pouyazad
Posts: 114
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New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:14 am

Hi,
Why do you think new Russian aircrafts such as IL96 and TU204 have no many customers? I think they've proved their good performance.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:21 am

What's the incentive to bother with them when you can buy a A343/772ER and A321/752?

...initial purchase price aint everything  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BAJMowiec
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:30 am

Hey!

Ok, ConcordeBoy, I don't see your point, but I guess I know what you mean. Russian planes are not trusted, underestimated and distrusted for deacades.It's the way it is, Airbus and Boeing are among the trusted brands.It all comes down to safety and quality, as well as a name  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Piotrek
 
polnebmit
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:36 am

I guess it's due to the fact that Russian and ex-Soviet Republic owned airlines have not had a good maintenance program for their aircraft, understaffed or untrained people working for the airline. This has given their whole fleet of AC a tainted name. Still, I trust Boeing AC a whole lot more. I'd think twice before boarding a Russian made AC. Just personal opinion.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:44 am

Ok, ConcordeBoy, I don't see your point,

The point is....
what would compel major airlines who 1) already have extensive Boeing and/or Airbus fleets and 2) are shifting toward fleet commonality to the maximum extent allowed their chosen business model; to purchase Russian aircraft, which would be complete oddballs in their fleet???


The answer: .....nothing!

That's why you dont see CX flying IL96s, or DL flying TU204s, etc
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 5:47 am

....in fact, probably the only airlines you'll EVER see operating those such fleet types are Eastern European, Siberian, airlines of countries under UN sanctions, and possibly new airlines to whom startup startup capital is in extremely short supply.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:01 am

Do you think that the image might change even a bit if Boeing does go ahead in partnership with the RRJ?
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
polnebmit
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:05 am

Why would Boeing shoot itself in the foot doing this? They're already hurting, so why do something to hurt them even more?
 
petertenthije
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 6:27 am

The thee main reasons probably are:

1) shoddy or no customer support. Having a plane is nice, but if you can't get spare parts to repair it....
2) no leasing companies have them in the portfolio. Only very few airlines actually buy their planes.
3) reputation. The new TU-204 and the AN-140 may be very safe, but try explaining that to mom and dad with 3 kids and a Toyota. They don't know. The press will have a field day when, say, BA announces to buy TU-204s.
Attamottamotta!
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 10:47 am

I agree with Petertenthije. Russian aircraft have a bad image in the minds of the public. Imagine if QANTAS got IL-96's instead of 747's, a lot of people would be reluctant to fly on them simply because they are Russian. They might be a great plane, but bad image with the public.
 
broke
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:18 pm

1st: For a long time aircraft designed in the Soviet bloc would not meet either US or European airworthiness standards. The Yak-40 and -42 were the first aircraft to do so.

2nd: Soviet aircraft were not economical or reliable; you could get them cheaply in the past, but the cost of operation was not good.

Currently, the trend of combining Russian airframes with western engines and avionics are making the aircraft more attractive; but they have a considerable headwind to overcome. Most countries who used to rely on Soviet aircraft for their commercial fleets have gone western and so they do not have a base market, even domestically, to start with.
 
aa757first
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:36 pm

I'm thinking along the lines of Positive rate and Petertenthije. The new Russian planes could be indestructible but people would much rather fly on a Boeing or Airbus. I have read stories online of Russians flying on a certain airline just because they have western aircraft.

Cabin of a TU-204 / cabin of a 727-200.

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Photo © William Ronciere
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Photo © Gregg Stansbery



I think they look similar.

Cabin of a TU-134A. I don't know much about Russian aircraft but I think this is an older plane, as all of the inflight photos were taken in the late 80s early 90s.


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Photo © Daniel Frohriep-Ichihara



Does this plane have oxygen masks?
 
nikibary
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Sun Sep 07, 2003 11:46 pm

Aa757first, are youjudging the tu-204 by the type of seats that the airline installed in it??
Also the tu-134 is a vaey old aircraft, im sure most western aircraft in the 60s and 70s didnt look much better, if its the cabin that you're comparing.
 
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Richard28
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Mon Sep 08, 2003 4:28 am

IIRC even Aeroflot has a policy of flying only western jets to western europe.

 
trintocan
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:50 am

That is a complex problem. The old school of prejudices against Russian built planes are proving very hard to overcome so most Western airlines (and many from elsewhere) stay loyal to Boeing and Airbus planes. Even though the newer Russian planes are of better quality and have higher technology than the older ones their engines remain singularly problematic - while the mating of Western engines with Russian frames (as on TU-204) overcomes this somewhat it does not erase the views of Russian planes held by some.

The other part of the equation is that Aeroflot, which is the best-financed Russian carrier, has been introducing many Western planes into its fleet. On the one hand this is to present a more acceptable image to moneyed customers in Western destinations and, on the other, because securing deliveries of Russian planes has been very difficult in recent years. They have only ever received 6 of the 12 IL96-300s they ordered some 15 years ago! Many of the CIS airlines (and virtually all Eastern European ones) have also gone Western in recent years. The many smaller Russian domestic carriers do not have the finance to buy the newer (and thus more expensive) planes so they stay with the old, noisy and smoky types from the 60s and 70s.

For all of those reasons, the new Russian planes have found few buyers. It is a great pity though.

TrintoCan.
Hop to it, fly for life!
 
gigneil
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:52 am

There is also the significant problem of production capacity...

Many of the ex-Soviet manufacturers are having a hard time building and delivering planes, much less spares for them.

At one point the production rate on the IL96 was less than 3 a year...

N
 
kilavoud
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RE: New Russian Aircrafts, Why Nobody Buys Them?

Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:59 am

If I look at the interior of these russian planes, even if I keep a cool head, it makes me feel cold,it sends shivers down my spine. But if the vodka i flowing, maybe I will forget it. Who knows ?