727LOVER
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Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:23 am

What is the seating gap between A321 and A330-200? Is there room for a new aircraft from Airbus??? Are they looking into it?  Confused
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
planesarecool
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:29 am

A300 and A310 Big grin

I was wondering that too - maybe an A322 or an A329. It would probably be a larger A321 or a smaller A330 though as i doubt they'll be worrying about that just yet with the latest aircraft in production (A380, A340-600/500's etc)

-Stephen
 
dutchjet
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:44 am

There is a gap in the Airbus lineup between the A321 and A332 in the current Airbus lineup, and Airbus has looked at ways to plug the gap but without success: various versions of an A330-100 have been proposed involving further shrinking the A330, mating the A332 with the wings of the A300, updating the A300 with new features such as the "common-cockpit", but no airline ordered. LH (to replace A300/310s) and SQ (to replace A310s) were the prime launch targets, but nothing ever materialized. I also believe that a further strech of the A321 wsa briefly looked at. Its interesting that the two original Airbus products, the A300 and A310, do sit between the A321 and A332 as far as size and range, but these types are no longer actively marketed by Airbus (except for the freighters), although Airbus can deliver and A300 pax or A310 to an airline if an order was placed.

Due to the gap in the line-up, Airbus does not have a direct competitor to the 757 or 763, but Boeing is having a very hard time at the moment selling these types so, I assume that a new 200-250 seat medium range airliner is not a priority for Airbus at the moment. The market really seems to have broken down into regional jets for low capacity routes, 737/A32X size aircraft for short/medium haul routes and LCCs and A332/777 and larger aircraft for longer range operations.

The 7e7 may change all of that, time will tell.
 
StarFlyer
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:46 am

A lot of their resources are tied down with the A380 project-as a result, they cant really start a new project until the A380 line is up and running.

I am wondering, if you fitted the A300 with a new cockpit and fly by wire, would that make it a well selling aircraft once again? I doubt you can stretch the A320 more than the A321-you'd have to go twin aisle but the A329 would be too much of a plane.
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
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Richard28
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 2:58 am

Perhaps an A7E7!
 Big grin
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:10 am

It's where the 330-500 would have filled the slot...were it not for it's less than sparkling seat mile costs due to heavy wing....

There was only moderate interest in ther -500.
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:15 am

I am wondering, if you fitted the A300 with a new cockpit and fly by wire, would that make it a well selling aircraft once again?

Yes, if you also fitted it with brand new wings, brand new engines, and constructed it with an advanced process from advanced materials.

If you just took the existing plane and bolted on some new pieces, then probably not - although that did work well for Boeing and the 737.

N
 
mf3864
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:19 am

would it be "low hanging fruit" for Airbus? buyback A300's and A310's, retrofit them with the new cockpit/controls. fresh engines, etc... Voila! new A300/310. Like Boeing is doing with the DC10's, buying them back, rehab and voila! they become MD10's...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

 
FlySSC
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:24 am

THAT is an interesting question....

YES, there is a gap between the A321 and the A332. But the real question is : Do the market and Airlines NEED today such a type of aircraft ?
Would this "A322" or "A329" be a "bigger" short/medium-range a/c or a "smaller" long-range a/c ?

The policy of most of the biggest airlines is to add frequencies, rather than using big planes, to better "feed" their hub and offer the shortest connections time. The A321 is big enough for this market.

As a long-range airliner the A332 has a quite small capacity ( 211 for Air France : 6P/42J/163Y ) and a lot of airlines are already using it as a replacement of their old A310/A300 or 767 : AF, EK, USairways, MEA, NW, LH etc...

The 757 was the one that would "fill" the gap, and the big fall of the orders of this type of aircraft is significant of the need of regular big airlines today...( BA for example is selling its B757 and is progressively retiring its B767 from its Short/medium haul network...their biggest a/c on this sector will soon be the...A321 )

The 7E7 will be THE "new" 767, and THE direct competitor of the A332... if it flies one day and doesn't follow the career of the Sonic Cruiser.
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:26 am

It actually worked very well for Boeing since the 738 is cheaper to maintain and operate than the 320!

Airbus will have a response to the 7e7 and a replacement for the 300/310 in due time. I imagine a lot of talent is being spent getting the 380 back on track (and at least 8,000lbs lighter!).
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 3:43 am

It actually worked very well for Boeing since the 738 is cheaper to maintain and operate than the 320!

Blah... the only source people have for that is that article that quotes jetBlue employees saying that maintaining the A320 requires a high level of proficiency and that the aircraft experiences spurious faults - all of which Airbus has resolved.

There's no evidence that the A320 is more expensive to operate, in fact, jetBlue has maintained a very low CASM down in the range of Southwest's.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 6:48 am

This segment is hard to fill with one type. At the lower end (180-200 seats), the most efficient platform is a narrowbody (757, 321). At the upper end (~250 seats), it's a wide body (767, A300, A310, 7E7, 332). Boeing & Airbus are both having *problems* addressing this segment.....they are atacking it from above and below. The 7E7 will not address the need for a 757 replacement though.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:18 am

I shouldn't wonder if the Toulouse guys know what they are doing. The 737 and 320 families seem to be perfectly sized for most continental flights on all major continents - pax wanting more frequencies rather than larger planes and more time consuming boarding and deboarding.

On intercontinental flights, however, larger planes have obvious advantages.

Have a look at the poor sales of the 757. It would be really stupid for Airbus to produce a direct competitor to a plane which doesn't sell.

Look at what the competitor can sell: He sells to 80-90% his 737s and 777s. Airbus seems perfectly well positioned for the competition with its 320 and 330/340 families.

Airbus may have heard a lot from potential customers about their 300 and 310 planes which, if brushed up a little, would be direct competitors to the very poor seelling 757s and low end 767s.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:58 am

A further shrink of the A330 makes no sense, it wouldn't be economical. However, a stretch of the A321 (A322?) with higher MTOW, added fuel capacity and extended wingtips would be a perfect 757 competitor, if indeed there was a market for one. Obviously there isn't. In any case, Airbus's priority after the A380 is to develop a 7E7 competitor, something more than just a tweaked A330-200, as excellent as that airplane may be for now. That's where the real market will be.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-2

Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:01 am

Airbus has always said, there wasn't a big enough market to design an all new airplane to replace A300/310s (even before Boeing announced the 7E7 project).

I think they will try to consolidate, focus on the A400m and eventually introduce a new 2nd generation A320 line with new (=easier to maintain) composites and - maybe, just maybe - a new wing. AFAIK the composites used for A320s are still first generation composites.
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Noise
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:12 am

I always wished Airbus would come out the an "A325", something rather small(bit bigger than an A321) that is meant for thin long-haul/trans-atlantic flights. That would be ideal for large European Airports that are lacking flights to medium sized North American Airports, or it can work the other way around.

I'm not suggesting that they stretch the A321 even further, I'd like to see them come up with something new!

Also it can work great for very busy domestic routes.

[Edited 2003-09-16 02:12:35]
 
codc10
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:28 am

As of late, 757 sales have been sluggish, but I'd be very reluctant to call it a poor seller, with about as many examples in service as the A320 (not the whole family, just the A320 itself). Fact is, there's enough aircraft in the current fleet today to handle the 170-200 seat market, and the clear market leader in that category is the 757, one of the most capable airframes ever built.
 
Greg
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:50 am

No, not true Gigneil. I show both GECAS and ILFC operating data put the A32X as being more costly than the 73NG's in DOC and maintenance.

It would be easy to refute, but Airbus uses this same data to show that the 332 is cheaper to operate than the 764. And that the 333 is more efficient than the 772 (under 4000miles).

I doubt one set of stats is right, but the other wrong.....

Neither show cost of ownership which can account for 30% or more of cost. Clearly Airbus has the edge in that area.
 
senorbob
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:08 pm

I think if you look at the high density/charter capacities of the aircraft then that does highlight the gap. A321 up to 220y, A332 up to 380y (approx).

As an example, apparently Tui is looking to acquire a common fleet, and they have a number of 762s, 763s and A310s to replace which are fitted with between 270 and 320 high density seats. Routes that can support 300 seats a week will struggle when capacity is 380. Airbus simply does not have an aircraft that can meet this requirement.

The main question is how large is the market for an aircraft of this size? Perhaps an A300NG could be relatively cheap answer for Airbus, but would this satify the airlines?
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Airbus, Room For A Plane Between A321 & A330-200?

Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:27 pm


What about the possibility of an A320/321 sized aircraft doing 7-14 hour flights? This 150-180 seater A32X-LR could be the ultimate hub-breaker, enabling point-point services on less dense routes. I am thinking (say) AMD/BLR/COK/CCU-LHR, UK-Middle East/Africa, Canada-India etc.

Narrowbody comfort etc is an issue, but if 757/321 tyope aircraft can go transatlantic then this shouldnt be a problem especially if the aircraft are more generously configured with say 34" in economy. The A321 should be able to carry 150 pax in a long haul configuration, while the A320 could carry 120 pax in such a config.

Airbus would have to work on increasing fuel capacity and improving fuel burn etc to push the range in the 12000 km range. Would the economics work out?

I think Airbus could consider this instead of further stretching the 321 like Boeing did with the 757-300.

-Roy


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