planenutz
Posts: 1156
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:50 am

Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 4:59 am

Today the FAA downgraded both Poland and Bulgaria to Category 2 status, meaning that they don't meet aviation safety standards as set forth by the ICAO.

This will undoubtedly be an embarrasment for LOT, which is trying to join Star Alliance and codeshare with United. Until Poland emerges from Cat. 2, LOT will be unable to deviate from surrent operational patterns (meaning no new routes or flights).

Interestingly, Cape Verde Islands, off the coat of Africa, had their status upgraded to Category 1.

Not all who wander are lost....
 
GoAround
Posts: 590
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 8:59 pm

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:02 am

'off the coat of Africa'  Smile Lol - that'd explain why Africa's so hot!

Don't mean to be harsh, but that's just funny!

GoAround
GoAround
 
Lindy
Posts: 4722
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 10:42 pm

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:05 am

It happened almost a month ago but was officialy relised couple of days ago.

Rafal

BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
Jaws707
Posts: 667
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:45 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:18 am

Thats kind of interesting. I would never have guessed that would happen to Poland now, especially that they have a modern airport in Warsaw and it is currently undergoing an expansion. Also LOT has a pretty modern fleet.
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:51 am

Anyone know what caused this?
Meh, I'm flying CSA Czech Airlines into Prague next time anyway.


EmiratesA345  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:54 am

Sad to hear it, but not surprised.

The US is freaky over safety standards now, but they should care more about themselves.

What about the passenger lists issue with the EU?
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:34 am

Seems that guys who took that decision had no idea what's going on in Poland. Did they know where it is at all?

I wonder if there is any known explanation or reasons that influenced that decision? Acctually nothing happened in recent years apart from modernisation of airports and ATC stations so it really sounds ridiculous.

.
 
ben
Posts: 1369
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 1999 9:27 pm

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:42 am

Uh.. that is absolutely ridiculous.

I havent heard of any Balkan Tu-154s being driven into buildings in downtown Sofia (or Warsaw) ... or Hemus Yak-40s crashing into the Black Sea because someone was too tight-fisted to replace the elevator jackscrew.

Anyway, what does it mean if these countries are 'downgraded' ?? Just that the US Navy is no longer allowed to send their personnel on aircraft registered LZ- or SP- ?? So cry me a river....
 
User avatar
airzim
Posts: 1226
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:45 am

Before you guys start jumping to conclusions about why the US made this determination. I pulled this directly off the FAA website in two minutes. Read the first two paragraphs closely. I think that answers all your questions.

The assessments are not an indication
of whether individual foreign carriers
are safe or unsafe. Rather, they
determine whether or not foreign civil
aviation authorities (CAA) are meeting
ICAO safety standards, not FAA
regulations.

Countries with air carriers that fly to
the United States must adhere to the
safety standards of ICAO, the United
Nations’ technical agency for aviation
that establishes international
standards and recommended practices for
aircraft operations and maintenance.

The FAA, with the cooperation of the
host civil aviation authority, assesses
countries with airlines that have
operating rights to or from the United
States or have requested such rights.

Specifically, the FAA determines
whether a foreign civil aviation
authority has an adequate
infrastructure for international
aviation safety oversight as defined by
ICAO
standards. The basic elements that the
FAA considers necessary include: 1)
laws
enabling the appropriate government
office to adopt regulations necessary
to meet the
minimum requirements of ICAO; 2)
current regulations that meet those
requirements; 3) procedures to carry
out the regulatory requirements; 4) air
carrier certification, routine
inspection, and surveillance programs,
and 5) organizational and personnel
resources to implement and enforce the
above.

The FAA has established two ratings for
the status of these civil aviation
authorities at the time of the
assessment: (1) does comply with ICAO
standards, (2) does not comply with
ICAO standards.

· Category 1. Does Comply with
ICAO Standards: A civil aviation
authority has been assessed by FAA
inspectors and has been found to
license and oversee air carriers in
accordance with ICAO aviation safety
standards.

· Category 2. Does Not Comply
with ICAO Standards: The FAA assessed
this country’s CAA and determined that
it does not provide safety oversight of
its air carrier operators in accordance
with the minimum safety oversight
standards established by ICAO. This
rating is applied if one or more of the
following deficiencies are identified:
(1) the country lacks laws or
regulations necessary to support the
certification and oversight of air
carriers in accordance with minimum
international standards; (2) the CAA
lacks the technical expertise,
resources, and organization to license
or oversee air carrier operations; (3)
the CAA does not have adequately
trained and qualified technical
personnel; (4) the CAA does not provide
adequate inspector guidance to ensure
enforcement of, and compliance with,
minimum international standards; and
(5) the CAA has insufficient
documentation and records of
certification and inadequate continuing
oversight and surveillance of air
carrier operations. This category
consists of two groups of countries.

· One group is countries that
have air carriers with existing
operations to the United States at the
time of the assessment. While in
Category 2 status, carriers from these
countries will be permitted to continue
operations at current levels under
heightened FAA surveillance. Expansion
or changes in services to the United
States by such carriers are not
permitted while in Category 2, although
new services will be permitted if
operated using aircraft wet-leased from
a duly authorized and properly
supervised U.S. carrier or a foreign
air carrier from a Category 1 country
that is authorized to serve the United
States using its own aircraft.

· The second group is countries
that do not have air carriers with
existing operations to the United
States at the time of the assessment.
Carriers from these countries will not
be permitted to commence service to the
United States while in Category 2
status, although they may conduct
services if operated using aircraft wet-
leased from a duly authorized and
properly supervised U.S. carrier or a
foreign air carrier from a Category 1
country that is authorized to serve the
United States with its own aircraft. No
other difference is made between these
two groups of countries while in
Category 2.

The FAA has assisted civil aviation
authorities with less than acceptable
ratings by providing technical
expertise, assistance with inspections,
and training courses. The FAA hopes to
work with other countries through ICAO
to address non-compliance with
international aviation safety oversight
standards.

The FAA will continue to release the
results of safety assessments to the
public as they are completed. First
announced in September 1994, the
ratings are part of an ongoing FAA
program to assess all countries with
air carriers that operate to the United
States.


[Edited 2003-09-12 00:46:40]

[Edited 2003-09-12 00:47:29]
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:52 am

I would like to hear justification - what exactly they do not comply with???
 
Guest

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:02 am

Is LOT planning to buy Airbus or Boeing...?
xxx
That happened recently to Argentina... Category 2...
FYI - if we buy Boeing - we may be considered to go back to Category 1...
If we buy Airbus, we might stay for awhile as Category 2...
Politics... Got it...?
Our minister Lavagna deals with this matter with the US right now...
xxx
If you dont believe the dirty side of the business, as I am a former pilot from Panam and American-born, I represent my flight operations department with our dealings with FAA and know inspectors assigned to our case personally.
This is what they told me, "off the record", over a beer, not in their office...
xxx
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:14 am

Actually there is signed agreement between the countries that guaranteed LOT rights to open new routes to the USA. This would be violated in this case - however I don't think LOT plans any new routes at this time. Possibly KIAD in a year or two as a result of being part of STAR.

B747Skipper - our 767s are in need of replacement...

 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:20 am

 Acting devilish
Since when are they so concerned about standards set by an organisation not based in the US?

What do they know about what's going on in the Polish CAA?

How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
ArgInMIA
Posts: 475
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2001 4:07 pm

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 3:15 pm

B747Skipper, how are things going to go back to CAT1? is lavagna really talking about that? I guess that since we came to an agreement with IMF they will take us back to cat1? hehe who knows.. maybe LAFSA is going to buy Boeing.. I really dont think that such a small order from Aerolineas would mean going to Cat2...
Alto.. Mucho mas alto.. hasta la cumbre
 
JMChladek
Posts: 320
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:05 pm

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 5:08 pm

Since when are they so concerned about standards set by an organization not based in the US?

What do they know about what's going on in the Polish CAA?


They probably know a lot more about Polish CAA then you think or else the Cat 2 downgrade probably wouldn't have occurred. As for their concern, there are implications if an aircraft registered by a foreign CAA crashes on US soil and concerns involving U.S. citizens traveling on aircraft under different CAA registry. The FAA is essentially an inspector in this case and if something like a crash did occur because another country's CAA didn't properly police the airline within their jurisdiction, then its a big legal mess. Granted we are talking about very slim chances of problems here. But, they are concerns and the ICAO is basically the rulebook that EVERYONE has to follow. Besides, I have a feeling that the FAA isn't the only inspector, but other CAAs might do similar checks on CAAs that oversee airlines that send flights within their borders.

As for the Boeing vs Airbus argument, if I read this right that won't have any bearing since its the CAA that needs to shape up, not the airline necessarily.
 
godbless
Posts: 2680
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 7:15 pm

Is South Korea actually back to CAT1?
Wasn't there the issue that KE could not codeshare with Sky-partner DL?

Max
 
emiratesa345
Posts: 2044
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 10:11 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 8:08 pm

If it is political, which I don't doubt, then I must say I find this funny. Poland was expecting some in "return" for their assistance in the recent war. This is what they get. Surprise, surprise!

EmiratesA345  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
You and I were meant to fly, Air Canada!
 
codeshare
Posts: 1689
Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2002 2:23 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Fri Sep 12, 2003 9:17 pm

According to today's newspapers, the downgrade is abased on a JANUARY report. From that time on there have been changes, substantial in fact.

So...
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
planenutz
Posts: 1156
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:50 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Sat Sep 13, 2003 12:03 am

The FAA mayu have delayed its press release so that Poland could upgrade its aviation infrastructure before the issue was made public.

Also, I thought it kind of wierd as well. Poland was offered all kinds of assistance for their support and troop deployments to Iraq. Strange tha tha tthe US federal govt would diss them like that.



Not all who wander are lost....
 
KUGN
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2000 4:36 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:33 am

Well, maybe they have really good reason. Once in a while even FAA has to do its job, right?
 
bobrayner
Posts: 2038
Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2003 8:03 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Sat Sep 13, 2003 4:57 am

I'd rather not speculate much yet!

Yes, it would be tempting to say that the FAA is making another political move, but I thought Poland was earning brownie points recently... so we're back to Occam's Razor. They're probably just doing their job. When/where can we learn more? I didn't see much on the FAA site, no more detail in any press releases...
Cunning linguist
 
SPLOBKrakow
Posts: 105
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:41 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:10 am

This has to have been a political moveby the US . Over the past 15 years Lot has been upgrading it's aircraf, maintnace facilities and airports. Their safety regulations are also very strict. The aircraft that LOT operates are still fairly new and there is no need to replace them. Another important fact is that Polish pilots are very well trained. As you can read on LOT's website, all of their pilots have a very wide range of experiance, and they have been recodnized for their skills.

I have flown with LOT on numerous occasions, on both international and domestic flights. This downgrade will definatelly change my opinion of LOT and Polish Aviation rules and regulation.
 
ILoveORD
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:20 am

RE: Poland Downgraded To Cat. 2 By FAA

Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:19 am

Wow, this is kind of saddening AND surprising. I've flown to Poland (never directly from the U.S. though) and around Europe on LOT from various European cities in the past and I always that the airports and aircraft looked fairly well-maintained and modern. Furthermore, it seems hard to believe that UAL and Star Alliance could have overlooked something like this if it was known since January? Does anyone how long Poland will be listed as Cat. 2?

[Edited 2003-09-14 23:23:03]
Backhanding the left into submission, one activist judge at a time.

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