geg2rap
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Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:38 am

When WN came out with there latest good news report, they mentioned they might pull into a new city next year. I know every town with a runway wants WN there but Anyone got an inside on where? COS (Denver Area) somewhere near Atlanta (not hartsfield though too crowded for WN's quick turn time) Rapid City SD (haha I wish) or where???
GEG2RAP
 
copaair737
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:43 am

I would say FAT. There are alot of open gates there with the new terminal that was just built, and plenty of room for expansion.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:46 am

Go to WN Connects the dots.....an older thread on the same topic.
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Customs172
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:56 am

Does anyone know why southwest can only fly into DAL from certain airports around TX and nowhere else?
Thanks,
Nate
 
flyboyaz
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:00 am

It's a govt restriction....they actually can but the plane can only seat a certain number of seats. That's what Legend did with their DC9's and then AA copied them (to put them out of business, their usual territorial tactics) with F100's. I also believe CO used to fly the ERJ to EWR.
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Customs172
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:02 am

Thats crazy. I wish LUV could put in a SMF-DAL flight.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:14 am

Seriously, do a serach for "Wright Amendment" and educate yourself. It's interesting stuff, the legalities behind Love Field. It was originally written to 'convince' airlines to move to the new DFW in 1974. It worked- only Southwest stayed!

But I would like to see them come out to GGG (Longview, Texas). I go to school here, and American Eagle is outrageously overpriced.

R
 
UN_B732
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:15 am

In more detail It's called the "Wright Amendment" it was created to lure more people into Dallas/Ft Worth.
An aircraft 50 seats or under can go interstate (which at the time wasn't very common)
but a larger aircraft can only go within Texas and to a few select destinations.
-UN
What now?
 
SunValley
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:24 am

The Wright amendment prohibits any carrier from operating aircraft with more than 50 seats to states outside those adjacent to Texas and including Alabama, from Dallas Love Field
 
flynavy
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:27 am

Fresno (FAT) is probably one the most underserved airports in a major city in the United States. The largest aircraft scheduled into FAT is American's Super80's (DFW service) and Allegiant's MD80's (LAS service). I think WN would do very well here.

I live 30 miles from FAT at Lemoore NAS. Due to the higher fares at FAT, I usually drive to Los Angeles, Sacramento, or San Francisco to take advantage of the lower fares offered there. On a side note, Allegiant Air, Fresno's now ex-hometown airline, is moving most of its operations to LAS. If WN comes to FAT, bet on increased competition from United/Skywest on the FAT-LAX/LAS/SFO-area runs.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:27 am

I wouldnt be surprised to see WN at RSW in the relatively near future
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luv2fly
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:39 am

One thing we can all be sure of is the fact that WN will keep this under wraps until the very last minute. I think right now they most likely are going to connect the dots on there route map before adding new cities. I would not be surprised if they did not add a city at all next year 2004.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Customs172
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:57 am

AA737
Im from Longview, Wish they did fly there. I paid 300+ back in July for DFW-GGG. Sux....
 
MCIB757
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 7:06 am

ConcordeBoy, I agree with you about RSW, I think WN would do very good there and it would be great to see a MCI-RSW n/s flight.

Tom
"God bless catastrophe..."
 
AirMatt
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:09 am

It would be nice to have WN at RSW, however that probably will not happen until the new terminal is completed (I think in two years).
 
brons2
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 8:21 am

AA737
Im from Longview, Wish they did fly there. I paid 300+ back in July for DFW-GGG. Sux....


Y'all are crazy. I can make it from downtown Dallas to Longview in under 2 hours with the cruise on 85 mph Big grin

(my cousin attended LeTourneau U)
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lgbguy
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:18 am

I think there will be 2 new cities next year for LUV...PIT,ABE,harrisburg(?),SFW or HPN......and the long shot COS...there is alot or talk about PIT around the System...as for new service from other southwest cities I thing you will see OAK-BWI,OAK-MCO&TPA,MHT-FLL,MHT-PHX,SNA-ABQ,LAS-PBI,LAX-TPA&MCO,SEA-BWI,PDX-MDW,ORF-PHX....ENJOY LgBGuY???
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:56 am

I still personally think there is some sort of backroom Gentleman's Agreement between UA and WN that has prevented WN from flying into Colorado Springs (COS). There is major concern that if WN does start operations into COS using the former Western Pacific gates, they could considerably cut into UA's customer base at DEN, which could put UA into a even more major financial bind.

Mind you, WN would have huge amounts of traffic in and out of COS year-round. Besides the obvious winter recreation traffic, COS has a number of excellent resorts that operate in the summer, high tech industries in the area, and the USAF Academy to provide summer traffic.
 
SWAFA30
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:55 pm

I still personally think there is some sort of backroom Gentleman's Agreement between UA and WN that has prevented WN from flying into Colorado Springs (COS). There is major concern that if WN does start operations into COS using the former Western Pacific gates, they could considerably cut into UA's customer base at DEN, which could put UA into a even more major financial bind

Interesting thought. Many thought we would go right into COS right after WestPac folded. Heck...we even have a couple of their aircraft #657 and 658. Herb and Co. were not too concerned with UAs financials during the whole United Shuttle slugfest out in California back in the 90s and it has not deterred us from building quite a little operation in Chicago. Perhaps the past experience at DEN and our subsequent departure from that market left such a bad taste, that Colorado is off the 'to-do' list indefinitely. In a city with as much pent up demand for LuvJet service as everyone thinks COS seems to have...it would seem foolish to enter the market unless and until you have the aircraft to handle the traffic. Short of buying another carrier, we can only get our hands on so many aircraft per year. As it stands those aircraft are easily being absorbed into the system to 'connect the dots' between existing markets. Assuming COS will not be announced this year, the more likely reason is that there as simply more tempting and lucrative offers on the table. Also don't discount the jetBlue effect on our strategic planning. With their explosive growth over the past few years, staying one step ahead of them has to be figuring into every move WN makes as we begin to grow again.

Of course, while we're discussing all this they could be nailing up the SWA signage at COS right this minute.

 
Customs172
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:00 pm

Well, Brons2
When you have been traveling for around 30 hours with a small child and your tired and dirty and just want sleep, I find that its a little better to sit in a Saab 340 for 30 minutes instead of a car for 2 hours. Hmm.......
 
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:05 pm

I pick ACY (Philadelphia) and COS (Denver).
 
zrs70
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:10 pm

Worcester, MA
Bridgeport, CT
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
brons2
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:11 pm

Well, Brons2
When you have been traveling for around 30 hours with a small child and your tired and dirty and just want sleep, I find that its a little better to sit in a Saab 340 for 30 minutes instead of a car for 2 hours. Hmm.......


But are you going to pay $300 extra for that priviledge??

I'd rather fly, honestly, but there is a breakeven point on that. I just booked a couple of DAL-AUS flights when they were on sale for $34 each way last week. That is most definitely worth it, because I am traveling alone and in my truck, the gas alone would probably cost me $50.

BUT, if i was doing a similar shorthaul where the airfares were more expensive, if gas prices were lower, if I had several other people going with me and splitting the costs, etc, then a short flight might not make so much sense economically.

Bottom line, for $68 I'm flying. For $300, I'm driving. Simple as that.
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UAL747
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:24 pm

What about HOU-FSM or DAL-FSM? AA, NW, and DL seem to have a pretty good operation to Dallas and Memphis.

UAL747
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cloudy
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:24 pm

I doubt WN is going to make any final decisions on where to move in 2004 until every financially strapped carrier's fate is firmly decided. American, United, and USair are still in danger. We have already seen major cutbacks from American and are likely to see more from United in the next few months. Only when the final fallout from the recession and 9/11 is determined is WN going to move. It could make a major difference in where they choose to go.

My guess is they have a short list of a half dozen cities they are ready to move into in short order. The final outcome of the latest bankruptcies and cutbacks will determine which 1 or 2 get lucky. WN has been known to quickly snap up opportunities when other carriers fold or abandon markets.
 
geg2rap
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next?

Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:58 pm

I agree WN is in the stop it is in because it does not jump on the stop, WN says it has to have 10 737 flights to come into an area, do think people will drive 70 miles to COS? I dont know what the security at DEN or COS is like but that is a long drive. Would be nice to see though DIA has it's head way up in the mile high air and fares there are beyond tolerable. Hope WN sees the oppurtunity!
GEG2RAP
 
Customs172
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:05 pm

Well, Also when the only car you own is in Japan, and mom is afraid to drive in Dallas (i duno) I dont mind that much. I will happily pay it, but it wouldnt be a bad thing to pay less. I guess we are lucky to even have a flight into GGG. The 4 times I have made that flight its less than half full..

[Edited 2003-09-22 07:07:38]
 
jhooper
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:14 pm

Where would WN fly to in Atlanta besides Hartsfield?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:25 pm

WN says it has to have 10 737 flights to come into an area, do think people will drive 70 miles to COS? I dont know what the security at DEN or COS is like but that is a long drive.

Colorado Springs is a popular destination by iteself. WestPac's low fares attracted enough passengers to fill up UA's DC-10 from DEN-COS. Also, DEN seems like it's 70 miles from the city, too  Laugh out loud.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:31 pm

I think ABE is an ideal location for WN...perfectly positioned to steal traffic from EWR and PHL...but Southeast already has a small lowfare operation there to Florida so it would be a lowfare vs. lowfare situation if WN went there...TTN might also be good but its terminal would probably need to be expanded somewhat...

Greg
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AV8AJET
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:33 pm

Could MCN (Macon, GA) work for WN? It's close to ATL and very low traffic. Only about an hour airport to airport drive, numerous shuttle services all day long. Only ASA has scheduled service from ATL. No Jetways available but the close proximity to ATL could possibly help. It's about as close as they could get to ATL. Also there is a maintenance facility there with 737's, I've seen AWA & Continental 73's there a few times.
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ual777contrail
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 2:55 pm

WN Wont be coming into the springs anytime soon.

people did drive from south DEN to fly WEST PAC but we got a lot of the traffic as well. Rumor has always been that if WN decides to come into COS then UAL would beef up their ops like they did with west pac. In my opinion I don't think WN will want to go head to head with UAL in Colorado.

Now think about it for a minute, put your hatred for UAL away for a second.
WEST PAC come into the springs, uses about 4 or 5 gates not including the floating terminal and decide not to stay in COS? I know there is more to the story but if THEY couldn't make it work in COS then I don't think WN will. When WEST PAC added flights we added bigger planes, when they lowered fares, we matched them. We were just as busy if not more, COS UAL had at one time 3 757's and a 727 Ron 7 days a week. 2 DC-10'S a day, one making a 3:30pm turn and another Ron.

In my opinion WN wont try this one, there are better opportunities elsewhere than in COS. UAL, no matter the finances or who is doing better, UAL wont let WN take anymore from them, and including Colorado.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:04 pm

It does seem to me that Colorado is a BIG hole in the WN route network - COS would seem a very obvious choice. Service to DEN is pretty restricted, even with Frontier, especially from big existing WN markets like New England (PVD, MHT), Mid-Atlantic states (BWI, RDU) and Florida (MCO, TPA). I think COS would make a pretty good 'dot' to join between the Midwest and California.

Denver itself is slowly growing southwards, and since the new airport is so far out of town, the drive to COS is not particularly unthinkable from most suburban areas south of downtown. Look how many people in the Boston area will happily drive to PVD or MHT to take a flight - shorter queues, less traffic, less likelihood of delays, cheaper parking - it definitely has its advantages.

Possibly WP could not manage to make COS work because it was a start up, it did not have the critical mass to offer a "big-bang" market entry. If WN could start COS service as a stopover point on direct flights to both coasts (BWI, MCO, LAX, OAK) and MDW, as well as STL, LAS and a couple of other big focus markets eg. MHT, MCI they could definitely make it work.

I certainly hope they pick COS.
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dragon-wings
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:29 pm

Any new destinations out of Islip? (ISP/KISP)
Don't give up don't ever give up - Jim Valvano
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:13 pm

Let me explain the reason why WN has yet to choose Colorado Springs (COS) as their next destination.

Consider UA's still precarious situation. Whatever revenue they are enjoying are coming from their transpacific flights from SFO and LAX and their highly lucrative hub operation at DEN. If UA faced serious competition from WN (or B6 or from the summer of 2004 FL) at COS, that could seriously cut into the revenue stream of flights in and out of DEN for UA, and this could bring UA to the point of Chapter 7 liquidation.  Sad

Could WN, B6 and soon FL offer flights in and out of COS easily? I think they can, because all three carriers have or will soon have enough aircraft and personel to handle such an operation.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:51 pm

I really feel that WN will not be adding any city until 2005, maybe late 2004 tho I really doubt it before 2005. I think they are waiting for the dust to settle with the supposed big 6, also more concerned with adding flights and connecting the dots with there already strong route map. Also keep in mind some of the new aircraft are going to replace some of the 737 - 200's that are leaving over the next 17 months.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:28 am

RAY,
I hope you don't actually believe the crap you are printing. Think for a second RAY, if WN cant put UA out of business now they sure as hell aren't going to put UA out of business because of our Colorado market.
Chap.7? Man we should all be grateful WN hasn't come into COS/DEN or else we would be out of jobs? UA Would beef up service and hurt WN, not what you are referring to. Having a hub 70 miles north of you and countless widebodies you can move some people.


JGPH,
I agree with you that WP was only a start up and WN is a major player, but I f WEST PACS loads didn't help them then why would the same be good for WN? WP Must have had a low seat mile, I have no clue what it was.

Maybe WN should go into PUB.

UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:47 am

UAL777contrail, your dogged support for your employer is admirable. Someone has to do it.

If Southwest wanted to enter COS, they would, and they would do just fine. Southwest handed "Shuttle by United"s head to Oak Grove on a platter. WN established themselves at MDW in the face of UA's Chicago hub, and are prospering. WN established themselves at BWI across town from UA's IAD hub. The enplanements at these airports speak for themselves--big declines at IAD, big growth at BWI. Atlantic Coast certainly doesn't seem to think United has a great future in the DC area in the face of WN. While ACA's move may be very risky, it speaks volumes about a very successful regional's view of UA.

If Southwest wanted to set up shop in CO, probably at COS, they would establish themselves just fine as they have at every other out-of-TX market they have entered. UA could beef up service all they liked, but if there's any carrier they can't predatory-practice out of a market, it's WN. BTW, DOJ probably should have looked into UA's practices against WP, but if I remember correctly they didn't.

Western Pacific also committed suicide by deciding to move to Denver. One analyst called it "the first planned airline suicide I've ever seen." That appallingly financially unsound move, by a small carrier with no other operations, guaranteed their demise.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Guest

RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:51 am

Madison (MSN) - STL or MDW
Billings (BIL) - SMF or LAS

Those two stand out.

 
flyboyaz
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:09 am

I also agree COS would be a great new city. It's very close to DEN and the fares in COS are very high.

WP probably would have done great if it had not left COS...I agree moving to DEN was a fatal move. Ed was great, but even at HP did not make the best decisions....like buying 747's....what was he thinking?? lol Actually it wasn't a horrible decision but the Gulf crisis killed it more than anything....the HNL-NGO flight was a good cash cow, but people simply were not flying international.

I don't know about FAT....from what I've seen WN doesn't have a lot of really short flights...they fly JAX-FLL, TPA-FLL but where would they fly out of FAT....maybe LAX to make a lot of connections. I think most people would be flying out of there to make connections, not many point to point flights.
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DSMav8r
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:07 am

FAT wouldn't be a bad choice...They have a decent metro population, larger than many current WN cities. Flights to PHX, LAS, LAX, stand out as potential routes.

COS baffles me...It seems like a perfect fit for WN, I think it is only a matter of time (although this has been said for years now).

Others include GSO, ABE, and GRR. I would also say DSM, but its close proximity to larger cities with WN service (Omaha and K.C.), plus the reputation of not utilizing services once provided will hurt their chances.
To most people, the sky is the limit. To those who love aviation, the sky is home
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:46 am

Luv2fly,

Guess you missed Friday's Dow Jones news interview with Gary Kelly.
Kelly said Southwest will probably add another city to its route system in 2004.

"We'll add at least one city next year. It's possible we could do more than that," said Kelly. Southwest currently operates at 59 airports.

"We're looking for two basic attributes. We're looking for a market that is overpriced, and one that is under-served," said Kelly, who has worked for Southwest since 1986.

http://biz.yahoo.com/djus/030919/1410000630_1.html
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
FATFlyer
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:56 am

Potential FAT flights? Just off the top of my head (No research just putting things in that make sense based on travel patterns) I can put together:
FAT to
OAK - at least 2 daily
LAX - at least 2 daily
PHX - at least 2 daily
SAN - 1
SLC - 1
SEA - 1
LAS - 1
RNO - 1 (A Reno Hilton manager was once quoted in the Reno newspaper saying that was the flight he'd ask for if he had 1 minute with Herb)

Need some longer? MCI, MDW, and BWI are all among Fresno's top unserved markets that suffer from high leakage.

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
luv2fly
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:59 am

FATFlyer

I did miss that, thanks for pointing it out. Tho it does say "probably" I still feel it will not likely happen or if it does it will be late 2004. Who knows tho I have been wrong before.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
PVD757
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:06 am

ABE stands out in my mind. If you want to go somewhere in Georgia besides Atl, my guess would be Savannah. PIT is a definite no because of the high costs. There was an old press release that said they eventually want to go to RIC, but that was 2 years ago. I would look at places where there is not a a lot of WN presence as well. I'm thinking even Charleston, SC, Savannah, Lincoln Nebraska(haven't checked their routes before writing this).
 
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STT757
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:11 am

Forget about HPN, not WN's kind of airport and restricted and monitored by nimbys like crazy. They even close the parking garages in an effort to keep flights from departing earlier than 6 or 7 AM.

Allentown and Atlantic City would cover the Philadelphia, Eastern Pennsylvania, New Jersey area well. Atlantic City airport is about 45 miles from Center City Philadelphia, roughly the same distance (actually a little less)as Allentown from Center City Philadelphia.

West Trenton would be perfect for them as it's right smack in the middle between NYC and Philadelphia, however Nimbys are fighting any effort by Mercer County to expand the airport. The West Trenton airport is actually in a rural farm area near the Delaware river, lots of Nimbys on both sides of the Delaware (NJ,PA) against the airport's expansion.
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5280AGL
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:14 am

Lincoln, nah...It is practically a large Omaha suburb, or will be very soon.  Big grin
 
F9Widebody
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:29 am

I agree WN is in the stop it is in because it does not jump on the stop, WN says it has to have 10 737 flights to come into an area, do think people will drive 70 miles to COS? I don't know what the security at DEN or COS is like but that is a long drive.

I live in south Denver, and it is a 45 minute drive to DEN, or a 55 minute drive to COS, so that is no major factor. On one hand, I would love to see WN come in and offer some cheaper flights. However, on the other hand, I wonder if that is really what Colorado needs right now. If WN comes in, it will most likely hurt F9 and UA's business. With United already being in bankruptcy, and controlling 60% of traffic in and out of DEN and F9 being a locally owned company, I don't think WN coming to Colorado Springs is really good for Colorado.
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ual777contrail
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RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:51 am

DCA-ROC,
Thanks, but I still don't think WN holds the gun in its hand at UAL. They would thrive in COS, but it wouldn't kill UAL. I personaly don't care if they come in, if they do we will probably see mainline service to make it as hard as possible for them.

2 different kinds of airlines, 2 different kinds of people, but in all nobody really cares if they come in or not. There are 6 gates on the floating terminal that they can use.



UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
ncflyer
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Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

RE: Where Will WN Luv To Go Next

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:50 am

I'm surprised no one mentions DAY, it's a decent size metro area (1MM) and it can draw from CVG, which is one of the worst fortress hubs in the country. There's a Harvard Business case from the mid to late 80s or so where WN debated between connecting some dots and adding DAY, connecting the dots won out at the time.


Another market that fits the exact same description is GSP, fast growing area, near enought to draw from CLT and other SC cities, tourist business in to Asheville and remaining W NC.