aussie747
Posts: 1005
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 4:49 pm

This has been discused in previous threads (I think), but with more recent news to add.

It has been noted that Air New Zealand (from Sources within Lauda /Austrian Air and United) has not been turning up to Star Alliance meetings now for several months, is this a precursor to Air NZ joining One World should the QF/NZ alliance proceed?

Interesting news.
 
StarFlyer
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:07 am

RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:42 pm

I think its something like 25mio USD to exit Star Alliance so they had better put good thought into it.
Note also that Air NZ still hasnt painted one of their jets in the Star livery.

However, it is a likely scenario that even if the proposed alliance goes through either of them will remain in their respective alliance. That way they still get the feed from Star Alliance into their (NZ's) network.
Another scenario is that Qantas might just join Star Alliance, this has been discussed extensively and I dont think it is very likely.

Why they dont turn up at meetings, I dont know.
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
TG992
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:36 pm

Air NZ will be painting a 763 in Star livery this year.

Ralph Norris will be surprised to hear NZ hasn't showing up to meetings recently, particularly since he recently attended a Star CEO conference!
-
 
Air Taiwan
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:25 pm

As much as I'd like QF and NZ to remain in their respective alliances, I think what happened to Canadian a few years back will happen to Air NZ. However this all depends on the outcome of the proposed marrage between the two interested parties (like a million other things)

Jimmy
 
v2fix
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:24 am

Air Taiwan - Have to disagree with your analysis.

Canadians demise, sad as it was, left Canada with a single dominant native carrier, Air Canada as well as support from numerous US airlines operating an efficiant hub system. And several new low cost airlines.

Was Canada's GDP hurt significatly by Canadians demise. No.

New Zealand is an isolated, water locked country, whose nearest neighbour (Aus) is over 3 hours flight time away. New Zealands GDP is very exposed to the Tourist trade and the demise of a national carrier will hurt NZ significantly. The NZ government, for the sake of the country, cannot let the national carrier fail. Hence their bail out after the Ansett debarkle. But the ability of the government to continually bail out any airline is limited - they simply do not have the money (or polictical will).

So Air New Zealand needs to find a sustainable home. Hence the proposed tie-up with Qantas.

Also, the transportation infrastructure in New Zealand is at a capable scale for a country of 4 million people. Thus, travelling any distance in any short (and reasonable) period of time requires an airline. This is Air New Zealand core and profitable market - and they must and will defend it to the hilt (lots of press statements about this out all ready).

If Air New Zeland does not tie up with another major airline, to survive it will shrink to a national airline with some limited international service where competiton is minimal and premium prices can be charged.

Sorry if this read like a Ralph Norris (CEO Air New Zealand) press statement, but I happen to believe that the strategy he is trying to get adopted is absolutely 100% correct!



742; 744; DC10, DC3, 321, 320, 319, 170,190, 772, 773,333, 346, 343
 
B-HXB
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 7:11 am

Ummm... wasn't Air Taiwan referring to what happened alliance-wise to Canadian rather than the actual buyout? That's how I read it anyway  Smile

The Star alliance needs Qantas/Air NZ more than QF/NZ need them. Without Air NZ, Star is left high and dry in Oceania as QF and NZ would essentially give oneworld a nice little monopoly in the South Pacific.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 8:30 am

The problem being of course that Oneworld is probably the weakest of all the alliances. Why on earth would Air NZ want to partner with Iberia and Finnair on the European continent, when it has the much stronger partners of Lufthansa, SAS, the Austrian Group and Spanair right now?

Hmmmmm, the government lacks the political will? Perhaps. But seeing as though its investment has tripled in value, the New Zealand public's increased nationalistic tendencies of late and the all round dislike of further key national assets falling into Australian hands, I wouldn't say the government is about to give up on what is now a profitable operation. In fact, it would likely be a more politically risky decision to allow the sale to go through, than pump more money into the airline.

And anyway, talk about a rort! Qantas buys 22.5% stake in the carrier and gets 50% (or even a majority) control. What a joke! How often do we have to be ripped off by self-interested foreign corporates? I think it's time New Zealanders realised how valuable our assets really are.
 
B-HXB
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:58 am

Oneworld is probably the weakest of all the alliances

Oh, I think that honour probably belongs to Skyteam.
 
Air Taiwan
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:25 pm

Oneworld might be weak in many markets, but in the Australasian and the UK market no one can touch them. Thanks B-HXB I was indeed referring to what happend to Canadian alliance-wise. And V2fix I totally agree with your statement about N.Z as a country need AirNZ. But I just think it makes sense for AirNZ to join Oneworld or for Qantas to join Star (unlikely but still, I can dream).

Jimmy
 
JAL
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:50 pm

It's possible, if Qantas is successful in it's bid to form an alliance with ANZ. ANZ could go to OneWorld.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
Guest

RE: How Is United Airlines Doing?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:03 am

The joint AA/Qantas lounge (First/Business/Club) opened at LAX yesterday. With stunning architecture and interior design, it is the best lounge at LAX, easily besting anything United/Star Alliance, Delta/Skyteam, et al. have to offer at LAX.

More to the point, the new lounge further solidifies the cooperative relationship that Qantas and AA have formed over the years. At LAX, AA and Qantas have really tried to function for their common passengers as a single carrier. These two oneworld partners are really trying to set an example for the rest of oneworld. Based on the example that AA and Qantas are setting, it is not unforeseen that in the future we may see joint AA/BA lounges, check-in counters, and gates at LHR's new T5 in the future.

If AA and Qantas had never taken their codeshare relationship to the next step with shared check-in, gate and lounge facilities at LAX, even I would have entertained the possibility of Qantas leaving oneworld. Given the very strong relationship between AA and Qantas, however, it is more than likely now that Air New Zealand's days in Star are numbered.
 
mozart
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:16 am

Would British Airways let QF - in which it has a 25% stake I believe - move to a rival alliance?

Personally I don't think so, but there are funny examples of direct participations tying up with the competition elsewhere: just think of Virgin Atlantic, which is partly owned by SQ, which codeshares with DL rather than with a Star airline (for obvious reasons, this gives DL the access to LHR).
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:06 am

But don't forget that Oneworld is a bit of a joke in Asia, the largest potential market in the forseeable future.

Compare: Oneworld - Cathay Pacific
Star Alliance - Singapore, Thai, ANA, Asiana (& Air China soon)

Don't get me wrong, Cathay is a great carrier. Pity they don't really co-operate with QF or BA. But with no major continental European carrier (from the NZ perspective), pretty poor coverage across Asia and far less co-operation between member airlines when compared to Star, Oneworld just doesn't look like a serious alliance. More of a loose marketing agreement. Is that really worth the NZ$50 million it will cost to leave Star?
 
travel
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:33 am

Can it still be possible for NZ to continue be part of Star Alliance if QF take 25% stake in it?
 
styles
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:54 am

On what routes/flights does DL code share w/VS to LHR? I am aware that CO does codeshare on some of VS's USA to LHR flights, but am not familiar with any such DL codeshares.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:51 am

probably because there arent any  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
B-HXB
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:29 pm

Out of interest, if QF leaves oneworld is there a penalty like the $50m poison pill imposed by Star for defectors? When Canadian pulled out after being bought by Air Canada, did oneworld hit them with a leaving fee?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:51 pm

Back to the original question...

Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

If an equity tie-up between the two largest Australasian carriers were to occur, it would be inevitable for an alliance consolidation to follow.

QF being the larger of the two (potential partners), it would make fiscal sense to go with where the larger commitment already was.

BTW, what benefits have these "new world order" alliances brought to : carriers; passengers; manufacturers; countries and so forth?

Economies of scale were supposed to have precipitated new streamlined booking systems, mass alliance aircraft buying etc. But has any of this happened?

The only benefit I've experienced is "airpoints" accrual on a host of airlines that I may or may not choose to fly with.
come visit the south pacific
 
StarFlyer
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:24 pm

Of course, some of the most obvious benefits of the alliances are Frequent Flyer points earning, redeeming and recognition.
Other things that have happened is joint use of airport facilities, code share agreements, sometimes anti trust immunity, joint fares (eg RTW) and joint marketing efforts.

But you are right, the real economies of scale still have not happened. Will it ever?
Many airlines are reluctant to give up their identity and planning authority, as well as the fact that many governments are unwilling to give their national carrier into foreign hands. This is why at this stage we will only see alliances go to a certain point of co operation.
From then on, anything else would be a M&A transaction and would require one airline to take a significant stake in another one (just what we are seeing now with QF and NZ).

All this alliance business is so interesting...  Smokin cool
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:18 pm

Streamlined and consolidated Res systems have certainly occurred - QF and BA moved their Distribution environment to Amadeus, to have a common RES system with LA,IB,AY. The same carriers will be moving shortly to Amadeus NewGen Inventory and DCS products.

LO moved to Amadeus for the same reason - commonality with other Star carriers ie. LH/BD/OS/NG/VO/SK/TG/JK. A common Star Alliance distribution platform is actively under discussion by the major partners as well.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Beno
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RE: Air NZ To Depart Star Alliance?

Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:26 pm

QF would probably want NZ to stay in Star so they don't both end up competing for the Oneworld passengers. That way NZ keeps all of the Star passengers QF keeps all the Oneworld ones, and they end up codeshare on each others services anyway so its win win.

As for Oneworld vs Star,

Star have many overlap problems that Oneworld don't you just have to look at the disagreements between SQ and TG because they compete on so many routes within Asia. I read a while ago TG even considered leaving Star due to so much competion from SQ. Also look at UA and US Airways who have to share the US market between them meanwhile AA who are in Oneworld get the whole US market to themselves.

Hopefully more members such as Japan Airlines, Swiss, and China Eastern join Oneworld.

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