SInGAPORE_AIR
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Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:03 am

Boeing wants to offer Air India and Indian Airlines a sell and buyback offer where Boeing Aircraft Trading would for example buy back Old 737s from AI and get AI to order some new 777s and 737NGs.

More information at the Hindu website
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:16 pm

AI does not have 737's. They do have 3 747-200's and 2 747-300 COmbi's left over. They could be replaced with the 747-400's.

-Roy
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:40 pm

Finally Boeing is getting aggressive!!!!! I doubt that the order will be overturned though. What I am happy to see though is Boeing getting serious about trying to win some orders. Remeber you make aircraft not web connexions!
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:48 pm

CX747: didn't Boeing also take A343's back quite some time ago?

Anyway, hopefully Boeing will win some market back till a 50/50 proportion with Airbus.

It would be nice to see some more B737's flying around, didn't see much of them in LHR...
 
CX747
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:57 pm

I find it interesting that you didn't see alot of 737s in LHR! There are definately plenty of them out there.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Sabena 690
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:11 pm

In comparision with a year ago I mean. Almost all BA short + medium haul flights are A319 + A320 now, B737's are, except a few, gone to LGW.
 
behramjee
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:18 pm

Im glad to see that BOEING is getting back to its aggressive marketing tactics that it has used with SQ in the past.

Yes B 742s and 743s are ideally replaceable by B 744s but Air India desperately needs an aircraft in between the size of their 200 seater A 310-300 and 400 seater B 744 so the 300 seater B 772ER is the perfect choice.

Since 17 long haul aircraft are going to be ordered why not order 10 B 777-200ERs, 5 Boeing 747-400s and 2 Boeing 747-400 Combis (to replace the 2 B 743 Combis). As it is the B 747s are going to be used on the USA-FRA routes and that is where currently AI is expanding rapidly.

Yes nonstop 17 hr flights to USA by AIR INDIA should not go through as it wont work for them. I dread to imagine the state of their toilets after a 17 hr flight!!! heheheh  Big grin

With the new B 777s, AI can then restart MANCHESTER services and expand in China and Australia (SYD-MEL) especially!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:21 am



Im glad to see that BOEING is getting back to its aggressive marketing tactics that it has used with SQ in the past.

Desperate would be more appropriate dont u think?


Since 17 long haul aircraft are going to be ordered why not order 10 B 777-200ERs, 5 Boeing 747-400s and 2 Boeing 747-400 Combis (to replace the 2 B 743 Combis).

There u show your bias again! Nothing wrong with that, if it were based on solid reasoning, which it clearly isnt.

Why Boeing? Why not 8 A330-200's, 4 A330-300's and 5 A340-300's? 'cos Behramjee loves the trash churned out at Seattle?

The Boeing 777 is no doubt a very fine aircraft, but it clearly doesnt fit in the AI mission requirements. I have said it before and I say it again:The 777-200ER is a downright bad choice for Air India, and below I shall lay out my case as to why I say so.

Whatever the professional whiners living to the west of the Atlantic may say,Airbus has a larger market share today because it is doing something right. I am sure the Boeing 777-200ER would look super sexy in Air India's "Palace in the Sky" livery. But thats not what an Airline should be looking for in an aircraft.

Ultimately the selection of aircraft should be based on technical issues and also National interest. Air India needs aircraft that can handle both ultra-long hauls and short haul feeders. Can the 777-200ER do BOTH kind of routes BETTER than say a combination of 330/340's? THAT is the question. Initial Cost of Acquisition as well as operational costs clearly show Airbus to be the winner. The A330-200 with 290 seats 2-class, can serve both regional operations, domestic feeds as well as medium hauls non-stop to Europe. The A330-300 with 335 seats 2-class can handle similar routes but with additional capacity. The A340-300 with 260-280 seats 3-class can handle the ultra-long hauls. All these with the same set of crew! The airframes of the 3 aircraft have 95% commonality, which translates into huge savings on inventory! AI can thus operate different set of aircraft fulfilling specific roles, while at the same time retaining commonality in key areas: A HUGE advantage. The A330 and the A340 are designed for specific roles. The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well? Or rather, i should ask if the 777 would be MORE economical than the A330-200/300 on a typical route like (say) BOM-MAA-SIN or indeed AMD-BOM-JNB.

Choosing the Boeing 777 would mean using the same airframe for essentially 2 completely different roles: Ultra-Long Haul and Short-Medium Hauls. The Airbus option would mean using different aircraft for different missions, as it should be, but yet retaining and even enhancing commonality benefits. The advantage here comes not just from better technology, but better application of Technology.

Since IC has already plumped for Airbus for its own 43 aircraft order of 120-180 seat aircraft, a combined AI/IC order would help our Govt to negotiate a sweetheart deal from Airbus. IF AI decides to also go in for 12-18 short haul 150-180 seat narrowbodies for the Gulf routes at a later date, then the A32X family again makes sense because again there would be crew commonality benefits between the A32X and the A330/340. Also if AI selects the CFM56 engines for the A340, it would result in substantial savings on the
engineering front as well, since IC is opting for CFM56 engines for their newer A32X’s! The 340-300 would also give AI the capability to scale up later to the larger, more capable A340-500 and -600 as well, and possibly even the A380 at a later stage! Sooner or later, a country the size of India is going to grow to need the 600 seat superjumbo! With Airbus you get flexibility. But with Boeing you cant do that!

And what can Boeing offer at this stage in answer to this? An aircraft that is suitable for long hauls but is questionable for use on shorter hauls? And what does AI then do when it needs a 150-180 seat aircraft? 737-800’s? With Zero Commonality benefits with anything else that AI operates?

And yet some children here suggest that the 777 makes sense because it "would look so sexy"? I mean PUHLEEZE!

-Roy

 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:34 am

There u show your bias again! Nothing wrong with that, if it were based on solid reasoning, which it clearly isnt.

Why Boeing? Why not 8 A330-200's, 4 A330-300's and 5 A340-300's? 'cos Behramjee loves the trash churned out at Seattle?


You just discredited yourself, congratulations.

And yet some children here suggest that the 777 makes sense because it "would look so sexy"? I mean PUHLEEZE!

And then you have the nerve to say this?

PUHLEEZE!!!!!  Yeah sure
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:35 am

There is no better commonality than using a single type for multiple missions.

If you mix 330/340 you have two types of engines to maintain. Further I think a 343 would face load restrictions because of density altitude.
 
MITaero
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:46 am

>Sooner or later, a country the size of India is going to grow to need the 600 seat superjumbo! With Airbus you get flexibility. But with Boeing you cant do that!

I don't think Boeing would have too much trouble coming out with an A380 competitor "sooner or later."
 
Vimanav
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:06 am

While I would tend to agree with Roy's views to some degree, I would disagree on selecting the A330-300 and the A340-300. The former has not exactly been a hot-seller compared to the A330-200 whose range and payload capabilities match AI's requirements more. A logical growth from that would be the A340-500 to cater to AI's long-haul and ultra-long haul sectors. Replacing the B747-400s (my heart breaks to think of this, even though my brain thinks differently) should be the A380.

The A330-200s could do the Gulf / Middle East routes besides the Far East and maybe even ROM/GVA etc.
The A340-500s could do SYD/PER/JFK/CHI/LAX/YYZ/YVR non-stops from India
The A380s could do India LHR JFK or CHI.

Leave IC to do serve the remaining destinations.

Besides the advantages mentioned by Roy, I state once again a point I raised on one of the other threads - not putting all eggs in the US basket and exposing the carrier to the effect of any sanctions imposed at a later date on transfer of technology or sale of spares.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:18 am

How would buying Boeing be putting all of your eggs into one basket?

I recall reading a few months ago that the French Trade Minister said that Airbus would outsource in India IF all Air India and Indian Airlines orders went to Airbus. One or the other was not enough.

That sounds more like putting all of your eggs into a single basket.

 
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yyz717
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:28 am

The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well?

ANA uses the 772/773 on very shorthaul domestic routes as well as long haul routes. A 772/773 combination can compete very effectively against a 332/343/345 combination. While the Airbus products can be more finetuned to the specific market, you will have more engine types and hence cost/mx with the Airbus mix potentially.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:58 am

For one thing, let's remember that this order it intended to be for 10 firm and 7 options, not all 17 firm orders. Therefore, the likelihood that this order will be spread around among various models (744, 744M, 772ER/A332,A333,A343) is improbable. Besides, AI has publically stated that the aircraft in question are 772ER or A343 for the 300-seat long-haul, and 738 or A320 for short-haul.


"Ultimately the selection of aircraft should be based on technical issues. . ."

This is the only thing you said that's true. It's also the reason your other points are bulls***.


"Initial Cost of Acquisition as well as operational costs clearly show Airbus to be the winner."

Are you suggesting that you have access to highly confidential purchase contracts and operational statistics from a majority of the world's airlines, specifically those that operate the A330/340 series and/or the 777 series?

Didn't think so.


"The A330-200 with 290 seats 2-class, can serve both regional operations, domestic feeds as well as medium hauls non-stop to Europe. The A330-300 with 335 seats 2-class can handle similar routes but with additional capacity. The A340-300 with 260-280 seats 3-class can handle the ultra-long hauls."

It's very amusing that you believe having a very small fleet of three different types with cockpit commonality is an advantage. Ever heard of 'operational flexibility'? Or how about the case when one aircraft is down for maintanence and you have to replace it? Ever heard of airlines like Southwest, JetBlue, Ryanair, or easyJet? Together these are the most profitable operations flying right now. Know one of the keys to their success? Oops, sorry, you probably don't since you stated the above is an advantage. But you might have guessed by now - that's right, its 'operational flexibility.' Having a standardized fleet (not just the same family, but the same model) greatly simplifies fleet/route planning. It also allows you to quickly substitute one aircraft for another that might go down for maintanence. It also means you don't have to buy as many aircraft, since 1 can do it all for you - a good example is DL, who fly a 777 from Orlando to Atlanta (short-hop), then turn that same aircraft around and fly transatlantic with it. UA does the same thing (DEN-SEA-NRT). It's called (everybody now) 'flexibility.'


"The A330 and the A340 are designed for specific roles."

Yes, which is precisely their problem. It is also why the A330-200, a truly great aircraft, is the A330/340's best selling model hands-down: because it can do a variety of roles.


"The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well?"

No, the 777 is designed to be a medium-to-long haul aircraft, with only the new LR series designed for the ultra-long haul.


"yet retaining and even enhancing commonality benefits."

Could you please tell me how it is physically possible to chose multiple aircraft over a single one and enhance commonality? This is also, of course, completely ignoring the fact AI would also be buying multiple engines for a A332/A333/A343 fleet, vs. a single engine for a 777-200ER fleet.


"And yet some children here suggest that the 777 makes sense because it "would look so sexy"?"


Roy, so far the only person being a child on this thread is yourself. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the airline industry and its associated operations, then come back. Airbus aircraft have a lot of strong selling points. Unfortunately, you utterly failed to mention any of them in your biased rant against those who suggested the 777 is a better aircraft for AI.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Vimanav
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:58 am

That sounds more like putting all of your eggs into a single basket.

I mentioned that in another thread a short while ago that in the event of any serious disagreements with the USA then they could impose sanctions on India whereby aviation spares could come under sanctioned items and as a result India's airlines could face a potentially Iraqi Airways, Libyan Arab Airlines like situation.

I'm not saying it has to happen but its better to be wary and pre-empt such situations as far as possible. With Airbus the chances of the EU boycotting India over things like testing a nuke are less compared to USA. But as I said this was discussed yesterday on another thread and would prefer not to enter into another argument over this.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:00 am

Other short to medium haul 777 operators that I know of in addition to ANA: JAL, pre-merger JAS, Thai, Emirates, United, Singapore, and Cathay Pacific.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:07 am

N79969,

You can add American and Delta (albeit not that many, maybe one or two) to that list, and Continental I think possibly too.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
kl911
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:14 am


Hamlet69 , You are a 21 year old student, never worked for an Airline company and are a very pro Boeing extremist.

This all according to your profile/answers. Why should we take you serious?
 
L.1011
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:19 am

Indianguy, I'll also say that you are acting childish. You basically made up stuff to make Airbus "the clear winner" Talk about BS. This must hurt coming from someone younger than you. Why order the Airbus family with different engines when you can get a combination of 777 varients or your routes.
Instead of A333, 772A
Instead of A343, 772ER
Instead of A345, 772LR
Instead of A346, 773ER
Instead of 3 different engine families, one. I would suggest Air-India go with GE for their 777s because they can use various GE90s for the whole fleet.
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:19 am

KL911,

As opposed to taking Indianguy seriously? If there is an extremist on this website, I think the consensus view across the board would be Indianguy.

Hamlet 69,

You're a pro-Boeing "extremist"? Have you been picketing in Tolouse or vandalizing overnighting Airbus planes?
 
kl911
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:30 am


Hamlet69 , You are a 21 year old student, never worked for an Airline company and are a very pro Boeing extremist.

This all according to your profile/answers. Why should we take you serious?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:50 am

KL911,

Wow. I must say, I am almost speechless. . .

Quite frankly, I don't care if you take me seriously or not. The question is, can you refute what I stated? As to being a "very pro Boeing extremist" (your words, not mine), I'll leave that for others on this forum to decide. I've contributed to this forum for the past three and a half years and have made friends with many on both sides of the A/B argument. I don't need to explain myself any further.

. . . I did say I was almost speechless.


N79969,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy LOL!! Yeah, it's more of a hobby, really. You know, weekend type of thing. . .  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Oh, and I definitly describe myself as an "extremist." It's the microscopic print in my hobbies profile. Most people totally miss it. I'm glad KL911 caught it.  Wink/being sarcastic

Regards,

Hamlet69


BTW - I don't believe I have ever stated that I had never worked in the airline industry. Also, I'm 25, not 21.  Innocent
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:53 am

Hamlet quite clearly hit it on the nose, 1model/1engine for a variety of jobs... versus multiple for the multiple airbuses.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:00 am

KL911:

If your profile correctly describes who you truly are, namely in the business of aviation marketing and sales, then you should know Hamlet69's reasonings are far more logical and rational than Indianguy's. Ultimately, a person's credibility is established based on what the person says. The title, or lack thereof, shouldn't be the criterion to determine whether you want to take the person seriously or not.
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:15 am

Buying planes back from AI would hurt Boeing more than when the order goes to Airbus. Look what happened with SQ, Boeing lost credibility, it's shares dropped. SQ still ordered the A345, the A380 and no additional Boeings. A manufacturer should win orders with a good product and a good price !
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
N79969
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:20 am

Sjoerd,

Actually Boeing took those SQ 340s as part of a massive B777 order. They did not just buy 340. Perhaps you meant something different.

I don't think Boeing will have to pay much for those AI planes. I would bet older 747-200s will almost certainly go for less than $10 million. AI may get a small premium above market and save the hassle of trying to sell airplanes in a really soft market.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:22 am

SQ still ordered the A345, the A380 and no additional Boeings. A manufacturer should win orders with a good product and a good price !

Something of an anecdotal conclusion, considering that Boeing had no alternative launched to either of these models at the time SQ ordered.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:31 am

N79969,

I know, all I am saying is that a product should be bought because it's good and it's price is good. All the extra's make Boeing look desperate, it would be better to just lower their price, you might do the same concessions but this remains more confidental not public.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:03 am

Sjoerd,

I can understand your point, but buy-backs have virtually become an industry standard. In fact, both Boeing and Airbus were doing it before the famous SQ A340 buy-back. The only thing that made this headline news was the relative newness of the SQ A340 fleet, and the fact Boeing was buying Airbus aircraft, including 2 directly off the production line.

And don't think Airbus is not doing this, either. The latest is the easyJet order for 120 A319s. Airbus is buying back a couple dozen EZ 737-300s at guaranteed prices, regardless of market rates. This does not truly hurt the manufacturer doing the buy-back, as long as it is possible to resell the aircraft. In that sense, this AI deal will probably be more lucrative for Boeing than the SQ deal, in that there is more of a market for used 747 Classics to convert into freighters than there was (and is) for A340-300s.

Finally, consider this: When you state that ". . .it would be better to just lower their price. . .," is that not what Boeing is doing? What's the difference between lowering the price on a new 777-200ER by, say, $10 million, or agreeing to pay AI $10 million for each 747 Classic? You not only arrive at the same balance, but you've now helped out a customer in retiring an aging fleet. It's good customer relations.


"SQ still ordered the A345. . ."

This is anachronistic. SQ ordered the A340-500 (vs. the then 777-200X) before excercising their 1995 option to buy 777s to replace their A340-300 fleet. You are right, however, in stating that they ordered the A380 afterward. It should also be pointed out, as well, that the original buy-back saw Boeing buying 17 A340-300s for SQ order for 10 777-200ERs. Since then, SQ has converted options on 6 more -200ERs. Not exactly a disaster for Boeing.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For N

Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:17 am

Indianguy: Choosing the Boeing 777 would mean using the same airframe for essentially 2 completely different roles: Ultra-Long Haul and Short-Medium Hauls. The Airbus option would mean using different aircraft for different missions, as it should be, but yet retaining and even enhancing commonality benefits.

Different aircraft? When Airbus developed the original 330/340 tandem, they stated that the airframes were the same; in particular, there was one wing with hard points to take either 2 or 4 engines. Each manufacturer is offering one airframe with a (non-independent) choice of lengths, engines, and fuel tankage.

Hamlet69: a good example is DL, who fly a 777 from Orlando to Atlanta (short-hop), then turn that same aircraft around and fly transatlantic with it.

It can make sense to employ a capital-intensive long-haul aircraft on a short trip rather than sit on the ground producing no revenue while waiting for the right time of day for its next long haul. Triangular routes with one short leg can also make sense: I have been on an L-1011 flying a triangular route SFO-OGG-HNL-SFO, and a 747 flying LGW-HRE-LUN-LGW. But nobody would buy those big long-range planes to principally fly between Maui and Honolulu, or Harare - Lusaka, or Orlando - Atlanta.
 
Sjoerd
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:30 pm

Hamlet69, ConcordeBoy,

SQ still ordered the A345, the A380 and no additional Boeings.

I know there was no competition from Boeing for these aircraft, that was my point, I wanted to say that Airbus was/is ahead of Boeing offering a very long range and a very large aircraft. Will Boeing also buy back SQs A345s when it's B777LR is ready ?

Regards,

Sjoerd
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:29 pm

Well Im not trying to fuel the fire, all I am saying is to me yes I admit that Boeing is slightly behind, and they ussually cost more to buy, but remember, first of all good things take time, and second of all you get what you pay for, the less you pay the less you get.

CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:35 pm

Sjoerd,

I don't mean to single you out in particular, you are just the latest to restate a long-running myth on this forum: that Boeing is finding itself in a new position in its battle with Airbus, and that's a position of not being first to market.

In fact, this has been the case for most of Boeing's history. Indeed, of all the aircraft I can think of, only the 707 (and that is debatable) and the 747 were truly first to market aircraft. And in the case of the 747, it was a market of itself. The 737, 767, 777, etc., were all introduced after its respective competition. And all were tremendously successful against said competition. The truth of the matter is that, in a majority of circumstances in the aviation world, the first manufacturer to a certain market is often the one that fails in that market.

Now, that shouldn't mean Boeing should just sit back and do nothing. However, it also doesn't mean that Boeing is somehow in unfamiliar territory, or is in danger of being completely blown away.

Just some thoughts,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:07 pm


Boeing jet theory: Bigger, faster, better than Airbus

- By Shahid Faridi
New Delhi, Aug. 26: The battle for the Rs 10,000-crore order to supply aircraft to Air-India intensified with
Boeing launching a no-holds-barred attack on competitor Airbus, saying there are no takers for Airbus
planes and many of their "so-called" new generation A340-300s are parked across the world while every
single Boeing plane of the same category, B777-200ER, was flying.

This, Boeing senior vice-president Dr Dinesh Keskar said on Tuesday, was due to the "fact" that the
777s yielded far more revenue by flying faster and carrying more passengers and cargo, gave far more
comfort to passengers, wasted far less time in maintenance and had far higher resale value than its
competition, the Airbus A340-300.

Dr Keskar gave data to support his claim. He said "there can be a debate over subjective issues. But
here I am presenting hard data, which can not be contested."

Similarly, in the smaller aircraft category, Dr Keskar said Boeing’s B737s have "ruled the skies and
operators’ hearts for long." He said there was no comparison between Boeing’s 737-800 and Airbus’
A320-200, which are being evaluated by Air-India.

"One look at the sales figure will tell you the story. The 737s are the world’s best-selling airplanes of all
time. We have so far sold 5,260 737s. The 737s are the most advanced aircraft in its class.

It carries more passengers than Airbus’ A320-200, it has more seats but weighs less than the A320,
flies farther than the A320, burns less fuel per passenger than the A320, costs less to maintain, costs
less to operate, provides $0.8 million more profit per year and, therefore, is the right choice for Air-India,"
Dr Keskar said.

He admitted that Boeing planes cost "a little more" than Airbus planes, but added that "for a very small
incremental cost, you have huge revenue yields for long years."

Boeing and Airbus have been fierce business rivals But this is the first time that one company has
decided to rubbish the product of its rival. The battle has just begun.

Dr Keskar, while positioning his 777s and 737s for Air-India, also made a fresh offer to Indian Airlines
which has finalised its decision to buy 43 aircraft from Airbus.

Dr Keskar on Tuesday offered to buy all the old 737s of Indian Airlines, which have earned the epithet of
"flying coffins" due to their old age and frequent failures, if the airline agreed to purchase new 737s. He
also offered to revise the price it had earlier offered to Indian Airlines for the 737s
 
Shenzhen
Posts: 1664
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:11 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:20 pm

Sjoerd, you wrote...

"""I know, all I am saying is that a product should be bought because it's good and it's price is good. All the extra's make Boeing look desperate, it would be better to just lower their price, you might do the same concessions but this remains more confidential not public."""

Selling an old airplane isn't easy, especially if you are trying to get that same airplane on the FAA type register. I may be going out on a limb here, but I would bet that if they tried to sell the airplane themselves, they would need to go through a full "D" type check to zero the airframe, all the engines would need to be overhauled, and more then likely, most the components would need to be bench checked and new 8130 (or equivalent) forms issued.

It doesn't matter what shape the airplane is in, if the paperwork behind it doesn't stand up.

So, by purchasing the airplanes, Boeing could be eliminating future headaches.
 
N79969
Posts: 6605
Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:43 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:04 pm

Orders from Singapore are always highly contested because of its high profile and prestige. When Boeing and Airbus cut them deals, I don't think desperation is the driving force.

In the case of Air India, buying the carrier's old airplanes really is not a huge financial burden. I read at Speednews or another site that older, parked 767-200s are now selling for under $10 milion. I imagine the market for high-cycle 747 is even worse. Buying a carrier's old planes is the equivalent of a discount and saves the carrier the trouble of haggling on the open market for an ultimately low price. I agree with Shenzen.

"I know, all I am saying is that a product should be bought because it's good and it's price is good."

I don't disagree.

__

I like when Boeing takes the gloves off but I wonder how that pitch will be received. In my armchair view, their remarks about the 340-300 are right on. They are not being ordered that often and many are parked. But I think their remarks on the 738 v. A320-200 are just hype. That said, I hope Boeing cleans house.

[Edited 2003-08-28 15:07:39]
 
starrion
Posts: 972
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2003 1:19 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:14 am

This escalation of competition from comparing aircraft in a restrained and logical viewpoint doesn not seem like a wise move on Dr Keskar's part. I'm sure the language choice was made at the highest level but disaparaging a competitors product seems like a bad idea in this scenario. I personally dislike Airbus aircraft, I typically focus my travel on airlines that are all Boeing or MCD, but I don't like the tone in this statement. What is says is probably true, but a sizable amount of the a340's that are parked can also be traced to the demise or bankruptcy of their airlines re:Air Canada A345's ect. Just because foolish management, SARS and bad luck drove the airlines out of business doesn't make the aircraft less competitive. United has several 777's parked, but I think they are mostly 777-200's not ER's.

Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
dalecary
Posts: 834
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2000 10:28 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 7:33 am

I also believe the Boeing offer includes trade-ins on the 747 classic fleet. Additionally, it has been reported in the Indian press this week that Mr Keskar and the Boeing Indian office are packing up and heading back to Seattle(Chicago???).
We know that the joint AI/IC CEO favours Airbus products and I think Boeing may be getting a touch desperate here.

Dale.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4336
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:19 am

The B 777 can lay the smackdown on the A 340!

Air India better choose the BOEING 777-738 combo deal especially right now with the extra B 747 Classics buy back incentive being offered.

Im all for BOEING in this deal.

BIMAN, youre next with the B 777s!!!
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:35 am


The B 777 can lay the smackdown on the A 340!

One noticeable thing in the anti-Airbus crowd on here is a complete lack of objectivity and rational thought.

I presented a detailed list of reasons as to why I feel the A330/340 for the MCLR and the A32X for the SCSR makes a better fit at Air India.

I repeat :The 777 is a fine aircraft, but given the reasons (See above), I think the Airbus options make much better economic sense.

I am yet to see any such reasoning from the "Boeing is best, airbus is Shit" crowd.

Patriotism is one thing, stupidity is quite another.
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1825
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 11:14 am

Indianguy:

I am afraid Hamlet69 has pretty much refuted your "rational thoughts" in Reply 14. IF in AI's current plan, AI is interested in more than just the aircraft in the 772ER/343 category, then by including the 332 might make Airbus's case stronger. But AI current RFP is limited to the 772ER and 343. Then your theory simply doesn't apply. Your analysis is also biased that you chose to include the lower end only. How do you know a 772/772ER/772LR/773/773ER combination would not fit AI's future even better? One engine type and one crew type vs. possibly up to three engine types and additional two-engine/four-engine cross crew qualification, I don't think I need to tell you which one is operationally more desirable. FWIW, your claim that the 777 is designed for long haul only is incorrect. The base low gross weight 772 is optimized for medium range operations. The 772 is competitive against the 333. In fact, Airbus could hardly get anyone to order the original 217t 333 that they had to offer a more capable 230t 333 to revive the 333 line. Also, for Air India, the next critical route development is non-stop services to North America. UA sure will start nonstop services to India when they become financially healthy. AI had better have a plan to counter. They also need to fend off a handful of Middle Eastern airlines who will soon be able to offer efficient one-stop service to the US from India. Even Pakistan are getting ready with their 772ER/772LR/773ER order. The 772ER/LR is a far superior solution to the 343/345 solution. All in all, your analysis is flawed.
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:08 pm

With all due respect and no malice intended, I really don't think it matters which aircraft the airlines of India decide to choose. Many years ago, I was aboard an IC charter from Bombay to Agra, returning the same day. IC used a relatively new 737-XXX (don't recall exact model). As the group leader, I was invited into the cockpit to see how an airplane "works." I didn't tell the crew I had worked for an airline and had seen many cockpits inflight, as I was trying to be gracious. A guest in India. What bothered me was the fact the Captain was in the cockpit alone (FO in cabin with F/A's, F/E - no idea where he was). We were over an Indian city (can't remember) and the Captain did a "radar" check with the ground. When he told the controllers he was flying a Boeing 373, I excused myself and returned to my seat; praying the remainder of the flight. Rough landing in Bombay, however we were on the ground. So, point being that if the Indian crews don't even know what the fuck they're flying, you ain't gonna see me on an Indian registered a/c ever again. I love India and have utmost respect for Indian culture and people. I have been there twice, but I sure wouldn't want to fly JFK/BOM nonstop. On any airline!
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 6:54 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 12:46 pm

IC used a relatively new 737-XXX.... I didn't tell the crew I had worked for an airline... What bothered me was the fact the Captain was in the cockpit alone (FO in cabin with F/A's, F/E - no idea where he was).

Umm... if you worked for an airline, I would hope that YOU would know that a 737 doesn't use a F/E.  Smile
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 2:04 pm

B747-437 - The third man may not have been a F/E, but there were three in the pit. And the airline I worked for didn't fly 737's. We flew 727-100's, DC-8-63's, and 747-200's. I regret that I wasn't 737 qualified; 747 and DC-8, yes - somewhat bigger aircraft flying with U.S. registration. Some U.S. standards were a tad more stringent than Indian qualifications. By your profile, when I flew both as an employee and in India, you could possibly still have been in training pants. I'm a tad older than you and have been in this business a few more years. Regardless of the IC complement or terminology, the Captain still didn't know the aircraft was a 737, NOT a "373". Another thing I didn't mention - when we (108 passengers and 5 group leaders) got to the BOM airport, IC had "forgotten" they had a charter and had to scramble to find an aircraft. Our one day trip to Agra was delayed by 5 hours. And the Bombay domestic terminal was not the most comfortable place to wait.

It just dawned on me - maybe the Captain thought he was flying a Stratocruiser - that was a Boeing 377 model. Only a difference of 4 digits - and 30 years......
 
Vimanav
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:46 pm

Tbear815

AA. If it was a B737, it could only have been a -200 as IC only had those and no other versions.
BB. Yep IC can screw up once a while but not to the extent that a flight could happen without an F/O. Heads would definitely roll for those kind of things... and they can't be hidden.
CC. Maybe the Capt was trying to stress the aircraft type on radio to a controller who thought it to be some other 7X7 model that it was a "THREE seven, THREE..." with a stress on the three. So maybe you did not catch onto the earlier bit of the conversation.

Having interacted extensively with IC and AI crew on a personal level since childhood (and I still do), I have never seen one who did not know aircraft type - at least the one that he was flying. Some maybe a little sloppy in terms of sartorial elegance, some may have problems with their English and some may chew 'Paan' (betel leaves) and tobacco... but one still not knowing his aircraft type... No.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
tbear815
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 4:08 pm

Vimanav -

Thanks for your explanations. Again, the third body in the pit could have been a check officer. I don't know the hierarchy, but it just body placement at the time and the coincidence of the Captain on the radio stating it was a "373." That, combined with a very hard landing in Bombay (late at night - couldn't see the condition of the runway) made me think twice about ever flying an airline of India. Certainly things have changed, I would hope. I think the most interesting aspect of the flight were the coconut husks in oil that were flaming and being used for runway lighting in Agra. That made an aura I will never forget - it was beautiful at dusk! As I said, I've been to India twice in my life and could go again in a minute - preferably on BA, LH, AF, etc.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Johan Ljungdahl

 
Vimanav
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33 am

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Fri Aug 29, 2003 5:35 pm

Please do plan your visit to India. And while here, I strongly recommend that you fly with 9W (Jet Airways)... they will definitely bring about a change in your views about airlines from India.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:13 am

I’d like to draw the attention of the moderators to this particular comment by N79969:

As opposed to taking Indianguy seriously? If there is an extremist on this website, I think the consensus view across the board would be Indianguy.

Once again a member is resorting to name calling without any provocation whatsoever. Another of the “Who the fu** is Roy?” kind of post. I am just the latest target of this gang of rabble-rousers. Remember we have users who been called “Towel Head”, “Arab Lover”, “Aussie Bitch/Slut” etc on these boards and who after a sustained campaign have quit the forums. Don’t believe me: just do a search on these forums. And the culprits are the same familiar bunch of characters: Alpha1, N79969, KROC, YYZ717 and so on. It would have been one thing if they kept the dignity of the individual message boards. But these characters are bringing the non-aviation baggage on to the aviation board as well as can be seen from N79969’s post.

I raised some specific points in my post. They could have stuck to the topic and presented their point of view accordingly. Isnt that the way its supposed to be? But of course a rational statement of facts has no place in their character. Instead, sling mud at your opponents!

And this isn’t the first time I am raising this issue with the moderators. What is being done about it? I request the moderators to kindly take a look.
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Boeing Wants To Buy Old Air India Planes For New

Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:21 am


N79969, Hamlet69, YYZ717 etc: Exactly what is it to you whether Air India purchases Airbus or the Boeing?

To answer a specific point raised by someone earlier: the A330-200 and the A330-300 can be powered by the PW engines similar to the one used on the 747-400’s. The A340-500 is better fit as VimanAv stated. But the reasoning behind the A340-300 with CFM56 engines is that it would give commonality benefits across IC’s fleet of CFM56 powered A32X’s (the newer ones coming in) as well as AI’s own fleet of SCSR’s which could use the same engine. They would have the same core.

Have a query here: Could a 772 operating routes of an avg of 6 hours duration (min 1.5 hrs, max 9 hours) do them cheaper than a A330-200? All costs considered? Same comparison for a route of length 14.5 hours.

Mr.Keskar: The erstwhile CEO of Boeing India? Hmm! now that is an interesting character! His bashing of Airbus shows a certain complex! How do you say it in America? LOOOSER!? Right! How many orders has he won for Boeing since he got here? Say it again, loudly this time: LOOSER! And a very bad one at that!

But I am more concerned with what this character did while he was here. An honest look at his activities would be a sobering experience for those American patriots who claim that Boeing is the epitome of clean business practices while its foreign competitors are all corrupt. The CBI should be made to investigate into his use of Boeing India’s “Entertainment Account”, and find out who all were “entertained” through that. Also, while they are at it, they could also probe his links with politicians like Pramod Mahajan and also the dirty politics behind appointment of the Naresh Chandra committee. All this should be pretty revealing! And yes, confiscate his passport and put him under house arrest before launching the investigation: We don’t want another Hinduja fleeing off to Switzerland!

This character made a lot of noise about how the Boeing lost the 150 seat aircraft order for IC in the 1980’s because of corruption. Well, the CBI and indeed the Govt have just given the former ruling party and babus involved a clean chit. A Govt consisting of the former ruling party’s fiercest opponents giving them a clean chit?

So what do u make of Keskar’s rant? A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black! And this guy still has credibility? Yeah right!

-Roy