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Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:43 am

AC_A340 are under the ridiculous impression that Airbus invented the first FBW system. Somebody prove them wrong with facts please.
 
mirage
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:46 am

Between Boeing and Airbus, I think Airbus introduce it first but I'm not sure about this so I'll wait for other replies.

But I think it was General Dynamics with the F-16's   (again not sure about it)
 
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American 767
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:50 am

In the world of civil aviation, I think Airbus was the first to introduce it with the A320 back in 1987. The A320 was the first civil aircraft to be equiped with FBW systems, followed by the A330 and A340. Boeing intruduced it much more recently on the 777.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
pandora
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The Real Answear

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:52 am

I was approached the same question by an Ansett Australia 767 engineer. I answered "it's A320" and he said wrong!!

He said that the Boeing 767-200 is actually the first FBW airliner, well, not all controls, but only the spoilers are controlled by FBW. So i guess the honor of "the first FBW airliner" goes to Boeing!
 
jlb
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:52 am

I'm not shure, but I think the Concorde has fly by wire. If that's right then it might be the first civil airliner with FBW. Concorde was build by two of the later partners in Airbus. Boeing definitely wasn't first. Their first FBW was the 777. They were even beaten in this race (which was not much of a race anyway) by the Russians (IL96 and TU204)
 
Guest

RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:55 am

Airbus did not, as you suspected, invent fly-by-wire. However, neither was it a Boeing invention (or McDonnell Douglas for that matter...)

As far as I am aware, the first civilian application of a system resembling fly-by-wire is on the BAe / Aerospatiale Concorde. However, it was not a computer controlled Fly-By-Wire system - it was called 'Analog Fly-By-Wire' and basically dynamos on the control column created power / signals and sent it to motors down a wire to motors controlling the elevons etc. - there is no hydraulic control between the yoke and the elevons etc.
This is partly because once the aircraft passes Mach 1, the effects of the control surfaces is reversed (for reasons that I have never understood...) Hydraulics would not do to the control surfaces as they couldn't take this into account.

So the answer is that it was the Concorde that first used FBY for a civilian application.



DLMD-11
 
wingman
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 10:04 am

To answer the original question, FBW was invented by NASA in the early 60's and first used it on the Lunar Lander in 1969. The last time we discussed this, a Canadian? in the Forum disputed this and said it was first used in Canada in the late 50's. My information comes from a Discovery special on the Moon landing.
 
D L X
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Say What?! (Concorde)

Tue Dec 28, 1999 10:57 am

Are you saying that beyond mach 1, elevators going down makes the nose go up, etc.? Wow! You learn something everyday. I took an acoustics class recently and I know things get all muffed up when v>c, but I wouldn't have expected that.

 
Panman
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:15 am

To answer your question DLX what I think DKMD-11 is referring to is the venturi effect. This basically states with subsonic airflow, air in a converging duct has a gain in velocity and temperature and a drop in pressure (the upper surface of a wing is viewed as the lower portion of a converging duct).

In supersonic airflow though the reverse happens i.e. the velocity and temperature drop and the pressure increases. Thus controls would be working back to front. I can go into more detail if required but just wanted to keep it more simple than some of my more recent posts.

Panman
 
D L X
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Venturi Effect

Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:32 am

So, i don't quite get it. If the pressure on top of the wing increases, how does the plane stay in the air? Since lift is generated by having lower pressure above than below the wing.
 
DeltaAir
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:53 am

The L-1011 was built with 2 types of flight decks, an analog which is the one it was built with and a digital FBW one. The FBW seemed to expensive at the time and was later dropped due to the fact that Lockheed was already behind on the project.
 
TWA717_200
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 2:36 pm

Just my 2 cents...As far as I know, the first practical application of FBW was in a F8 Crusader. This was a prototype system and the '8 was a flying testbed.
 
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The Answer

Tue Dec 28, 1999 2:50 pm

The first FBW system can be debated forever here. Needless to say that FBW was pretty old technology by the time both Airbus and Boeing began using it! The next big step will be who is first to use "Fly by Light" in an airliner. Fiber Optic FBW systems are a lot better than what we have today and will last much longer without the wiring problems that our current older aircraft are having.
 
Panman
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Re:D L X (Re: Venturi)

Tue Dec 28, 1999 4:24 pm

Supersonic aircraft have a different shaped wing to the conventional wing. I'm not sure about Concorde but a lot of military aircraft have a wedg shaped wing because this gives best lift capabilities and minimal airflow seperation at supersonic speeds. I am not sure but i believe the leading edge of concorde can be changed to give it the best airflow characteristics for supersonic flight.

Besides that it's all a case of aircraft trim and fuel management that keeps the aircraft in the air.
 
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F-WWKH
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Dec 28, 1999 9:57 pm

Intersting topic as I just read in another post that you are 'tired of these Airbus vs Boeing posts'......
 
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed Dec 29, 1999 1:40 am

The entire point of this post was to prove that neither Airbus or Boeing "invented" FBW per se and with regard to who employed it first I would only say who gives a rat's arse.

 
Guest

Concorde

Wed Dec 29, 1999 2:31 am

Concorde, designed by BAe/Aerospatiale was the first FBW airliner. As described above by DLMD-11, it was an anaolg FBW not digital.

So, This is definately NOT an Airbus v Boeing debate, and yes I'm fed up of people saying Boeing make junk, Airbus are great or vice versa. Can't we agree both companies are different, and both produce excellent families of airliners, which appeal to different people/airlines?

 
Das Flugzeug
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Supersonic Flight

Wed Dec 29, 1999 2:52 am

It seems previous posts imply that supersonic (Concorde) flight necessitates FBW because the control surfaces are reversed and a hydraulic system cannot account for that. My question is, if this is true, how did supersonic jets of the 50's and 60's (F-105 starfighter, F-4, etc) get by flying with full hydraulic systems?
 
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ravi
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed Dec 29, 1999 9:44 am

Is the world so hard-up for a debate that FBW has become the end-all and be-all of technological leaps?

Aft-loaded airfoil designs, personal televisions, glass cockpits and improved engine efficiencies have all had a much larger impact on the commercial aviation industry. The use of FBW is important, but not the MOST important. I've often read posts by people who think that just because the A320 has FBW that it is more technologically advanced than the B737NG. This just isn't the case. And, besides, of 20 airlines that voted for the B737NG to have FBW or not, incredibly 20 said they DIDN'T want FBW.

If anyone wants to debate technology levels then I'm quite prepared to do so.
 
aca320
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed Dec 29, 1999 10:53 am

agreed that there are alot of technical advances that have allowed us to develop the aerospace business what is today everything from high bypass engines which facilited the widebody to the growth of electronic control systems such as fbw and there are things like blended wing designs which have no seperate flight controls the wing is constructed from an elastic type material which allows the entire wing to change shape this coupled with fbw is where we are headed make no mistake there will more electronics not less. As for who was first its simple the f16 f18 f15 f14 were the development beds for fbw as we now know it the same goes for propulsion systems navigation gps inertial nav etc thats where the bucks are and the risk takers that validate this systems end of story.
 
AC_A340
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed Dec 29, 1999 12:35 pm

I was referring to the first company that put it in an entire aircraft. Of course it was civil aviation. It looks like we all learned something new.
 
Das Flugzeug
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Ravi & Aca320

Wed Dec 29, 1999 1:37 pm

Ravi,

First of all, chill out, the post simply asked who invented FBW, and did not state that it was the most significant devolopment in aviation. You blew it way out of proportion.

Aca320, to my knowledge, of the various fighter planes that you mentioned, only the f - 16 uses FBW. The F -14 and 15 were developed years before the 16, and used standard hydraulics.

In any case, no one has yet answered my question posed earlier on this thread. I would really like to know the answer.

Thanks, DF
 
megatop
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Wed Dec 29, 1999 4:53 pm

The fbw is much older. Yesterday I saw a television program, "First Flight". The host was Neil Amstrong, and he told that the Apollo spacecraft from late 60's and early 70's used fbw.

But in commercial aircraft the first to use it was Airbus in the A320.

Happy new year.
 
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ravi
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To: Das Flugzeug

Wed Dec 29, 1999 5:36 pm

You, my friend, need to read the posts previous to mine.

There is such thing as "context". It is context which you have ignored. It is also unwise to make posts personal.
 
Das Flugzeug
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Ravi

Thu Dec 30, 1999 2:47 am

Sorry but I did not realize the "context" of the messages you were replying to. I thought I had read them all previously, but I guess not. They didn't have the nifty little yellow "new" next to them.

 
Guest

RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Thu Dec 30, 1999 7:03 am

It was the Concorde first and then the US Air Force's F-16 Fighting Falcon & US Navy's F-18 Hornet that had the FBW systems first.
 
akelley728
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RE: Who Invented FBW: Boeing Or Airbus?

Tue Jan 04, 2000 3:59 am

On 737ng aircraft, does Boeing give an option for FBW?
 
AC183
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RE: The Real Answear

Tue Jan 04, 2000 5:05 am

I haven't looked through every one of the answers here yet, but I can tell you FBW goes back a lot further than Airbus, and back to before Boeing ever would have used it. It seems to me that in the military world that the Avro Arrow supersonic fighter used FBW way back in 1957! That would probably not even have been the very first aircraft to use it, but it was one of the pioneers of the system.

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