gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:53 pm

AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:50 pm

AirTran is adding a DFW - BWI nonstop in November, in addition to the ATL and MCO flights. Up to four gates at DFW are rumored. Gotta luv that Wright Amendment! Also, an eighth daily flight between BWI and BOS is being added.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
potomac
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:06 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:16 pm

actually, it seems like the real expansion is at BWI:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030827/275077_1.html

good for Air Tran, good for BWI, good for DFW.
 
IAHERJ
Posts: 527
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 1:52 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:21 pm

Looks like DFW will be a new focus city for us. I think you will see flights headed the other direction from DFW as well on 717's. A few West coast cities come to mind.
Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6794
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:46 pm

DCA-ROCguy gets his wish!  Smile
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6794
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:52 pm

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:52 pm

It makes sense to build up BWI and go after the routes that you do not go head to head with WN on, and there is a lot of those to chose from. A DFW build up involves taking on both AA and DL, and I know they go up against DL in ATL and do OK. Tho to take on both AA and DL that is a whole nother fight. AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
potomac
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:06 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:56 pm

i would add that a DFW build-up involves an overall Dallas/Ft. Worth area build-up too, and it that sense, you are taking on WN in a way. that's where things get interesting - see the thread of LCC vs. LCC.
 
gr8slvrflt
Posts: 1452
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:53 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:03 pm

Southwest only operates out of Love Field and because of the Wright Amendment is severely limited in its offerings from Dallas. Because of this there is no direct, low-cost service from Dallas/Ft. Worth to major markets like Florida, New York, D.C., L.A., etc. AA and DL squashed Legend but I think it just might be payback time for them.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:03 pm

"AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail."

I'm sure the powers that be at AirTran never considered this possibility, and just decided willy-nilly to expand here.

AirTran has NEVER based it's business plan on what other companies might do. Unlike these other companies (such as DL), who seem to base their entire business plan reacting to what other companies (such as AirTran and jetBlue) do.

So, let AA protect it's FORTRESS hub (whatever that is...must be another A.net term like "cartel carrier"  Insane ) "tooth and nail". All that amounts to is pouring tons of money down the drain. While I'm certain that all these companies believe they have such deep pockets that they can continue to take huge losses protecting their market share, reality soon hits them squarely in the face. Maybe they notice.....maybe they don't.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:04 pm

Potomac

To some extent that is true, tho because of the Wright admedment Airtran can offer service that WN can not offer.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
potomac
Posts: 692
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 5:06 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:05 pm

true, maybe bwi is the better example of LCCs starting to compete against eachother in terms of service offerings.
 
flyinryan99
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 6:54 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:42 pm

"DCA-ROCguy gets his wish! "


My thoughts exactly!! I still wonder if FNT - BWI and DAY - BWI are on the horizon, maybe on CRJs. I say this because the Detroit - BWI market is only served by Northwest and they make a lot of money on this route. I think it would be a success right off of the bat. DAY - BWI would do really well because of the military personnel that would commute between the two cities. Overall this is great for Baltimore and for AirTran....I am just amazed at how much they have expanded their network in the past few years.

Ry
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:45 pm

Agreed.....

There is no LCC competition at DFW currently, and LOTS of possibilities for AirTran there... LGA, PHL, MSP, LAX, LAS, SFO, all of Florida, MCI, PIT, MEM, etc. etc.....

BWI is one major operation where we're seeing two of the strongest LCCs (granted WN is still the 800 lb gorilla) compete on the same nonstop flights (BWI-TPA, MCO, FLL). So far, so good.

Travis
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:49 pm

M717

"AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail."

I'm sure the powers that be at AirTran never considered this possibility, and just decided willy-nilly to expand here.

I am sure the powers that be have considered all that the others will throw theres way! I am just pointing out that AA has a history of fighting tooth and nail to protect there market. Also AirTran started PIT tp PHL flights that should have been embraced by all the flyers that US had gouged for years and that did not work.

AirTran has NEVER based it's business plan on what other companies might do. Unlike these other companies (such as DL), who seem to base their entire business plan reacting to what other companies (such as AirTran and jetBlue) do.

I am a firm believer of AirTran and JetBlue and even own stock in both.

So, let AA protect it's FORTRESS hub (whatever that is...must be another A.net term like "cartel carrier" ) "tooth and nail". All that amounts to is pouring tons of money down the drain. While I'm certain that all these companies believe they have such deep pockets that they can continue to take huge losses protecting their market share, reality soon hits them squarely in the face. Maybe they notice.....maybe they don't.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ti717
Posts: 220
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 11:33 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Wed Aug 27, 2003 11:57 pm

DFW does have other LCC.
You do have to deal with HP out west from DFW that have expanded to both PHX and LAS. With HP DFW is getting a few of 757 flights.
Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
 
usairways85
Posts: 3603
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:01 am

This isn't much of a buildup at BWI, it's only 2 flights (1x DFW and 1x BOS) It's not any different than what Airtran has been doing for the past year at BWI, adding a few flights here and there. As for DFW it should be interesting to see how the flight does, it's only one flight going up against all of AA's flights to DFW. Should also be interesting if this is part of a DFW expansion with a few more destinations from DFW or if this is a BWI expansion and adding destinations from BWI
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:03 am

Although I'm a HUGE fan of HP, have a lot of friends there, and really want them to succeed (the new nonstop transcons will do very well for them, I'm sure), I don't think AirTran considers them a viable threat....(ATL-LAS, an HP nonstop market, is kicking ass these days).

Travis
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:05 am

Pardon me for not getting to nervous for AA.....10 flights daily versus 600 is not a threat...it's a joke.

AA has plenty of excess capacity...they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes. If they can run BI and DL out of town.....AirTran is walk in the park....
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:14 am

This article was in the Dallas Morning News Business section today.




AirTran well on its way back
Rebirth seen as unprecedented after deadly ValuJet crash of '96


10:52 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. – The crash of a ValuJet DC-9 into the Everglades in May 1996, killing all 110 people aboard, made an industry pariah of the low-fare airline.

A little more than seven years later, the carrier, now known as AirTran Airways Inc., has made a stunning recovery.

This year, AirTran began offering cross-country service, announced a $5 billion aircraft order and reported its fifth consecutive quarterly profit at a time when the major carriers' financial fortunes are sagging.

When it was known as ValuJet, the airline "had old planes, poor service, weak management," said Ray Neidl, an airline analyst with Blaylock & Partners in New York. "Everything has completely changed."

The airline – which recently began flying to Denver, Las Vegas and Los Angeles – will add Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and San Francisco to its schedule before year's end.

AirTran, which now flies to 43 cities, also plans to add service in three to five cities next year and in 2005, said chairman and chief executive Joe Leonard.

"We can put airplanes anywhere," Mr. Leonard said. "We'll keep pushing our web out further and further."

Moving in


The carrier also is growing at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, where it will begin offering service to Orlando, the airline's headquarters city, next month. The carrier currently offers daily flights from D/FW to Atlanta, its largest hub. (Austin is the only other Texas city on AirTran's route map.)

AirTran also is taking advantage of bigger carriers' cutbacks. It's looking, for example, at moving into St. Louis, where Fort Worth-based American Airlines Inc. is reducing service.

The growth intrigues some airline industry experts because AirTran goes about it in such a low-key way.

"I haven't been able to figure out in the case of AirTran what their gimmick is," said Alan Bender, a professor of airline economics at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla. "I scratch my head at what makes AirTran special."

Yet its turnaround is unprecedented, Mr. Bender said. Other airlines, such as Air Florida, have sunk under the weight of fatal crashes. Air Florida folded a few years after a 1982 crash in Washington, D.C., killed 78 people.

The road to rehabilitation began in 1997 when ValuJet acquired a smaller carrier called AirTran, adopted its name and moved its headquarters to Orlando from Atlanta.

A management shakeup two years later brought a new team of executives headed by Mr. Leonard, a longtime industry executive who served as chief operating officer for now-defunct Eastern Air Lines. Only one member of the company's 14-member leadership team worked for ValuJet at the time of the crash.

But no factor has been more important to its turnaround than retiring the airline's aging DC-9s and bringing in new, roomier Boeing 717s, Mr. Leonard said.


Safe and sound


Industry experts said the new planes have dramatically improved AirTran's safety record.

"Now you look at the airline and it's one of the most modern fleets in the world," said John Wensveen, a professor of airline management at Embry-Riddle.

Seven years after the ValuJet crash, many travelers don't associate AirTran with its predecessor.

Mark Wolsonovich, who regularly flies on AirTran, had no idea that the airline used to be known as ValuJet.

"To me, that's one of those flukes," Mr. Wolsonovich said of the 1996 crash, while waiting for a flight from Orlando to Chicago. "Things like that happen."
 
jr
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:15 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:14 am

But how long are they going to dump money for - its not like AA has a whole lot of the green stuff at hand to do that on a prolonged basis at this point of time. AirTran is no BI or DL - I think this route will work, and will probably see additional frequencies within the year.
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
LoneStarMike
Posts: 2802
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2000 1:02 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:22 am

(Austin is the only other Texas city on AirTran's route map.)

Dallas Morning News is wrong. AirTran doesn't serve AUS. Houston is the only other Texas city AirTran serves.

LoneStarMike

 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:25 am

Don't pay any attention to Greg, he's a consistent AirTran naysayer.

AirTran's not worried about AA or DL or any of the other "big boys". It keeps it's "eyes on the prize", and worries less about what it's neighbors are doing, and more on it's own operation. DL is struggling to fill the seats it dumped into the LAX market now, while AirTran posts record load factors.

Let AA come in and flood any new AirTran DFW-XXX markets with capacity. AirTran only has to fill a coupla hundred seats a day, then sits back, shakes it's head, and sighs at the multiple 757s and 767s leaving half to three quarters full, trailing cash behind them...

AirTran is less worried about stealing AA market share, than it is about simply GENERATING MORE REVENUE. Maybe if AA did the same, it wouldn't be in the mess it's in now.

Speaking as a former AA employee (now AirTran), I can speak freely of the basket-case which is American Airlines.

Travis
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:38 am

AirTran is highly leveraged. It doesn't take much to upset the balance between profitability and loss. It's shaky at best--just check their equity (whoaaa! what equity????).
AA doesn't have the deep pockets it once had, but it does have the resources to effectively stomp out any competition on their home turf.
While they may have conceded dominance to UA at ORD---anything more than a minor infraction at DFW would likely not go unnoticed.

While not an employee of AA...I know a lot of their lenders and legal counsel very well...
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:39 am

AA has plenty of excess capacity...they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes.

And if AA does, the DoJ should take swift action against AA for predatory pricing.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5501
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:45 am

I don't see this as being a "DFW expansion" either -- as AirTran's press release states, this expansion is more focused on BWI. I'm actually surprised that the flights aren't better-timed to provide connections from BOS and ROC to DFW; right now, AirTran is only offering connections via ATL on those routes.

I see this more as testing the waters to see how well they'll do against DL and AA in a city (BWI) where they already have a significant presence.
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:57 am

The problem with the DOJ is that they have "tried" to nail AA's ass about preditory pricing before with Vanguard and Western Pacific, if I am not mistaken. The DOJ didn't do a very good job because nothing ever happened to AA.

When Vanguard entered the DFW-ICT market, AA started flying jets in that market again, when it had long been a ATR market. Of course, they also matched Vanguard in pricing too. When Vanguard pulled out of the market, the flights went back to ATR's and the price jumped sky high, again.

AA has done this many times before, with Braniff, Legend, etc.


Jay
 
Guest

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:58 am

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've never had problems finding low fares on American, primarily in markets/routes where they have no competition.
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:59 am

"While not an employee of AA...I know a lot of their lenders and legal counsel very well..."

BFD.

I really don't think AirTran gives one rat's a$$ about the possiblility of AA "running them out of town". In fact, it's downright laughable.

"they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes"

I believe DL has been trying this tactic in ATL for years. I see they have AirTran running for their lives there. Hey counselor...watch as AirTran further expands in DFW and watch as AA continues to lose millions.

What a joke. Maybe if you dumped your Boeing stock, you wouldn't care so much about what AirTran and it's 717s do.  Insane


 
Guest

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:03 am

When Vanguard entered the DFW-ICT market, AA started flying jets in that market again, when it had long been a ATR market. Of course, they also matched Vanguard in pricing too. When Vanguard pulled out of the market, the flights went back to ATR's and the price jumped sky high, again.

This is called competition.
You cannot seriously expect AA to not match prices. It'd be shooting themselves in the foot. When the market demands a price, it gets it. They put in jets to better compete. Then when Vanguard left, the market could support higher fares. Vanguard just artificially deflated the price the market demanded.
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:06 am

Isnt almost everyone higly leveraged these days?
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:08 am

Right N951U,

If you want to go on living in your little insolated dream world, go ahead. It might be called competition, but it is also called preditory pricing if you ask me. AA has done this a number of times to smaller carriers, like the ones I just mentioned.

I hope Air Tran kicks AA's ass here in DFW and I hope Jet Blue comes in here and rips them a new one also. It is time for DFW to quit being AA's "Bitch" !! I get so sick of people who think the world revolves around AA. I also don't feel sorry for their current financial situation either.

Jay
 
travatl
Posts: 1943
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:12 am

The best part, is AirTran will be doing with AA's own 717s....

hehehe

Travis
 
jr
Posts: 1043
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 1:15 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:26 am

I hope Air Tran kicks AA's ass here in DFW and I hope Jet Blue comes in here and rips them a new one also. It is time for DFW to quit being AA's "Bitch" !! I get so sick of people who think the world revolves around AA. I also don't feel sorry for their current financial situation either.

Couldn't agree more. Preach on!
I've flown on 9V-SPK.
 
Guest

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:11 am

If you want to go on living in your little insolated dream world, go ahead. It might be called competition, but it is also called preditory pricing if you ask me. AA has done this a number of times to smaller carriers, like the ones I just mentioned.

So if the carrier is under a certain size, American should stand idly by and let them take business? I don't know what you are on if you think American should keep their prices at the original level (which was clearly working for them if they could support fares that high and keep service) while the competition undercuts them? Let's say American was charging $500 round trip DFW-ICT. If nobody was flying them, they wouldn't keep the route or would lower the fare (notwithstanding connecting traffic which is what most of DFW-ICT is). Vanguard offers $100 round trip. I don't see how you expect American to not match it. The market demand, thanks to Vanguard, is for $100 round trips. American simply adapts to fulfill the demand. After Vanguard leaves, the market rebounds to the original supply/demand balance of $500 round trips.

I hope Air Tran kicks AA's ass here in DFW and I hope Jet Blue comes in here and rips them a new one also. It is time for DFW to quit being AA's "Bitch" !! I get so sick of people who think the world revolves around AA. I also don't feel sorry for their current financial situation either.

If you get what you wish for, I hope you never complain about how you can't get where you need to go. I don't see any of these God-blessed LCC's flying international, long-haul, to terciary markets, or offering some of the frequencies the major network carriers provide. If AA collapses, it'll be much worse for DFW. But, I guess you'd really enjoy seeing thousands upon thousands out of work and DFW (among dozens of communities) having a large gap in airline service. Many cities, such as those in Texas, rely on the health of the DFW hub for their airline service (through AA/AE).

The fact is that these LCCs simply cannot do what AA can. I can't imagine what travel would be like with only LCCs. I guess people could only travel to major cities, would never leave North America, and couldn't pay for premium services even if they wanted to. What a sad day that would be....
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:06 am

It's always great to root for the underdog..but when they rile an 800lb gorilla..I'd be careful.
Last I looked, AA had about 20+ suits of 'predatory' pricing filed against them in the last 12 years. I think two of them were actually decided against them..the rest thrown out. Competition is a wonderful thing.

AirTran's market capitalization sucks (as do most the majors)...so overnight that company can effectively be in some serious trouble (ask any banker if you don't understand). Don't try and preach that AirTran is the next Southwest..their cost structures don't even compare.

A LCC pilot on a 717?.....Wow...BFD (two giant career mistakes)

 
727LOVER
Posts: 6794
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:31 am

To all the people who like to bring up the Valujet crash:

When it was known as ValuJet, the airline "had old planes, poor service, weak management," said Ray Neidl, an airline analyst with Blaylock & Partners in New York. "Everything has completely changed."

"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
bartond
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 6:59 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:00 am

Yeah I'm all for the competition and I hope jetblue comes to DFW. Then maybe AA will concentrate on it's international route structure and maybe get us a non-stop to Australia from DFW, either via AA or codeshared with QF metal.

But slow down with all of the DFW talk - for those of us that live here, we need AA to stay in power. It's the single largest economic generator for all of North Texas. However, let the games begin to make things interesting...
 
milemaster
Posts: 1015
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:19 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 6:15 am

A LCC pilot on a 717?.....Wow...BFD (two giant career mistakes)

Haha... Agreed.
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

More Comments To N951U

Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:22 am

Why don't you change your name on this forum to CheAArleAAder ?? I honestly think it is you that has been hitting the "sauce" today !! Let me ask you something; do you work for AA or does your parents or other family members? AA sticks it to DFW anytime it can and the sooner you recognize that fact, the better off you are going to be.

As for AA going broke, no, I'd really hate to see that happen as it would have a huge and profound impact on the DFW area and even the possibly the GreAAT StAAte of TexAAs. But also think about how many people AA has put out on the streets while working for Braniff, Vanguard, Legend and to some extent, TWA. AA is NOT the greatest thing in the World since sliced-bread, which is what you'd try and have us believe!

What I would like to see is more reasonable pricing from them on all of their routes, not just where there is a competitor, whether it is Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue or Vanguard (RIP !!). Why do you think HP has finally began to turn it around? One of the main reasons is a simple pricing structure and AA does not have that.

Do you "really" think AA would have gone broke by letting Vanguard try and prosper in the DFW-ICT market? No, but by God, Uncle Bob isn't going to let ANYONE try and take market share away from the mighty AA !! As for your comments about the LCC not being able to cover the entire US, that is true; for now. But with the way things are going, I bet most every "large" metropolitan area will be cover by a LCC within 5 years, at the latest.

If you want to continue to support more or less a monopoly at DFW, I hope you have a big wallet!

 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:26 am

First of all: Woo hoo! Woo hoo! Thanks 727lover and Flyinryan for the notes. I hope to use the flight very soon.

AA has plenty of excess capacity...they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes. If they can run BI and DL out of town.....AirTran is walk in the park....

Funny, AA and Delta put together haven't run AirTran off of DFW-ATL. Six 717's a day may not be close to what they run, but it's not negligible either. AirTran does just fine going up against the big guys. And if AA did "dump fares," that would be predatory and DOJ should smack them with a huge fine.

The problem with the DOJ is that they have "tried" to nail AA's ass about preditory pricing before with Vanguard and Western Pacific, if I am not mistaken. The DOJ didn't do a very good job because nothing ever happened to AA.

I read the USA v. AMR decision (the Vanguard case), a long slog through lots of legalese. Bottom line is that DOJ didn't do their homework and deserved to lose. In addition, capacity dumping is difficult to prove because the definition is vague. I've argued for a long time that Congress needs to tighten up antitrust laws. When they tried in 1999, the terrified network carriers spent millions lying to the public ("it's reregulation," what BS) and Congress bought it. I don't think they would again, though, the landscape has changed lots since then.

N951U and others who claim that LCC competition is somehow going to drive network carriers collectively under, are well out of touch with reality. Demand is there for the network product, just not six carriers' worth. Let the market shake down to four carriers (of which AA will be a survivor) and they'll thrive alongside the LCC's.

AA's DFW hub will be around until the Second Coming. Any claims that opening up DAL, or growth at DFW by LCC's, threaten the AA DFW hub, are a bunch of crocodile tears. But AA has been raking the Metroplex and its visitors for years, it's high time that airline deregulation finally reaches them too. AA doesn't have to like it.

Jim

Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 8:01 am

I see that any support of AA here is completely unwelcome.

Why don't you change your name on this forum to CheAArleAAder ?? I honestly think it is you that has been hitting the "sauce" today !! Let me ask you something; do you work for AA or does your parents or other family members? AA sticks it to DFW anytime it can and the sooner you recognize that fact, the better off you are going to be.

AA "sticks" it with airfares that it can support. Why would AA keep come fares so "high" if nobody was buying them? Yes, sometimes in hubs those who live there get screwed while those who connect benefit.

No, nobody in my family works for AA. I used to though. My only connection to the airline now is as an elite-tier frequent flyer who throws all of their business toward American if possible, as I've been nothing but pleased (except for a flight on Eagle/op by Executive out of Miami this week which was horrendous). I can find fares that work for me on American 9 times out of 10. Whether due to competition (such as a recent DFW-SAT round trip) or simply due to market drive (nice Florida to Paducah or Lafayette for under $140). I enjoy More Room Throughout Coach, Admirals Clubs, and American's employees. They treat me right, so I support them. I realize I may have the odd bad experience and I come to expect that periodically and deal with it.

I do fly Southwest occasionally when their schedule/price works better. I don't enjoy it, but flying another carrier isn't worth paying $100 more for a ticket.

As for AA going broke, no, I'd really hate to see that happen as it would have a huge and profound impact on the DFW area and even the possibly the GreAAT StAAte of TexAAs. But also think about how many people AA has put out on the streets while working for Braniff, Vanguard, Legend and to some extent, TWA. AA is NOT the greatest thing in the World since sliced-bread, which is what you'd try and have us believe!

No, AA is not the greatest thing in the world since sliced-bread, and I don't want anybody to believe that as I don't believe it myself. As somebody who racked up a lot of time flying TWA almost exclusively, and has lived in St. Louis and another big TWA city in the past, what AA has done to the remains of that carrier really hurts and feels personal. But, things must happen. The November 1 schedule cuts at the STL "hub" inconvenience me, but thankfully the routes I fly in/out of STL are being kept, albeit at lesser frequency.

Southwest did help beat up Braniff inside Texas. Vanguard's ICT-DFW service was primarily O & D traffic and probably wouldn't have lasted very long anyway. Northwest as a big suspect in the Vanguard demise. Yes, I can say that the attact on Legend was blatant and I don't approve of what American did, but can understand it from a competitive point of view. I see their reasoning and motives, but may not agree with them.

What I would like to see is more reasonable pricing from them on all of their routes, not just where there is a competitor, whether it is Southwest, AirTran, JetBlue or Vanguard (RIP !!). Why do you think HP has finally began to turn it around? One of the main reasons is a simple pricing structure and AA does not have that.

American did try a simplified pricing structure in the early 90's and did again recently on select routes. The other major/network carriers slapped them silly. A similar structure among the larger carriers will only be successful if they all do it instead of using it as a chance to kick each other around.

American does have reasonable pricing on MANY routes where there are no competitors, or very little competition from other network carriers. I guess a person's definition of reasonable pricing can vary their viewpoint. To me it is the price that makes it beat driving, being worth my time and effort to fly rather than drive. I find $700 transcon fares reasonable. I don't find $350 JAX-MIA fares reasonable.

Do you "really" think AA would have gone broke by letting Vanguard try and prosper in the DFW-ICT market? No, but by God, Uncle Bob isn't going to let ANYONE try and take market share away from the mighty AA !! As for your comments about the LCC not being able to cover the entire US, that is true; for now. But with the way things are going, I bet most every "large" metropolitan area will be cover by a LCC within 5 years, at the latest.

I think most every "large" metropolitan area is already covered in the U.S. by a LCC in one manner or another. Would AA have gone broke by letting Vanguard prosper in the DFW-ICT market? What do you want them to have done? Not change fares, not change equipment, and watch load factors go to zero? It would have done worse damage to ICT if they lost DFW service and the connecting possibilities through American. They had to compete, and I'm sure Wichita would rather have American long term. American has obviously been able to grow the market on their own. Looks like after the November 1 schedule change, DFW-ICT will have two MD-80 and five CRJ-700 daily. Quite an upgrade from the ATRs of the past.

While LCCs may be able to get one to every large metropolitan area in the United States, they can't get you to much of the country. Lots of business occurs in small/medium cities. LCCs can't get me to XNA (a huge business hot spot), LNK, PAH, the states of ND/MT/SD/ME, the list goes on.

No, I don't feel that the LCCs will put the majors out of business, but many here seem to have that as their wish. They can harm the majors. Look at what yields did in STL..... went to nil and caused American to cut flights in half. The St. Louis business community is reeling, as are many other cities affected. TWA never had a problem making money in some of these routes until the LCCs came along, but low yields forced a cutback of not only routes with competition, but many others. Nobody suffers but the people of St. Louis. The businesses would rather have higher fares and those services back.
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:16 am

Sounds like the like/dislike for AA could be in another forum. I certainly have my pros and cons for the Eagle....

Any way you want to slice it, the LCC's are here to stay. I have flown AirTran on several occasions from ATL and have had mixed results. However, when I stepped back and looked at the product that was offered versus the price I paid, I'm not complaining, and would fly them again. Unfortunately I will probably never see them here in BHM, so I will still use WN and as many AA D3 passes I can get from Pop..
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:48 am

As a business traveler with a very demanding schedule..and one that changes often, LCC's like Airtran or JetBlue have little value for me. If I need to get from Houston to Boston or Los Angeles...I have my choice of dozens of flights. With LCC's my choice is limited to only a few. Plus the services they offer...on the ground and in the air is severely limited.

Carriers with First Class, dedicated lounges at all major hubs, meal selection, and other services are sometimes a business necessity instead of a luxury...

As I stated, it's very likely AirTran can make some headway into DFW..but it will only be because AA allows it. History shows us this...

 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

More Comments To N951U

Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:13 am

Yes you are 100% correct. Any support you give AA on this matter is certainly not welcome in my opinion. I used to work as a travel agent and have worked with AA in the past so many times with their arrogant attitude they make me want to puke. I'd love to go a few rounds with Bob Crandall myself, he is a pompous ass !!

I have friends who worked for Legend and they told me a story abou the son of the founder of Legend. The founder now works as President of Airbus North America but I can't remember his full name. T. Allan McArtor or something like that. Anyway, before Legend even started, this man's son and some co-workers were at some fancy banquet which Crandall was to be one of the honorees. These two guys walk up to Crandall just to say hello and congratulate him on this award he was about to receive. As soon as he saw their names and realized they both were from Legend, Crandall began spewing a ton of expletives towards them telling them how he was going to put their sorry ass out of business, etc.

Sounds like a real classy gentleman to me !!

I hate AA, no question about it. You on the other hand seem to bleed AA so there is no sense in trying to convince you of the error of your ways.

All monopoloy hubs are BAD !! Just ask the folks at MSP about their love for NW. I bet you won't have many replies !! Why don't you ask the folks at CVG how much they love DL. I bet you won't have many replies !!

Hopefully, you'll eventually understand what I am trying to convey to you, but I doubt it. You AAlreAAdy sound BrAAinwAAshed to me.


 
Guest

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:23 am

Your rude attitude is as unwelcome to me as my support of an employer of many of my friends, and formerly of myself, is to you.

Yes, Bob Crandall was an ass. Everybody at American thinks so, especially the union employees. Just ask any of them. Most weren't sorry to see him go.

Let's see... I'm brainwashed because I think with my wallet when making airline reservations. If tickets are the same price, or relatively close, I fly American. I use AirTran on a loosely-frequent basis when I go to Atlanta, as I hate Delta and I'd have to fly 1000 miles west, connect, then fly 800 miles back east to get to ATL. I fly Southwest within Florida as they are clearly cheaper, usually a third of AA's price to Miami/Ft. Lauderdale. I used to use Frontier when I lived in Omaha and they were great. With the bulk of my travel going to an AA hub (STL and DFW), American works best for me and offers the best price to those cities. I could fly Southwest to STL.... and make two stops and have an 8 hour journey rather than hopping a 1hr45min non-stop with American (who is usually cheaper on JAX-STL).

I hate most LCCs, you hate American. Doesn't sound like either person is brainwashed any more than the other.

I fly who is cheapest, most convenient, and treats me the best. American works for me more so than any other network carrier or LCC.
 
DCA-ROCguy
Posts: 3903
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2000 5:03 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 11:24 am

Yes you are 100% correct. Any support you give AA on this matter is certainly not welcome in my opinion. I used to work as a travel agent and have worked with AA in the past so many times with their arrogant attitude they make me want to puke. I'd love to go a few rounds with Bob Crandall myself, he is a pompous ass !!

Easy, Jay. I'm completely with you on American and Bob Crandall. And your friend's story--or one very similiar to it--made it into Thomas Petzinger's "Hard Landing." Crandall's nastiness is, well, legendary.

But it's still better to hear everyone out in the forum and have discussion. I've learned a fair amount from N951U, Greg, and others of their views, even if I disagree with them frequently or even think that they can be way off base at times. The forum is far better off with a diversity of viewpoints. I respect any number of our strong Cartel-network carrier supporters and am glad they are part of the forum too.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
User avatar
OzarkD9S
Posts: 4787
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2001 2:31 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:23 pm

WOW. A couple of flights by FL out of DFW and AA's collapses or FL dies a hideous death! HP to PHX and LAS hasn't crippled AA, and TZ to MDW hasn't done it either, nor F9 to DEN.
SO, if FL takes 4 gates at DFW and runs a few more flights to various cities this won't mean the end of AA, of DL for that matter. DL copes with WN at SLC, FL in ATL and MCO. WN is all over the place, much more of a threat to everyone than the other LCC's combined.
Perhaps TWA was the only real casualty of WN's rise, since without another domestic hub to buffer them from the effects of WN they were more susceptible than other airlines. Then again, the problems at TWA preceeded WN's national expansion.
Markets will adjust, airlines will adjust. The scorched earth market share at all costs atmosphere of years gone by is OVER. If a route can't cut the mustard, it will be downgraded or eliminated.
Next up: STL-CVG-MKE-MSP-STL.
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6794
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 12:35 pm

Some people on here get WAAAAAAAAAY to emotional!
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:17 pm

American might not be the best thing since sliced bread, but Bob Crandall as head of AA was. The unions hated him with a passion, and do you want to know why? Its because he would not cave to some of their schemes and threats for more money. The guy from all accounts was a bonafide jerk as head of AA, but sometimes it takes a real jerk to make an airline successful and profitable. You could say the same thing about Gordon Bethune and Continental, a lot of Continental staff hate the guy, but he's as tough as nails when it comes to union issues. That being said, Bethune does do a few things to encourage employee morale--such as the on-time bonus and limited profit-sharing.

I don't like FL at all, I think they provide a bare-bones product for usually only a few dollars off the majors price in most advance purchase situations. No thanks, I'll pay the extra $5 to have more daily flights and better ground service. I really hope they do well in DFW though, we still have the third highest average fare for a major hub (behind DTW and MSP). Its not like I really care about the markets they serve non-stop, just as long as it translates into lower fares.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
dsuairptman
Posts: 695
Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 9:45 am

RE: AirTran Begins DFW Expansion

Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:25 pm

Whatever,Whatever. If AT goes into DFW, I wish them the very best... as long as the quickly restore the GPT-DFW flight!
GEAUX SAINTS!

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos