thaigold
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Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:32 pm

I am just like all of you very interested in all new planes also the 7e7 - and must admit that it is a very good looking plane (well at least the drawings until now).

However wouldn't it be better for Boeing to spend the billions of dollars just improving the current range of planes?

New more fuel efficient engines
Better aerodynamic - perhaps achieved by small modifications of current designs/wings
New different sizes of the existing models - 767-100/500, 737-1000, 757-250 etc.
Updating cockpits and cabins
etc. etc.

I would think that the time for spending that amount of dollars is not really right for a company that is not making big money.....

I would be interested to hear what you think
Dunbar Rovers forever
 
PVD757
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:38 pm

Isn't that what McDonnell Douglas did? Oh that's right, they went out of business.....
 
irishpower
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:43 pm

You make a good point.
The problem is that the 767,757 are old designs and have at best mid 1980's technology (except for the 764). Boeing needs an aircraft that can replace these jets because there are going to be a heck of a lot of airlines that will need to replace these aircraft around the 2007-2012 time frame. You can only do so much with the existing designs. Not to mention Boeing needs to streamline it products and the 7e7 gives it a great jump start in that direction. While Airbus is focusing on the large a/c market with the a380, Boeing will be focusing it's attention to the midsize aircraft market. Airbus has even said that there will be a huge demand for a new mid sized airliner in the next 5-10 years.

 
thaigold
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:43 pm

Well maybe they will go out of business if the plane is a failure.....
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PVD757
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:49 pm

If they bring a good aircraft to the market, it will save the company. Not building it will cede more ground to the competition and give Airbus time to bring their product to market. What do you think Airbus will design after the A380, a better hotdog?
 
thaigold
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:05 pm

PVD757

A better hotdog would be nice - but I'm not sure if Airbus can even afford that for the next many years. The 380 is going to cost them too much money.... I believe that Airbus is/could be struggling financially with the 380 and that Boeing will have a lot of time to "upgrade" the current range and when times get better restart the 7e7.

But maybe I'm wrong and your are right??
Dunbar Rovers forever
 
PVD757
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:11 pm

Either way, Boeing needs to address the situation. Their current versions are not selling anymore. I just think that if they can start fresh, it will help enhance other lines, especially what they decide to do to replace the 737. By making a leap in technology instead of just tweaking current models, they save themselves from having to do the leap later. Sooner or later they will have to do what Airbus is going through with the A380. New technology to help fuel future grwoth.
 
vanguard737
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 2:39 pm

I hate to break this chain of depression/scepticism about Boeing, but your getting ahead of yourselves!! Many of you are talking about replacing the 737, dedspite the fact that the new gerneration just started! Yes, the design goes way back, but if its broke, dont fix it! The 757 is a great plane and the -300 is brand new! Relax! The 767 is economical, modern, and cost effective, so why would an airline dump it just because "well were sick of seeing the same plane all the time, we demand something brand new even though our current planes perform outstandingly and will fr years to come" Its not the end of the world Smile/happy/getting dizzy
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irishpower
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:07 pm

Airlines will need to replace their 757 and 767's because by the time the 7e7 is rolling off the line some of the older planes will be pushing 30 years in age. Old planes can cost an airline dearly--remember what happened to Pan Am.
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:37 pm

Of course we need the B7e7!!!

It can replace A300/310, B767 and by that time possibly older A332s!
 
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American 767
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:37 pm

I'm convinced the airlines will need it. It's the airplane of the future. It will be the 767 and A310 replacement by the time it enters service in the late 2000's. The 767-200 aircraft is now 20 years old, the technology involved dates from the 1980's, and will be over 25 years old when the first 7E7 enters service. The 7E7 is Boeing's future in the airliner business, if Boeing shelves the project then it will loose the market share it has in the commercial airplane business and will have lost a significant amount of money spent for the project. It abandoned already the Sonic Cruiser and 747-500/600 projects already. Giving up working on the 7E7 would not be a good idea.

"Well we're sick of seeing the same airplanes all the time", I don't agree. It's always a pleasure to see them. I can see the same Boeing 767 aircrafts everyday for years and I will never get tired of them. Never. I'll never get tired of flying on an American Airlines 767. Never. I said the 767 was getting old, I was more specifically talking about the older 200. It is getting old but not close yet to retirement. The 300ER, which I like a lot, is still very young, those will be seen at the majors for years to come, I would say until at least for another fifteen years. The last 300ER won't be retired before 2020. American and Delta operate them in large numbers.

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Alessandro
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:58 pm

What about fuel cost isn´t the 7E7 meant to be much more fuel efficent?
I think the 767/737/717 are old designs and need to be replaced...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:04 pm

Considering the technology advances since the 757/767 were put together, the answer is most definately yes. We have RJs coming out this year that have more advanced avionics.
 
thaigold
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:12 pm

Maybe I am missing something - but I still have not yet seen an answer for why Boeing can't use these technology advances to improve the current range?!

New engines could definitely make the planes more fuel efficient, improved wing designs could help etc.

They could even make the cockpits similar so less training was necessary....

What is the obsession with a brand new plane - apart from the good looks??  Big grin
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caetravlr
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:41 pm

Apparently some of you have not read Boeing's press releases very carefully. I now it is all Boeing marketing spin, but they do give some insight as to other advantages, both to Boeing, and the airlines of this new aircraft. Without going back and digging up and referencing the press releases I remember a few things off the top of my head.

For one, Boeing is working on it's manufacturing techniques and processes to greatly reduce the cost of producing the airplane.

I believe they have plans to make these cockpits common with the 777 cockpit, which means they are working on an airplane family similar to what Airbus has done. Hey, I know all of you will say that Boeing is behind Airbus here, but on Airbuses earlier models they copied a lot of things that Boeing pioneered. It is always a good idea to borrow your competition's best practices.

I think they also said something about increasing the amount of composites used, or developing a new composite, that will reduce the number of heavy checks that have to be done on the aircraft. These types of things decrease maintenance costs for the airlines, as well as increasing the lifespan of the airplane.

There are many others mentioned, but it is definitely a step in the right direction for Boeing.

Don't quote me on any of the technical stuff, I am sure I misstated something, but you get the idea, its more than just looks.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Matt D
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:03 pm

Folks, you can only reinvent the wheel so many times, or only make it so round. As far as basic aerodynamics go, airplanes have probably gotten about as good as they're going to get. Now the focus is going to be on avionics, engines, cost of operating, and so on. But if an external design such as the 757 is a winner, who cares if that's "old technology". hat may be true for the "shape" of the plane, but update everything else, and you might have another 30 years added on.

Plus, keep in mind that the airline industry is in the toilet right now anyway. NOBODY, save for a few LCC's are buying planes.

Besides, with so many good and late model planes in storage, lease/buy rates have got to be pretty darn low right about now. Why buy new planes when you can get some good 733's or M80's for a song?

Just my .$02
 
luvflng
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 10:22 pm

Boeing is not developing 7E7 for today's market!! I am sure that they are looking at the business cycle and see that they can make profit from this aircraft down the line. They need to stay competitive with Airbus.

There are predictions (however accurate they are, don't lynch me for that) call for replacement of 5053 planes in a period of 17 years (until 2020). These replacements are aircraft that must be changed due to the limit of their airframe, and landing/takeoff cycles. So, this is not even a new business to the manufacturers, but they can count on at least some moderate demand from airline next 17 years. Thus a 7E7 design looks very good for this type of the market where old 767/300/310/ and yes 330 (by that time 15-20 years old) need to be replaced.

my 2 cents...

-luvflng
Radar Contact Terminated, Squawk VFR
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:36 pm

Vanguard 737 says...
"I hate to break this chain of depression/scepticism about Boeing, but your getting ahead of yourselves!! Many of you are talking about replacing the 737, dedspite the fact that the new gerneration just started! Yes, the design goes way back, but if its broke, dont fix it! The 757 is a great plane and the -300 is brand new! Relax! The 767 is economical, modern, and cost effective, so why would an airline dump it just because "well were sick of seeing the same plane all the time, we demand something brand new even though our current planes perform outstandingly and will fr years to come" Its not the end of the world"
That's what Douglas and Lockheed were thinking. I think it's put up, or shut up time for Boeing. They need to make a decision soon. It they fail to be serious with what they're unvieling, airlines are going to look elsewhere for their airliners. There are 2 of the heads of the former MDC on the board at Boeing. They are the ones who are skeptical about the design. Could they be trying to unravel the company from the inside? Also, I think the A380 is not going to be ordered in the numbers they're forcasting, It'll be sold to any airline that has no financial restrictions, but US carriers won't buy it. To big an airplane for too little demand.
Made from jets!
 
Alessandro
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:40 pm

So FedEx isn´t US based?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:41 pm

Vanguard 737 says...
"I hate to break this chain of depression/scepticism about Boeing, but your getting ahead of yourselves!! Many of you are talking about replacing the 737, dedspite the fact that the new gerneration just started! Yes, the design goes way back, but if its broke, dont fix it! The 757 is a great plane and the -300 is brand new! Relax! The 767 is economical, modern, and cost effective, so why would an airline dump it just because "well were sick of seeing the same plane all the time, we demand something brand new even though our current planes perform outstandingly and will fr years to come" Its not the end of the world"
That's what Douglas and Lockheed were thinking when they were trying to bolster orders for the DC6/7 and Connie while Boeing was developing the 707. I think it's put up, or shut up time for Boeing. They need to make a decision soon. It they fail to be serious with what they're unvieling, airlines are going to look elsewhere for their airliners. There are 2 of the heads of the former MDC on the board at Boeing. They are the ones who are skeptical about the design. Could they be trying to unravel the company from the inside? Also, I think the A380 is not going to be ordered in the numbers they're forcasting, It'll be sold to any airline that has no financial restrictions, but US carriers won't buy it. To big an airplane for too little demand.
Made from jets!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:44 pm

US Passenger airlines, Alessandro. Pardon me.
Made from jets!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Do We Really Need The 7e7?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 12:05 am


Dont forget that you need to plan in advance, the 7e7 is not planned to hit the runways util 2008, still over 5 years away. Hell "5" years from Continental can decide to phase out their 747-200's & go with the 7e7, unlikely, but you never know. In 5 years plenty of things can happen.
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