DIA
Topic Author
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"Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:05 am


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As this photographer noted, the departure was "looped."

I've only ever had one departure from San Jose on a CO MD-80. . .and my flight was "looped" too.

What airports in the world require this? Obviously it is so they can get to a certain altitude for various reasons. . .I just wanted to know which airports use this program.

I seem to recall an article on A.net pointing out that heavyweight departures of A340-200s/300s out of Osaka Kansai are "looped" due to the rate of climb for these a/c. Anybody know anything about that.
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HlywdCatft
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:09 am

I think SJC does this because departing aircraft (taking off in northerly direction) if going straight would interfere with aircraft landing at SFO on whatever runway that is that has the planes arrive over the bay from the southeast.

Look on passur.com at the airport monitor for SJC and you will see what I mean.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:11 am

Nice on most eastbound departures heading north, the aircraft will turn sharp right on take off, head out to sea, then loop round and cross the coast between Nice and Antibes heading north. Excellent views of the airport if your on the starboard side.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
desertjets
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:12 am

Las Vegas comes to mind. Pretty much any departure off of the 25s loops around the north of the city... the only exception I believe are straight out western flights. Everything else gets a nice aerial tour of the city.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
potomac
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:23 am

i think you'll find a variety of factors that require these type of departure patterns. most often is air traffic flow - departing aircraft being separated from arriving traffic and then being put into the flow at higher altitudes of aircraft along a particular route. also, this sort of thing happens in airspace that includes multiple airports to keep separation and manage flow. on occasion, there are issues of terrain and noise abatement too.

 
mozart
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:24 am

Lugano
French altiports
Graz for departures heading north

Maybe Cuzco, but don't remember exactly how patterns work there (been only once)

In addition there are some with a "make a detour before you go to your direction" airports:
Lima no direct turn eastwards because of the Andes
Santiago de CHile limited eastwards by Andes as well
Milan Malpensa: I think departures from 35R/35L make big sweeps to gain altitude before crossing the Alps
 
as739x
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:25 am

DesertJets-LAS is more of a normal pattern,Depart 25R then turn crosswind then downwind. The basic flying pattern we learn early in flying.
Hlywdcatft-you are correct with the SJC loop. I don't have my charts, but yes the planes at SJC turn downwind till abeam the field (actually a certain heading of the SJC VOR) then they begin the loop to the north.
I remember leaving EWR for Europe. When you depart to the south from Newark, they do a loop over the airport to climb over the traffic of LGA and JFK.LAX also has turn arounds back over the airport to climb over the BAsin area. In Puerta Vallarta, flight departing for the central part of the counrty depart back over the airport VOR at the airport.
DIA- see if you can get your hands on some old "SIDS" charts (Standard Instrument Departure) or look them up online, you get a real feel for how complex some departures can get, specially in the busy regions.
ASSFO
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
 
potomac
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:31 am

DIA - one example i can speak of for sure is IAD. when departing to the south but heading to a northeast destination, aircraft make a slow right turn after takeoff, coming around about 270 degrees and passing north of the field and then the city. that enables them to head east and join the flow of northeast bound aircraft out of bwi and dca.
 
m717
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:36 am

"see if you can get your hands on some old "SIDS" charts (Standard Instrument Departure)"

Just a nit-picky point...but in the spirit of correctness  Smile/happy/getting dizzy , technically they aren't called SIDs anymore, they are DPs (Departure Procedures), however many people still refer to them as SIDs.
 
DIA
Topic Author
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 12:44 am

Potomac: I think I may have done that IAD departure in an MWE DC-9-10. . .

AS739X: I'm familiar with SIDS charts, yes, they can get very complex indeed. You also pointed out the EWR routing. You are very correct on that one, I completely forgot even though I've watched it many times over. . .thanks.

Everyone else: thanks for the additional info. The SJC routing makes more sense now.

I think the only "looped" routing we've ever had out of Denver was for the Stapleton departures of the Dash-7 trying to cross the Divide (during the winter time), many times they had to fly back east and try to gain the proper altitude again.
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timz
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RE: SJC Departure

Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:19 am

Some people seem to think SJC's departure is just the usual thing, which it isn't. Is there another US departure that turns 360 degrees and passes over the departure airport? (Actually, over the VOR that's across the street from the airport.)

"the planes at SJC turn downwind till abeam the field (actually a certain heading of the SJC VOR) then they begin the loop to the north."

Whenever I've been listening, the departure controller tells the SE-bound pilot to turn right at pilot's discretion to cross the VOR at 12000. There's an altitude restriction (5000?) at the whatever-it-is SJC radial, but IIRC the location for the turn isn't shown on the departure.
 
potomac
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:23 am

i've also departed SLC to the south, making a right 270 degree turn that takes us directly over the airport and to the east. presume that it to clear the mountains and get into flow west/east flow.

 
m717
Posts: 540
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:24 am

" think the only "looped" routing we've ever had out of Denver was for the Stapleton departures of the Dash-7 trying to cross the Divide (during the winter time), many times they had to fly back east and try to gain the proper altitude again."

DIA,

Thanks for the pleasant reminder. I used to "ride the wave" regularly trying to get the Dash up to the MEA to get across the Divide. Still, flying the Dash-7 in Colorado and Alaska was just about the best flying (from a pure flying fun standpoint) that I have ever done.




 
JAFA
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:51 am

This is a very common procedure, it is rountinely done on my flights into LGA, DTW, MCO, etc.
 
timz
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RE: "a Very Common Procedure"

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:09 am

What exactly is done at those airports?
 
mandala499
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RE: "Looped" Departure Airports

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:57 am

Looped departures are normal where I am... CGK

Everything is designed around a runway 25L & R operations.
Arrivals are from a generally north and east... They fly over DKI VOR about 13NM east north east from CGK. When using 25, departures would simply turn right to NW or East South East through a turn either way.

When using 07, all the arrivals will have to make a 40NM downwind from DKI VOR to the north of the airport. So, NW departures would take off from 07L & R turning right to southwest until 6000 feet before turning NW. Sometimes however, Cathay and China Airlines require to turn straight to NE, which causes problems for the ATC. Cathay's equipment (A330/340/777) can be turned to 230 to separate them from the arriving traffic.

China Airlines A300 to Taipei sometimes do it, however, problems arise when the 738 to HKG then onto KHH is delayed. If he's delayed, his departure would be at the beginning of the 3 - 6pm rush of arrivals. The problem is, he's so weight critical that I've heard many times that he cannot do a right turn to 230 from 07L because it would eat too much of his fuel... When that happens, a few times I've heard the flight say to clearance... "OK, we'll wait until there's a gap in arrivals, we just need a 5 minute notice!"... which could mean 1 - 2 hrs wait with the pax on board ready to leave with a ground power cart pumping away...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
EIPremier
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RE: SJC

Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:36 pm

This particular SJC DP is, appropriately enough, called "Loupe One." Departing jet aircraft from 30R/30L maintain runway heading until SJC DME 1.8 mile, at which point they turn right heading 120. Aircraft are supposed to loop around to fly back over the SJC VOR at 12,000 ft. The DP shows an altitude restriction of 5,000 ft as aircraft pass SJC R-47, but whenever I have flown, we haven't leveled off at 5,000 ft but continued to climb, passing through 10,000 ft about four minutes after takeoff.

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