qantas744
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 pm

Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:57 am

BAA.com is saying the inbound from JFK has been diverted, anyone know what is happening?


Matt
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
dc-10 levo
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 2:59 am

It has been diverted to Cardiff. No more info yet.

DC-10
 
EGFF
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:04 am

I just rang the airport and told that it was divert due to a 'technical problem' ... hopefully nothing too serious!
Regards,
Shaun
All together or not at all
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:32 am

Sounds like a surge, BA have a maint facility at CWL, so we could send a team there, or do a ferry flight to LHR.
Must have been late in the flight, otherwise it would have been back to JFK or another N.American diversion.
 
Guest

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 3:47 am

Damn, didn't this just happen on the 6th?

Brian - SPOT THIS!
 
dc-10 levo
Posts: 3376
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:01 am

It seems to be happening much more frequently now for some reason. It's been all over Sky News, they said:

"We'll keep you updated on this story as the news breaks."

It's a technical problem for God's sake.

DC-10
 
cancidas
Posts: 3985
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:03 am

looks like some bad luck for concorde lately. hope everything is ok.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:24 am

It's not so frequent, just that the media go overboard when it does happen.
However, it's landed safely, it can fly OK on 3 engines but more fuel burn at low speed entering into the busy stack at LHR is likely a factor.
But reliability generally would have been better in the last couple of years if we had flown the damn things more often!

 
kilavoud
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:26 am

Sky news :

CONCORDE DIVERTED TO CARDIFF


A Concorde flight en route from New York to London has been diverted to Cardiff.

British Airways said the diversion was due to a technical problem and the landing was not an emergency.


All passengers were said to be safe and the passengers were being transported to London Heathrow by bus.

More to follow...
 
airjampanam
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:30 am

Where is Cardiff?
How long a bus ride is that going to be?
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:46 am

3.5 hours by bus.

Cardiff is in Wales, at the South Coast. Wales is in the South West of the UK - the big square peninsula and not the narrow triangular one (Cornwall)

Regards

Ikarus
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:49 am


I do have to say that if I'm paying a sh!tload of money to fly Concorde, I would expect better than being bussed 3.5 hours!!
 
airjampanam
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:50 am

Much obliged Ikarus...
HMMM
That makes the supersonic crossing a very swift oh lets say 7 hours?
Does BA compensate PAX for that diversion?
Concorde aint a cheap flight, and I assume one pays for the speed of crossing the pond.
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
qantas744
Posts: 1658
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:11 am

In this instance I would expect that the subsonic BA178 will be in LHR some time before the pax from BA2 even though they left JFK at similar times.


Matt
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:13 am

Pax will be compensated, most are now on it to experience flying on Concorde now, BA001/002s are more like charters these days.
What do people suggest BA do? By the time they get an aircraft to CWL (if they have one and a crew to spare just like that) the pax could be back at LHR anyway.
Apparently, CWL is commonly used for diversions now, first Concorde one there I can recall however.
Not that any other ones ever make the news.
 
airjampanam
Posts: 243
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:14 am

Cardiff sounds like the armpits of that part of the UK!!!
3.5 by BUS????????
BA isn't even putting their "elite" passengers on another flight into civilization?
WOW
No wonder Virgin has em whipped!
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:20 am

Don't knock Cardiff, I'll be living there soon.... no armpit!  Big grin

50 minutes by air on Air Wales to LCY, but I suspect Concorde arrived after the last flight of the day... and Air Wales is one of the few UK airlines not owned by BA anyway.

Besides, they pay for the experience, not the speed, these days, so I doubt they'll be too miffed - perhaps even delighted to be able to add an extra element of excitement to their stories. (Of course, it'll be a full scale emergency landing by the time they tell their grand children, with fire coming out of the engines and big bangs audible in flight  Big grin )

Regards

Ikarus
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3211
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:26 am

I remember once ages ago when Concorde was diverted to Gatwick it flew right over my house. Shame i didn't have my camera handy

-Stephen
 
airjampanam
Posts: 243
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:34 am

My apologies Ikarus.. You are probably correct in that they may take it in stride as a part of the experience.
Once they get their bits in that coach that may change!
 Smile
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:41 am

BA may well have got some vehicles on the road to CWL before the BA002 even touched down, or have access to a local coach company.
There is a well planned procedure for these sorts of things, but better to divert to CWL, a civil airport, than the one previously used, RAF Brize Norton.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:44 am

It seems that the media just cannot get enough of the (minor) problem's that Concorde faces, but don't ever report on the fact that hundreds of other flights on other types of a/c divert every day for one reason or another. A 777 or a 343 or whatever diverting would never even get a mention, but every single time Concorde diverts or has a problem, they jump up and report it, giving a false impression to the general public that the a/c is unsafe or something. The media really do annoy me sometimes.  Angry

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Ikarus
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:48 am

Leezyjet:
Now that it is certain that Concorde will retire, I wish they'd do it some more - a lot more in fact. Enough to scare those people with tickets into selling them for 1/20th of the prize on ebay so I can grab one...  Big grin

Perhaps a TV channel could do a "Daily Concorde Report" or something, showing every little fatigue crack in zoomed detail, showing the AF Concorde in Paris crashing over and over again, and inserting the TU144 images of Le Bourget (and claiming it was Concorde - the public won't notice the difference anyway)?

 Acting devilish

Regards

Ikarus
 
Demoose
Posts: 1891
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:08 am

Ikarus, if you've got enough cash you should look here http://www.airliners.net/buysell/readad.main?order=&searchstring=&nr_of_rows=27&fakeid=18.

Do they actually have concorde tickets on ebay then? I've never bothered to look.

Mark
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
GDB
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:17 am

I could amuse myself with typing up daily reports from the Concorde hangar floor on here, scare the shit out of those who don't know what goes into making ANY aircraft safe to fly, plenty of copy for a often sensationalist, technically illiterate media too.
Just be a lot more of it with the rocket, with it's specialization, quirks, zero-tolerance to any kind of ergonomic design, lack of modern diagnostics, the virtual 'hand built' nature of the fleet, fun and games with spares, 'heritage' nature of much of the avionics and much else besides.
I think I know what caused tonight's diversion;
Some manager will have told everyone how well we are doing serviceability wise lately, I've seen it so many times, we all collectively think "Don't say that, the f****** aircraft in the hangar will hear you and decide to bite us!"
27 year Concorde veterans swear by this rule.
(To be serious for a moment, those highly experienced Concorde guys are, and always have been, the key to BA's operation).
We also make our own lives harder by very strictly keeping to the maintenance requirements, actually we usually go beyond them to be extra sure.
Still, it's a tough beast to run, no matter how hard you try they do (even today) still throw us challenges, curveballs, still causes a lot of experienced heads to come together and sort engineering problems out.
But we wouldn't have it any other way, after next month we'll miss it terribly, the challenges make for huge satisfaction when, as happens the vast majority of the time, the great white bird performs fantastically.
Despite everything, we are it's biggest fans.
I asked one guy what he thought about leaving Concorde, he said "Don't want to go back on 747s, no character, too big, it's like a block of flats with wings".
 
Guest

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 4:20 pm

The BBC is reporting that the diversion was caused by an engine surge. Following attention from engineers the aircraft ferried to LHR. BA reports that the passengers and crew 'were not in danger at any time'.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 6:48 pm

How far is Cardiff from LHR ???

Don't think it's THAT far, so if the Crew decided to divert, when being so close to the destination, it's was quite certainly urgent to land and more important than they say... Concorde can land without problems with only 3 engines... I can understand a divert to SNN or BES but Cardiff sounds strange for me as few minutes after, they could have land at LHR
 
whisperingiant
Posts: 62
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:08 pm

Hope you guys realise that (because BA are OF COURSE treating their high fare paying passengers extra-specially well) that the passenger transfer is by SUPERSONIC bus.

It must be. It would normally take much longer than 3.5 hours to get from Cardiff to London...

 Wink/being sarcastic

--x-x-wg-x-x--
"So quiet, you can hear the fizz in your drink..."
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Thu Sep 18, 2003 9:53 pm

FLYSCC: According to the news, they landed because the fuel consumption necessitated by subsonic flight would have made continuing to London risky.

Remember, the thing is very fuel-guzzling at subsonic speeds, and when the compressor surge forces the plane to fly subsonically, it cannot reach London with a comfortable margin

Regards

Ikarus
 
FlySSC
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:43 am

I know fuel consumption is really a problem with Concorde, I understand better now they diverted to Cardiff, if the "problem" occured at SS speed over the Atlantic and they had to go down and slow down at subsonic speed for 1 hour...

I remember we had a few time to stop for refuelling at BES or NTE on the way back to CDG from Paris, just because of bad altitude winds, too long wait at JFK before T.O, few degrees less in the altitude temperature that would stuck us at mach 1,75 or M1,95 during few more minutes than normal...
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:34 am

CWL seems to be the diversion of choice now, for all fleets.
Diversions there are common, but only one aircraft type makes the news when it does divert.

Bad luck yesterday, even with the surge the 002 should still have made it back to LHR, but at JFK it had a RTO due a reheat failure, so it tried again and went OK.
But apparently there was quite a wait between the two departures, which must have burned some amount of fuel.
With hindsight, (always a wonderful thing and so easy to have in front of a computer), they'd have been better off returning to stand and taking some more fuel on.
But maybe there were plenty of factors against that, slot times, congestion etc.

I don't think a PAN was called, it's all about being extra cautious, like all aircraft it's at it's most efficient at it's cruising speeds, typically for Concorde, the difference is much greater.
The surge must have happened after a considerable time at Mach 2, otherwise he'd have either gone back or gone to SNN.

LHR are almost always very accommodating if a Concorde needs to get in a bit sooner, all the more impressive when you consider how busy LHR is at the 002s arrival time.

Still, the Capt has a choice to make in flight, and not a lot of time to do it, better to make a diversion with plenty of warning than ask for help much later.
The last time this happened, the Capt told his pax "I'm paid to make safety decisions, not commercial ones".
Quite right too.
 
donder10
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:24 am

Mr Crelly added: "There was no communication we suddenly just dropped. The air crew suddenly packed everything up and told us the captain was very busy but would speak to us shortly. Finally he came on the line to tell us what had happened."


Journeys to and from the airport were not affected
The couple said they would be seeking compensation for the cost of their trip which they described as "the best part of £10,000".


What do they expect the captain to do?
 
airjampanam
Posts: 243
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 2:41 am

I knew there would be grumbling from some of those deep pocketed BA customers.
The more BA tries to squeeze out of that tin can the more they run the risk of losing more money.
I love and will miss Concorde like the next man, but it has clearly passed the point of dependability.
Let it go BA
Let it go!
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
GDB
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:01 am

Absolute bollocks, if the media were not so ill-informed you'd know nothing about it.
Engine surges happen on all aircraft, admittedly on Concorde it's a bit more noticeable, they happened on Concorde from time to time and always have done, but no more or less frequently than at any other times in 27 years of operation.

If you had any idea how the engine/intake system works, what is involved in making it work, you'd maybe be surprised that surges don't happen more frequently.
That they do not is a tribute to R/R, BAe (who developed the intake system) and BA Engineering.

The trouble with Concorde and the media is that there is nothing else to judge it against.
Subsonic airliners? Not really.
Military Aircraft? No, they spend minutes at a time supersonic, not hours.

If AF (and by extension Airbus), had not pulled the plug this 'tin-can' would be flying for some time longer than it actually will.

 
B2707SST
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:15 am

This may be a dumb question, but if Concorde experienced an engine surge, why didn't it simply continue at Mach 2 cruise? Isn't the intake/engine control system designd to dump excess air, throttle back the engine, recapture the shock wave, and continue as normal after an "unstart"? Since so much of the development program centered around surge testing, it seems like this should be a relatively minor issue (though certainly uncomfortable for pax/crew).

--B2707SST
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
 
airjampanam
Posts: 243
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RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:49 am

The final post for me on this topic....
Here you have from the BBC. Passengers were FURIOUS!!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/3118506.stm
Suing is the new Lotto... if u wanna win u gotta sue!
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:57 am

Of course they were furious, how else could they try and get as much compensation out of it as possible?  Yeah sure

Honestly, I think they were secretly thrilled, and only kick up a fuss to
a) be mentioned in the press
and
b) get as much compensation as possible out of it.

Claiming that the return flight on Concorde ruined the holiday they had beforehand (or very nearly doing so: "The whole point of the trip was to have a fantastic holiday followed by the experience of flying on Concorde. We sat on the Tarmac for an hour before they opened a special runway for us" ) simply shows the real motive behind their whines.

Regards

Ikarus
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:57 am

Some pax were pissed, others were not, the forum on http://www.concordesst.com/ shows that, some posted what happened to them on there rather than cry to the media.

B2707SST, you are right, however BA practice is to decelerate if you have a bad surge.

Here is the REAL story of what happened.
A no.1 reheat failure caused a RTO on G-BOAG at JFK, deciding to try again they requested a longer runway, in case the reheat failed again.
Well moving a crane from said runway caused a delay of around an hour, all the time the engines were idling burning fuel, on a full aircraft.
But the crew calculated it would be OK, computers that are part of the fuel management system aid in this.
The second T/O was OK, of course later in the flight the surge on no.2 engine, keeping to procedure the aircraft slowed down, increasing fuel burn a lot.
So the diversion into CWL, no emergency, not an emergency landing, just good solid procedure that has served us well over 27 years.

The next day, checks on the engines (both no.1 and no.2) and the intakes, using both visual and NDT.
As OAG was to return to LHR, why not take a supersonic diversion as engineers with test equipment could monitor the intake system to see if the problem re-occurred?
The near empty aircraft, taking off with a relatively light fuel load, going straight over the Severn Estuary near CWL, got to Mach 1 / 29,000 feet in 4 minutes!
But the test was inconclusive, so some components on the no.2 intake were changed today at LHR, we make no apologies for being so cautious, intake problems are not common, but they can be lengthy to solve.

 
eg777er
Posts: 1782
Joined: Fri Feb 04, 2000 11:11 pm

RE: Concorde Diverted?

Sat Sep 20, 2003 3:37 am

0-700mph in 4 minutes?

F___ me.

This aeroplane never ceases to amaze me, even after I've flown on it (did I mention that!?  Smile )