over 150 other lights that operate.

This has affected my life in a BIG way, i wanted to go to school to be a pilot and now i cant because of this darn pay cut.
-There are plenty of other airlines you can apply too, if AA was to start rehiring, they have a long recall list to work off.

And finally, Is AA really going to make it? In my opinion, yes. There are still plenty of bumps ahead.

 
flymia
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:16 pm

It is reallu hard for the Largest Airline in the World to go out. We have talked about this so many times. Goverment wont let AA go out. 105,000 people work for AA. No airline would be able to fill their routes that are needed for an long time and none could ever afford it. Why cant the reverser be Delta?
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
luv2fly
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:22 pm

They said the same about PanAm and the government as well, and we all know that the original PanAm is no longer flying.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:51 pm

Yes...AA will make it. Just like UA, DL, NW and CO will. Every airline has problems right now, some more so than others. This is a great time for those airlines to restructure/revisit their operations and make adjustments and cuts where needed. Some choose Ch. 11, some can do it without going that route. So far, AA has avoided it, and probably will.

A little confused on the CEO comment: My understanding is that Gerald Arpey started his career in '82 as a financial analyst for AA, and has been with AA his whole career. I don't understand the TWA connection there?

I'm not trying to discredit your source by any means, but morale is low at both UA and AA (I also have two very reliable sources  Smile) and your source may be very down at the moment on the state of things, which is understandable. As a result, that person may be focusing on the bad parts, but I do believe there is room for optimism at both AA and UA.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
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STT757
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:14 am

"Why is a 767 thrust reverser sitting in Cincinnati, Oh when AA doesn't even fly the 767 in there? Or have the equipment to change one? Talk about a waste of money"

A great book to read is "From worst to First", its the story of CEO Gordon Bethune's remarkable turn around of CO.

Gordon Bethune in the book gives alot of examples of some of the in-efficiencies he had to correct , simple ones such as...

They had a parts warehouse for their A300 aircraft in Greensboro North Carolina, only problem was that they did not fly A300s into Greensboro. They were trucking the parts from Greensboro to Newark, Houston etc..

He changed that and a whole host of other in-efficiencies which eventually started making CO one of the most efficient airlines in the industry.

It seems from the outside that AA is suffering some of the same problems, they were so big and in-efficient but still making money that no one really made any efforts to streamline AA's operations. Storing 767 parts in Cincinnati is not a good idea, someone needs to scrutinize AA from top to bottom and immediately make the "obvious" corrections.

Correcting obvious in-efficiencies and creating and investing in new technologies and procedures to further streamline their operation would go a long way to returning the company to profitability.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
luv2fly
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:27 am

STT757

The book from "Wrost to first" is wonderful and insightful on the airline industry as a whole. I think your analogy is 100% on the money. The thing is it is such an easy fix to correct some of the airline ills that no one wants to believe that such a simple fix could achieve the results they want.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AA7771stClass
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:35 am

It never ceases to amaze me how people with "sources" seem to know that the airline is doing horrible things, or they think they can run it better themselves. AA has to be doing all that it can to correct its situation...it's just a slow process. Nothing against your source, just be careful because most of the stuff on this forum is heresay and rumor.
 
TokyoNarita
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:39 am

Why is a 767 thrust reverser sitting in Cincinnati..
*************************************

Don't you mean thrust reverser parts are shipped from Cincinnati? As far as I know, GE engines and its parts are made and assembled in Cincinnati. If so, what's the problem? Every airlines have spare parts but sometimes you have to get shipped from the manufacturer. It seems like a routine process.

For your information, the FAA allows a flight to be operated with certain equipment inoperative. We go by the MEL (Minimum Equipment List) and defer certain items and yet maintain acceptable level of safety. You really have to look at it in a bigger picture and see how an airline operate to make such a comment. The pilots always operate less than perfect airplane and it is still safe and legal!!

I have a hard time believing your story at AA. Someday you will understand when you become an airline employee (I assumed you are not) that everyone's primary concern is safety and every effort has been made to accomplish that goal.

TokyoNarita.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:45 am

They had a parts warehouse for their A300 aircraft in Greensboro North Carolina, only problem was that they did not fly A300s into Greensboro. They were trucking the parts from Greensboro to Newark, Houston etc..

Once again, the original message was "a 767 thrust reverser". There may be hundreds of reasons why a part may be in CVG- can anyone confirm that AA actually uses CVG as a *parts warehouse* for the 767?

Where's the facts guys?!?! Or are we just assuming from our reliable sources? I worked for AA and I have my "reliable sources" but I wouldn't and hardly comment what they are on this site.
 
capt078
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:09 am

i believe aa will make it. i do not believe that ua will make it, which would be the best thing for american.

do not kid yourself about losing one of the biggest airlines in the world/country. let's not forget about pan am and eastern (not to mention braniff, western, national). granted, these were smaller than aa or ual, but certainly the demise of a major is not impossible. many analysts argue that ual will liquidate because there is too much capacity in the domestic market, and because the airline is too inefficiently run (read marginal costs are in excess of marginal revenue). the government will use certain liberties to help sustain (chapter 11, military charters, subsidization for certain routes, local tax shelters...), but these are only effective to a point.

regarding the comment about how it is "really hard for the largest airline in the world to go out", this is somewhat true. there are many industries where it is cheaper to continue operating at a loss than to go out of business. airlines, railroad companies, factories, etc., all have significant costs of going out of business. this is why government interventions under the bankruptcy code were created. in ual's case, it was losing too much money to continue operating without change, but could not cease operations immediately either. chapter 11 allows the airline to restructure its debts and costs. however, if the airline is not able to maintain itself after reorganizing, dissolving the airine would be a possibility.
 
tekelberry
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:06 am

Wow....you must have had a hard time making all this up.

1) I have never heard of a problem with AA maintenance. What in the hell are you talking about?

2) Gerard Arpey has never worked for TWA. He joined AMR Corp. in 1982 as a financial analyst.

3) AA is not in debt. Debt = bankruptcy. AA currently has $2.4 billion sitting in the bank, along with its short term investments. They are expecting a profit in Q4.

4) I think pay cuts to employees is better than no jobs at all.

This thread should be deleted. Your post is full of a bunch of unsubstantiated lies.
 
capt078
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:16 am

Tekelbery: to whom did you address your most recent message? i ask this because suggesting people are writing "unsubstantiated lies" is a surefire way to evoke negative and reactionary comments. you sound like a little school girl stomping her feet because she didn't get asked to the dance. relax, this thread is about conjecture. people are speculating about what they think. i agree, most of it is unsubstantiated, but calling them lies is a bit bellicose, don't you think?
 
tekelberry
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 4:56 am

Capt078,

I was responding to the original poster. Most of what he said ARE unsubstantiated lies.
 
Bobs89irocz
Topic Author
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:24 am

I could get copys of the log book to prove all the cases i just talked about.

YES, there really is a 767 thrust reverser sitting in Cincinnati. Who cares if a plane was diverted there. Why do they need a part there when they dont come in on a regular schedule?

38 reading lights are out on the MD-80, Yeah, big deal but AGAIN. Like i said already, its not a "no go" item but its there for the customer, if you dont keep the customer happy then they will just change airlines. When a mechanic is suppose to do a B-check and only does a half-fast job doing it so he can go to sleep in the airplane before he has to take it to the gate then there is a problem and those lights should have been fixed.

All that i have stated is FACT. Im not saying names for fear of someone coming on this sight and knowing who my sources are, but they are two level 5 (managers) 1 level 4 (supervisor) and 3 crew cheifs. There is so other things i will post later to back up my statements but right now im headed to ha friends party/ his wifes baby shower (congrates Rick).

 
tekelberry
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 5:55 am

It blows my mind that you are making a big deal about some reading lights being out on 1 SP80. I would rather have the mechanic concentrate more on the airplane's necessary functions rather than freaking out about some reading lights.

There's a 767 thrust reverser in Cincinnati. Point is? When has AA ever had problems with their thrust reversers?

Here are your lies:

1) AA is in debt by $8 million dollars. They have $2.4 billion in bank and short-term investments.

2) Pilots not flying planes because of tires? The only case where AA pilots refused to fly is on the Airbus A300s. They didn't fly because they were paranoid about Airbus, it's not that they didn't trust AA maintenance.

3) Gerard Arpey is an ex-TWA "honcho guy". Not true.

4) Maintenance workers having a second job and sleeping on the airplanes. Where is that logbook to back that up?

5) Gerard Aprey (CEO) makes millions of dollars. His annual salery is around $500,000.

6) They only have pay cuts because the big CEOs want to run the airline into the ground and take money while they're at it. What are you talking about? Gerard Arpey has turned the airline around into becoming profitable again. There was no other way to do that if they didn't cut their employees saleries. Rest assured, they have been doing a lot more to becoming profitable again in Q4.
 
milemaster
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:39 am

These "AA is F*cked" are getting really old. Quite possibly becoming as becoming as repetitive as:

"What is your favorite livery?"
"When is NWA retiring their DC9's?"
"How is UA doing?"
"What is your least favorite livery?"
"DL needs a new livery!"
"AA needs a new livery!"
"UA needs a new livery!"
"US needs a new livery!"
"HP needs a new livery!"
"Larry Hagman needs a new liver!"
"BA needs a new livery!"
"LH needs a new livery!"
"What is your favorite airport?"
"What is your least favorite airport?"
"L1011's are neato"

blah blah..

Seriously.. I don't understand the obsession with liveries, L1011's, and AA or UA's demise.

The way a I see it, if AA titled themself as American Airlines (49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited), went bankrupt, and flew a fleet of L1011's with liveries from every respective airline, 100's of people wouldn't know what to do on airliners.net anymore.

[Edited 2003-08-24 23:40:31]
 
AIR757200
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:40 am


Isn't that the truth Milemaster! I'm done with this B.S. on this thread.
 
capt078
Posts: 415
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:03 am

Tekelbery: thank you for clearing that up. i would say that calling them lies is pushing it, but i too believe they are unsubstantiated. it seems to me this guy has a little too much youthful exuberance. i am immediately apprehensive whenever someone starts a thread with "i have a very reliable source who says". that's just heresay and how rumors get started.

Bobs89irocz:

yeah, why don't you get those maintenance records. when you get them, let us know, we'll send you our email addresses and you can send us copies. i have some contacts at the ntsb, i'll forward what you give me. then you can sleep at night knowing you saved lives and cleaned up american's maintenance problems.

i don't have a problem with your inquiry about an aa thrust reverser at cvg. what i do have a problem with is your automatic cynister reaction, suggesting aa has nefarious maintenance habits. did it ever occur to you that this particular part might be there for a legitimate reason? for instance, perhaps aa is trying to raise cash by selling superfluous parts, and delta picked up a good part at a good price but hasn't painted it yet.

regarding fixing only what is written up, that is standard practice. outside of scheduled checks, maintenance personal only respond to noted discrepancies. what do you think, that maintenance people assigned to fix a tire are going to scan the entire airplane inch by inch to fix every problem? airlines maintain MELs (minimum equipment lists). as long as the airplane has the required equipment to fly safely, minor and cosmetic repairs can wait.

lastly, rather than get childish and defensive, how about substantiating your original comments. you claim, "all i have stated is FACT..." this is not true. in one of your rants, you talked about mechanics falling asleep half way through their shifts. were you there for that? if not, it's heresay, and not necessarily true. the only two things worth commenting about were the thrust reverser and reading lights. well, AIR757200, TokyoNarita, and i have all given logical and legitimate possibilities as to why those situations exist. i do not think anyone doubts your interest in this matter, and certainly everyone appreciates that, but all of your above comments appear to be nothing more than naive conjecture. rule of thumb, unless you have absolute certainty about something, do not write as if you do. there is nothing wrong with modestly asking a question.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:10 am

Tekelberry:

Just wanted to clarify your point on your comment about "debt=bankruptcy". From a financial accounting standpoint, all companies, profitable or not, have debt. Also, it doesn't matter if they're in Ch. 11 or not. My company (not an airline) has $1.2b in debt, but it's mostly fixed debt made up of mortgage notes, revolving line of credit, and private placements. Many other companies are similar in this regard. Lenders/stockholders look at a company's debt and management's ability to manage it and compliance with certain requirements set in place. More focus is placed on debt compliance and debt management for companies that are in Ch. 11, as the risk is much higher. Certain debt ratios against their assets will determine what interest rates a company will pay on their debt. Complicated stuff.

Milemaster: LOL!!!  Smile Well put....

Bobs89irocz: I wouldn't be publishing logbook activity on a website like this...you could not only get yourself in trouble or fired, but possibly those who work for you. Chances are someone from Sr. management at AA might be looking at this website. You never know....
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
capt078
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:20 am

yeah, what he (StevenUhl777) said!  Smile
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:20 am

StevenUhl777,

You're right, I should have been clearer on that. I guess what I meant to say is that as soon as a company can't pay their bills, that equates to bankruptcy.

So far, AA CAN pay their bills and they aren't even in the red. As has been stated by me numerous times, AA has $2.4 billion in bank and short term investments.
 
AA777MIA
Posts: 671
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:06 am

Arpey is not an ex TWA er, he has been with AA the whole time, I believe he actually started in the industry throwing bags for DELTA years ago.. and came to AA...
 
Flaps
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 8:08 am

I dont know how many of you responders actually work for one of the majors but as someone who does I will add my two cents. The original posters remarks while not substantiated in his post are accurate reflections of the current cultures and atmospheres at many majors, mine included. For a variety of reasons, some controllable by the carriers and some not, morale in a word SUCKS. The farther you are down the chain from the executive suite the more you see and the worse the morale as a result. Many employees fear for their jobs constantly and will not commit enough details to substantiate their statements as a result of that fear.

Conditions are the worst for the front line folks that have to deal with the customers face to face. There are still a good many front line folks that want desperately to provide a quality product and service and take pride in their work. These people get it in both ends. They face insufficient resources provided by the company and then have to face the wrath of the customer when things go wrong. Very few people from outside the majors (and some minors as well) realize just how much effort is expended by frontline people to stretch those resources and hide the behind the scenes issues from their customers. These people realize that the customer pays the bills.

In this era of challenging financial times so many of the major decision making positions are filled by financial and engineering people that the customer is nearly lost in the process. These people are not ill meaning by any means. It is just that training in their specializations generally does not include customer service or human resources/relationship skills. They look at the bottom line and all they see is the positive or negative number. What they dont see is the corners that were cut or the extra effort or risks taken by frontline employees and managers to make things happen. When a cut is made and the number comes out positive the inevitable result is more cuts. Eventually things can only be stretched so far and the system begins breaking down. We are seeing signs of this now in many operations. Unfortunately the people closest to the problem are too often left out of the loop and those with the least ability to see the issue make the decisions. I believe that one of the above posters in fact touched on this very subject.
 
capt078
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Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 9:13 am

Flaps: at least with your post, you are discussing morale and your own experiences. i think many of the above posts (including my own) are a reaction to unfounded speculation, particularly that which suggests a tremendous disregard for safety.
 
Flaps
Posts: 1185
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:15 am

Cap078,

I agree with you that none of us is foolish enough to cut corners to the point of risking true safety. One the points raised by the poster though is a perfect example of what is wrong with many parts of our industry in that in an effort to save pennies we are spending dollars. The tire issue is a good example. Say the MD80 tire in question is normally good for 150 landings. The plane comes in for a B check at a major facility (in this case Tul or DFW) with 110 landings on the tire but that tire is showing exceptional wear. In days past we would take advantage of the fact that the plane was already out of service at a major facility and swap out the tire early using the equipment and manpower already at hand. No big deal other than we didnt get our full $500 worth of life out of that particular tire.

Today we see the same situation but we are bound and determined to get our full $500 worth of use out of that tire so we dont change it. Lo and behold five days later the tire blows on landing at an out station (say Tucson) at 120 landings. There arent any other MD80 operators at TUL (even if there were we would probably now have to pay $1000 for that same tire) so now we have an AOG and a planeload of frustrated passengers waiting for mechanics and parts to be flown in at a cost of god knows what. To add insult to injury this turns out to be the same plane with 38 bad reading lights on a night flight.

You just lost half of the passengers on that flight to a competitor, some of them permanently. In this example we spent probably close to $7500 - $10000 dollars in lost revenue and repair costs plus the loyalty of an unknown number of customers just so we could try to get another $100 worth of use out of a tire. We see this type of penny wise pound foolishness on a daily basis while our wages, job security and working conditions continue to deteriorate on a daily basis. Its no wonder so many large carriers are going in the tank. The so called LCC's have more than just a cost advantage. Their smaller size generally leads to more effective communication, better resukts and a sense of satisfaction in doing things right.

The big guys are in serious trouble. AA, UA, US and FM (surprise) are prime examples of this philosophy. The FM case is a little different in that the airline ops are still pretty good but the suppport structure is falling apart.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 11:19 am

Flaps what you say is dead on the money! The LCC's have the open communication and support of management to voice there opinions and suggestions. The problems you point out are common with most companies that grow to big and lose touch with the workers.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
capt078
Posts: 415
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 9:52 am

RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 1:34 pm

Flaps: i understand and appreciate your comments, and certainly will take them into consideration. however, my response would be that if the tire is rated for 150 landings, then i would expect 150 landings. if every tire is replaced at 110 vs. 150 landings, then the airline is realizing a 27% decrease in utility of just that particular part. and if the tire is prone to explode prematurely, i would see to it that my airline got tires from a different supplier (if possible), argue for a cheaper price, or act in a manner to recoop those losses.

now my argument is logical from a theoretical perspective, but i do understand that reality plays a significant role in this matter. while i am not a maintenance person, i do own my own 172 and do a bit of preventative maintenance. furthermore, i lease back my plane to a flight school. thus, when it goes through its 100 hour checks, i do try to take care of any small things that will need attention in the near future.
 
cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:28 pm

Flaps,

In your experience, do Airlines tend to inflate the value of savings on non-labor expenses, and yet squander money spent on labor? I have seen this in other industries. For example, the all-to-frequent practice of hiring people for entry level positions without checking their references, history, etc. One would not buy a $10,000 used car for a business without having it inspected, etc. Yet people will spend three or four times as much a year for a person, who also is entrusted with critical information, without even making a few phone calls. Or you have several people trying to fix a computer on thier own for several hours, each being paid 10-20 bucks an hour, when a technician at a computer store down the road could do it in 5 minutes for $10. The above examples might not apply to the airlines, but I can see how they might do similar things....

One of the differences between Southwest and some other airlines is how they use labor. They will make sure that flights and other activities are not scheduled as to make people idle unnecesarily. If they can save mechanics labor with a computerized parts tracking system, they go ahead and do it if the cost of the labor saved is worth it. When deciding whether to implement anything that would make operations or customer service more complicated (like a new fare class or fleet subtype) they consider the innevitable additional labor cost and decide if it is worth it. My guess is the majors do not see many of the additional labor expenses that their convoluted systems have imposed on them. Southwest has found out that you can save on labor without neccesarily having to pay people less.
 
dc10hound
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:31 am

Bobs89irocz:

In regards to your initial post, let me respond to one of the subjects you brought up.

In the AAL General Procedures Manual (Section 07-02, to be exact) there is six pages of criteria for tire and wheel replacement. I won’t bother posting them here (Might be proprietary info).

This criterion is specific, and is a hard limit and will be complied with. There is no room for how bad a day you’re having, how tired you are or what you think about your company.

Your source(s) are probably a somewhat disgruntled employee(s) that are upset with the company (As well they should be, but that’s whole different subject).

There is a huge difference between being upset with your job and performing the duty that you were trained for. The duty that you are morally and legally bound to perform with highest degree of accuracy and integrity that is humanly possible.

I know of no aviation professional, including management, at AAL who will intentionally “break the rules”.

Safety is the primary concern at AAL, and will not be compromised.


"Eagles soar. But weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.."
 
tekelberry
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:35 am

Your source(s) are probably a somewhat disgruntled employee(s) that are upset with the company (As well they should be, but that’s whole different subject).

You let the cat out of the bag here.

AA employees should be thanking god that they still have a job with the company. For a while, it looked like AA was heading straight for bankruptcy. They avoided that and possibly saved thousands of jobs.
 
dc10hound
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 3:19 am

AA employees should be thanking god that they still have a job with the company.

Actually, I think they should thank me for still being here...

 Big grin
"Eagles soar. But weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.."
 
AA777MIA
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:59 pm

AMEN DC10 HOUND!

Yes, I have been with AA for close to 14years now, and I continue to love the company and the job that I have... However, I have seen the upper managment of this company PISS money away, and it makes my blood boil! When the employees of this company have to take steep pay cuts and upper management enjoy their perks, it really hurts! I do not want to turn this into a forum of pity me, however I will tell you that it is this serious, I can no longer afford to keepy my condo! I have to sell it! This is really SCREWED up! I certainly hope that Don Carty enjoys his millions and chokes on every freaking dime he made... because he has hurt every employee at this company, even the those TWAers who DO NOT deserve losing their jobs!
 
kevi747
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:14 pm

"Actually, I think they should thank me for still being here..."

Dc10Hound, you go boy!!!!!!! They need to be thanking ALL of us!! AA management only came up with ONE cost-saving idea: Extort concessions from labor.

All of the other ideas came from F/A's, agents, pilots, mechanics, and all the other employees who make this company great. AA is much more than 40 fools in DFW who think they have all the answers.
"Reality has a well-known liberal bias." --Stephen Colbert
 
brons2
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:30 pm

Tekelberry, your assertion that AA does not have debt is patently false. AA has tons of debt, just look at their financials at amr.com. They do have cash on hand as well, as you say, but to say they don't have debt is ignorant. They are leveraged to the hilt.

It doesn't mean they are insolvent though. You said debt=bankruptcy, the correct comparison would be financial insolvency=bankruptcy. Hopefully the financial picture is improving for AA.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
tekelberry
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:05 pm

Actually, I think they should thank me for still being here...

Wow, you are quite arrogant. You should be thanking them for still employing you. If you don't wish to do that, I wish you good luck into finding a job at another airline.
 
milemaster
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 4:43 pm

Actually, I think they should thank me for still being here...

Wow, you are quite arrogant. You should be thanking them for still employing you. If you don't wish to do that, I wish you good luck into finding a job at another airline.

Word to that.

Half the people I know have been unemployed 6, 10, 14 months here in the DFW area...

AA still has plenty of people they could still axe... time to clam up and be thankful to be working rather than bitch.
 
Bobs89irocz
Topic Author
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:04 pm

"Where's the facts guys?!?! Or are we just assuming from our reliable sources? I worked for AA and I have my "reliable sources" but I wouldn't and hardly comment what they are on this site."


LOL...i cant believe the stupid stuff i started on this post. I can get maintnance records then the plane comes back in for regular maintnance or has a problem. I just have to have alittle time, no big deal.

Tekelberry- OMG dude, you have no idea who i am or my sources are, but i will tell you i have been around AA ALL my life, the people i know in the that airline dont tell me lies. What would be the point? What would be the point of me coming on this sit to tell you guys about AA's problems if i didnt think you guys where interested? I see a few people are and thats great, some people had some intelligent things to say. YOU havent had one single thing to say or said anything to back up your statements. AA is in dept, and hurting very badly. Why dont you go take a run through the terminal and talk to an AA pilot about the airline......or better yet, talk to a mechanic if you run into one.


"1) I have never heard of a problem with AA maintenance. What in the hell are you talking about?"

I know this was back in 1979 but it proves you wrong....how about flight 191? DC-10 out of ORD......my source knew a few of the guys on the crew that was part of that engine change which lead to the crash of a good airplane and 279 people.....That was a maintnance problem..

PLEASE, if you dont believe anything i have said then that is A-OK with me, i dont care AT ALL, but please dont come in this post and bash or tell me im a liar. How the heck would you know. Just read what i have to say and if you dont believe it that cool, go read another post. I do realize im new to this board but im not new to aviation or the airline operations.

I will make a big deal out of the 38 reading lights not working because the lazy mechanic on duty that was sleeping on the airplane instead of fixing it pisses me off.....it is there JOB to fix these things not sleep. LOL AA doesnt have a maintnance problem.....where is YOUR source that they dont?



 
Bobs89irocz
Topic Author
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:24 pm

Dc10hound- your absolutely correct, the employees i have talked to are VERY upseat and probably make things out worse then they are. However its not just an over exageration either. I dont know what you do for AA but its obiouse you know what im talking about and can relate to the people i know.

AA777MIA- Carty----urg...i cant agree with your statement more, what a heartless ******* *******. There went my college money in his bank account. I guess you can say im alittle upset. All my dreams where gone (for about 4-8 years) if i didnt save my money when i made it.

I do give A LOT of respect out to the AA employees, i know your getting screwed big time i see it everyday. I feel really really bad for you and your familys, i dont mean to bash the airlines people who work hard and have been down a long road to get where they are (pilots, f/a, mechanics) but they need someone that can run this company like Robert Crandell did. I love AA and will probably never fly another airline other then them unless im employed by them but i just wanted to make it a point that they arent the airline some people make them out to be and the need a lot of help.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 9:21 pm

I think Bob is sucking too many exhaust fumes from his 89 IrocZ. Before you bring out this treasure trove of evidence, you might wanna delete you full name from your profile. Remember Bob that whistle-blowing without proper evidence can get you thrown out of the industry and you'll never set foot on an airplane for the rest of your working career, assuming that you actaully work for an airline. I don't think you do.
Made from jets!
 
capt078
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:57 pm

"I know this was back in 1979 but it proves you wrong....how about flight 191? DC-10 out of ORD......my source knew a few of the guys on the crew that was part of that engine change which lead to the crash of a good airplane and 279 people.....That was a maintnance problem.."

that was not a perfectly good airplane. there was previous damage that the ntsb acknowledges contributed to the problem. most importantly, the ntsb claimed that maintenance procedures developed BY american airlines contributed, not the haphazard work of mechanics. this accident lead to the grounding of the DC-10 and the issuance of several airworthiness directives for all DC-10s. to suggest that the chicago DC-10 accident was the fault of american airlines mechanics is misleading, and certainly your point has not been made.

i stand by my claim that you are too eager to curry favor on this website. you have yet to substantiate any of your outlandish comments. i will back my comments up by directing anyone interested to www.ntsb.gov. and by the way, "the people i know in that airline dont tell me lies"; HOW DO YOU KNOW?
 
dc10hound
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Tue Aug 26, 2003 11:46 pm

Wow, you are quite arrogant. You should be thanking them for still employing you. If you don't wish to do that, I wish you good luck into finding a job at another airline.

Arrogant? No.Sarcastic? Yes.

 Big grin

(But I am a "sky nAAzi", after all)

"Eagles soar. But weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.."
 
AA717driver
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RE: As Time Goes By: Many 767s Bound For Scrapping

Wed Aug 27, 2003 12:43 am

Being able to make an apples to oranges comparison, I see no difference in maintenance between TWA and AA--and believe me, that's a compliment to AA.

Sure, I've heard the stories about bad AA mx, but until I see them myself, I have no qualms about taking an airplane signed off by the mechs. in DFW(or any other station...). When you pull up to the gate, there's usually a mechanic waiting to see if things are ok. When you call, they show up promptly. I guess that means management can furlough a few hundred more Big grin.

Some of the operational proceedures suck(every airline has some that could be changed). On taxi out, the Capt. is talking non-stop, briefing all this s**t that should have been talked about before you reach the cockpit. They even brief the departure airport elevation...DUH!

But, they probably have been doing these things since C. R. Smith and the DC-3's were on the property. Lord knows TWA had some stuff that was done because "we've always done it that way". TWA's operation became extremely effecient because we had to. AA hasn't had to take those measures--yet.

Until the management loses the "not invented here" syndrome, they will continue to piss away money like a drunken sailor. It may not kill AA but it certainly won't help. Kind of like leaving the gear down when you lose an engine on takeoff Big grin.TC
FL450, M.85
 
AAR90
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RE: Is AA Really Going To Make It?

Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:30 am

On taxi out, the Capt. is talking non-stop, briefing all this s**t that should have been talked about before you reach the cockpit. They even brief the departure airport elevation...DUH!

My T/O brief averages 15 seconds. Any more than that and I'm gonna forget what I was trying to say--so how can I expect the FO to remember it all?  Nuts

But, they probably have been doing these things since C. R. Smith and the DC-3's were on the property.

Nope, about 3 years old. Figured it was the lawyers... again.  Pissed

Until the management loses the "not invented here" syndrome...

Ain't that the truth! Crandall's success (and fame) came not from true innovation, but rather from watching everything and everybody else (including non-aviation companies), his willingness to trying new things and then applying what worked company-wide faster and better than any of AA's competitors. Hopefully Arpey has a similar mindset (chief pilot left pretty quick, eh?!).  Big thumbs up
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!

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