SInGAPORE_AIR
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SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:42 am

Singapore Airlines Limited - a Member of Star Alliance - has according to sources according to the West Australian newspaper wants to start daily SYD - LAX flights before Christmas 2003 subject to an Open Skies agreement being signed between the Republic of Singapore and Australia.

MEL - AKL - U.S.A. flights could start in 2004. Both services possibly using a three class MEGATOP or two-class JUBILEE ER.

Regulators on both sides of the Tasman who fear a transpacific monopoly could ensue if Qantas and Air New Zealand tie-up, could have their fears allayed. United Airlines competes on the SYD - LAX route while Qantas competes with Air NZ on AKL - LAX.

More information at the West Australian website

Information was gathered from the above hyperlinked webpage and was not copied and pasted but rephrased. More information can be viewed by clicking the above hyperlinked webpage.
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nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 11:33 am

Very interesting - I hope SQ does start flying these routes. However, this article seems to indicate that this is contingent upon the Aussies and Singaporeans signing a deal, surely UA will be lobbying the US to go against this? Or does the fact that the US has open skies with both?? Australia and Singapore help?
 
copaair737
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:03 pm

i wonder if SQ will start up SFO-SYD or MEL-AKL-SFO nonstops. only one airline is serving the SFO-SYD route, and no other airline is operating the MEL-AKL-SFO route. wasnt SFO SQ's first US destination?
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flyinghighboy
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:11 pm

Maybe they might code share for the time being with NZ and UA as well on some of their routes and they might code share on some of SQ's routes

I hope they can start flying this route to bring the prices down of traveling with more competition.
 
QANTASpower
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:17 pm

They can ask all they want and they will get the same answer as they have got every other time - GO AWAY.

 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:47 pm

QANTASpower - Since SQ does not currently operate any fifth freedom flights from Australia whilst QF operates a ton from SIN, I don't think QF should be whining.
 
aussie747
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL -

Sun Aug 31, 2003 3:23 pm

From Australia's media news (in general)- Singapore has been playing down the situation much like the hype of them setting up a low cost domestic carrier in Australia. I know for a fact the Australian Government is quite flexible on allowing Singapore Airlines to compete on the route so long as Qantas had unhindered access on allowing what was termed "Qantas to set up a hub in Singapore" - to what extent that means is speculation , but I do know Qantas is quite cautious when expanding new routes

As from the US perspective is there any news on that front.
 
QANTASpower
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 4:05 pm

NickofAltlanta,

Talking about 5th freedom rights in this situation is nonsense. SQ can pick up all the European - Australia traffic it likes to compete with Qantas.

What will Qantas get in return for allowing them in the the US - Australia route. Nothing ... thats why it will not be allowed.

Qantas cannot get the 3rd country rights to take advantage of an open skies policy with Singapore.




 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:09 pm

Increased competition in the free market would lead to increased competition and lower prices for the consumer.

In addition, standards of service would increase in all competitors to capture market share, of which a certain airline would have a lead.

However, we're on tenterhooks as to how the Australian government will react to this latest (my words) potential invasion into the AU air industry.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
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BNE
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:15 pm

I am all for a Singapore flight that leaves SIN and flys to BNE before continuing on to SFO, now that would be good.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Singapore getting everything it wants on a SYD-LAX or MEL-AKL-LAX routing I don't think so.

Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 6:28 pm

LOL, you do get the JUBILEE 772s  Big grin

Anyway, from media reports either way, it doesn't seem to me that the U.S.A. is having much of a say. Why is this? Is it because Singapore already has an Open Skies agreement with the U.S.A. or is it because the Australian hurdle comprising of Qantas, John Anderson et al is probably larger than the U.S.A. obstacles to come, or even, not to come?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
QANTASpower
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:19 pm

The Australia to US aviation market is worth about $3Billion a year. Do you think the Australian Govt would be stupid enough to just hand over a big chunk of this to a Singapore Govt controlled airline. The net benefit to Australia would be highly negative.

Singapore Airlines is in decline and is desperate to get this. We will see.


 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:34 pm

The article points out that this may be one of the ways in which the Australian government can approve the QF/NZ alliance (the govt seems to be for it) without losing face.

QANTASpower - I still don't understand why fifth freedoms are irrelevant. The fact is that SQ does not fly to any markets from Australia except their own home market. QF flies to many from SIN in addition to Australia: Hong Kong, the UK, France and Germany as well as Indonesia and Malaysia thanks to Australian Airlines. So, from a fairness perspective, I don't think there is anything wrong with a little bit of reciprocity.

Yes, it's bad for Qantas. But, is it for the consumer? No.
 
9V-SVE
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:42 pm

SQ is not a government airline - although it started as one, I think now only some 40% of the airline is owned by the government.

BTW I'm sure QF will lose quite a bit of cash if the SIN government doesn't allow them to have fifth freedom rights to Europe. More than what SQ could loose if they aren't allowed to start AUS-USA services.
 
Marara
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 7:50 pm

Who cares about fairness?? Its a business deal ! The fact of the matter is SIN negotiated itself into this corner, what australia will be saying at this moment is 'What can u put on the table ??' they have already given QF freedom to fly via SIN. Sure it may make a NZ/QF alliance easier, but i wonder if a NZQF alliance is more important to them than having their biggest competitor in its back yard.

If SIN blocked QF from flying via SIN i dont think QF will see it as a great loss an inconvenience maybe. They would simply shift their hub elsewhere (KUL, BKK, etc) most likely taking other airlines with them (BA AY?) aswell as the landing fees and other benefits (tourism, airport spending etc)
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
 
Singapore 777
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:04 pm

Quite simply put, Singapore needs QF to bring all the transit passengers as this helps our tourist market. It is quite true that if SQ were allowed to fly Aus-US, there will be nothing that Singapore can offer to Australia that would be substantially beneficial to them.

Personally, I'd like SQ to refocus on their Singapore hub FIRST and get all their service standards right again. It seems that the airline has lost its direction in the last few months (or years) and I'd really really like to see SQ being up there with all the other airlines again. They used to serve a nice hot meal on even their one hour Singapore-Penang-Singapore legs for SGD330 round trip. Right now, I know Mum and Dad paid the same fare and are going to fly off next week but they will only be getting a pathetic sandwich as their meal (and that is why I had to give them advance warning so they will not be shocked when they board the plane). Bring back the nice hot meals and build better relations with your crew!
 
Ejazz
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:10 pm

SQ is still a Government Airline. Temasek Holdings have a majority stake.

NickofAtlanta

What business do you think Qantas picks up out of Singapore, a small island with a small population. I can guarantee that SIA picks up far more revenue passengers out of Australia than Qantas picks up out of Singapore. How many passengers do you think disembark in Singapore after flying there from Australia? Presently, its about 18% the remainder are all travelling onwards, mainly to Europe. Originating traffic in Singapore represents very minor revenue for any overseas Airline such as Qantas. Open skies between Singapore and Australia would see SIA laughing and Qantas wondering what to do with their new rights.

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TNboy
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:29 pm

Another airline on the Pacific route wouldn't hurt, although if anyone thinks the arrival of SQ would lead to lower fares they are dreaming. More competition, more choice, but probably at around what you are already paying, apart from an introductory spate of sweeteners. Generally the lowest fares are bargain basement anyway from QF and NZ. And the Singapore girls would get just as tired and unresponsive on the 14 and 15 hour hauls all night across the Pacific as any other mortals. It already happens on their North Pacific all-nighters.
Cheers
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wirraway
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:56 am

I read today that it's a done deal, John Anderson to meet with the
Singaporians at the end of this month (Sept) is just a formality.

I agree with most of the posters that QF will lose on the deal with the
AUS-US route, but hopefully by getting the QF/ANZ alliance it will blunten the blow a bit.

Wirraway
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:54 am

"I read today that it's a done deal, John Anderson to meet with the
Singaporians at the end of this month (Sept) is just a formality."

Oooh, shudder. I think this is one where I'll believe it when I see it, regardless of the potential that could ensue after this.

Got a source while we wait?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Continental
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:08 am

It probably won't be as good as it seems. The only way I could see that route filling up is if they offer considerably lower fares than Qantas. Aren't the aussies loyal Qantas customers? I would imagine so, they'd choose Qantas over Singapore. Seems like an odd route for them to fly.

co
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 3:13 am

Vaguely related is this...
----
DEPUTY Prime Minister John Anderson said yesterday he would make a decision on whether to quit politics before Christmas.

The National Party leader, however, said he did not believe speculation about his leadership was destabilising the party or could hurt its chances at the next election.

"The answer is no, I don't. It would if it were allowed to continue for an inappropriate amount of time, but it won't," Mr Anderson told the Ten Network. Asked if the speculation would be over by Christmas, he said: "Absolutely".
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
QANTASpower
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:23 am

Well thank you Singapore777 and Ejazz for taking an objective view.

It is so obvious that SIA has everything to gain and Qantas everything to lose. As such why would the Australian Govt give this away. I cannot see it happening.

There would be a masive difference in the amount of $$$ SIA generates from Australia to what QF generates from the Singaopre market with the current arrangements let alone under an open skies policy.
 
BD1959
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:01 am

This is all very interesting.....the deal has long been seen as a sweetner should the QF/NZ merger go ahead but until now I couldn't see the connection. The question has been asked too - what would Australia gain out of the granting of such rights.

Just some speculation on my part...could the Australian Government impose route restrictions? How about them insisting that they must stop in NZ on the way to LAX? That would then impose extra competition on the likely trans-Tasman monolith (in addition to EK and DJ) while allowing SQ part of the deal it's seeking.

Any thoughts?

BD1959

 
Oz777
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:46 am

There are a few un-informed comments in this thread.

First of all, Qantas has a substantial complexing arrangement in Singapore, with flights to BKK, HKG and Japan. Just over a year ago the capacity (and uplift) were renegotiated - and QF did some bleating as to some of the restrictions.

The complexing arrangements were established to service the QF traffic out of London / Europe, and of course now also pick up the BA traffic with some 'bleed' from other carriers. For many of the international B767 crews, the SQ 'hub' was a long duty time away from Sydney, with short sectors and not a great deal of rest.

As to SQ operating SYD-LAX. The route authority capacity has mainly gone QF's way, and the only Star Alliance option is one flight on UA. NZ pulled out (one B744 each way), so there is an option for an early morning SYD departure (after the arrival of the o'nite SIN-SYD service) to provide an early arrival into LAX. In the opposite direction, again that arrival could get into SYD mid afternoon, to become part of the evening SQ service to SIN. In theory, SQ would only be picking up the route authority that was allocated to NZ/AN. Nothing much will change, as NZ used to be the major discounter / thrift operator on that city pair as it was.

Expect to see both NZ (and probably UA) code share on that second service. Will then give some flexibility as to Star Alliance schedules.

And if John Anderson gives up politics - expect to see him appear on the Qantas board sooner rather than later.

OZ777
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:55 am

Some quotes posted above:

"Originating traffic in Singapore represents very minor revenue for any overseas Airline such as Qantas."

If that is the case why do so many airlines fly to Singapore from many parts of the world and in many cases, these flights do not continue elsewhere. Many of the European airlines fly 747s and MD-11s into SIN. SIN is one of the busiest Asian routes from Europe. I find it hard to believe that QF does not pick up much traffic on its European routes from SIN - especially when its able to place its code on BA flights at the other end.

"What business do you think Qantas picks up out of Singapore, a small island with a small population."

Yes, but as we all know, SIN has managed to turn itself into quite a success story - turning from an isolated colony with few natural resources into a business centre for the region. Many banks and business have their SE Asian HQs in SIN ensuring a substantial amount of inbound and outbound traffic.

"The net benefit to Australia would be highly negative."

Not sure if it would be highly negative to Australia as a whole. Yes, to Qantas because it would break up a duopoly that it enjoys transpacific. Look at the prices they charge transpacific and compare it to US-HKG fares. Robbery! Perhaps, if QF succeeds in using its govt friends to turn this down, SQ could persuade VS to start the route! Now, that would be interesting.

From a consumer standpoint, it would be a good thing for another carrier to enter the field. Also, a substantial portion of Australia's economy is dependant upon tourism. Bringing more tourists here has got to be a good thing.

Should also note that if SQ is also able to pull it off, it may also be able to code-share with LH on the route to connect the route to Europe.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 1:44 pm

Also, how good can it be for there to be only three non-Qantas-allied flights transpacific to North America from Australia if this alliance goes ahead. Qantas will have its own flights to from BNE (via AKL), AKL, SYD and MEL to LAX and from SYD to HNL in addition to flights on their partners, Air Pacific, Air Niugini and Air New Zealand. The only non-Qantas-allied flights would be on UA and AC - neither of which are financially sound and as a result, their continued activity in Australian market can not be guaranteed.

This is not like the Europe-Australia marketplace which Branson described as a duopoly. The Europe-Australia marketplace has lots of competition; the Australia-North America will not if this alliance goes ahead without another airline entering the fray.

Remember: it's not just the interests of Qantas' shareholders that have to be considered here.
 
wirraway
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 2:23 pm

Singapore_Air

"Deputy Prime Minister and Transport Minister John Anderson is due to meet his counterpart late next month with a deal considered a formality."

Source: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=100822

Wirraway
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:58 pm

Ahh OK WIrraway, that's the same article I've rephrased. Depends on what the formalities within the deal are though.

"Look at the prices they charge transpacific and compare it to US-HKG fares"

Well, the cheapest fare departing 1 February 2004, returning 15 February 2004 is with NZ which we all now know is not non stop at US$841.362. Then KE, PR/NZ, BR, AA/QF via Tokyo, NZ/VN, AC, KE, NZ.

United Airlines comes in at US$1148.37!! AA, QF again, PR, QF at US$1182.05.

HKG - LAX, China Airlines is US$903. CX is US$2131.26. Expedia is going downhill.

Actually, I'm not going to bother anymore because Travelocity is as much ridiculous.

"Look at the prices they charge transpacific and compare it to US-HKG fares"

No thanks! It seems that Expedia and Travelocity are making it a hard time to do that.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:13 pm

Cathay Pacific - $499 from any of their US gateways (JFK, LAX, SFO) to Hong Kong or Manila on their web-site.
http://www.cathay-usa.com/sitedefault.asp

Qantas - $1,015 from LAX to MEL or SYD Australia or bust discounted "special" (my quotations) on their web-site
http://www.qantasusa.com/webDeal.php?ID=83&PHPSESSID=70f0fbe1d999d15e296c1076ab24c48a

The differences between a competitive route and a duopoly!!

 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:15 pm

That's nice. However, what about during Febuary 2004?
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: SIA Wants To Fly SYD - LAX, MEL - AKL - U.S.A.

Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:22 pm

Unlikely that the SYD flight will drop during Feb as that's high season for Australia - it's the end of the summer holidays down here.

HKG can be usually had for around $700 tops from the West Coast on one airline or another. As you know, airlines (including the SQ N. America web seat sales on their SFO-HKG flight) will offer specials on a fairly routine basis.