jeffrey1970
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What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:33 am

I thought of this question since this year is the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers first flight, and sadly the last year of the Concord. I know many might say Concord, since it is so very fascinating. However I feel that the 707 was more important. The reason is, as fascinating as Concord is, very few people have been able to fly on Concorde. Plus, due to cost and many other reasons, it is not likely people will be able to fly past the speed of sound after Concorde is retired. However, when the 707 was first introduced in 1958 (I could be wrong about the year) it was the first successful jetliner that could fly passenger service. More importantly it could fly transatlantic and transpacific flights in record time. Because of that, airlines such as Pan Am, TWA, American Airlines, BOAC (I think), and many others were able to introduce airline travel to people who either did not have the time for longer flights on propeller planes, or could not afford the airfare. By the way I know the British actually came out with a jet plane before the 707, however for safety reasons it was not successful.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff

[Edited 2003-09-23 00:49:11]
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
brons2
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:55 am

The DC-3 was more important.

It was the first plane that ever made any airline ANY money flying passengers.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:56 am

Anyhow, that is just my opinion. I would love to read other's opinions.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
flyf15
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:59 am

The 707. All the Concorde really did for the future of aviation was something to look pretty for history books.
 
RickB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:03 am

Concorde - the 707 was not the first jetliner and had many compatriots at the time including the convairs and DC8 not forgetting the Comet, VC10, etc. The 707 was a very good aircraft but it did not redefine air travel (as did the Comet and the 747).

Concorde was groundbreaking at a number of levels and set performance standards that even today military aircraft can't match.

RickB
 
Goose
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:05 am

http://www.avroland.ca/al-c102.shtml

The Avro Jetliner was before the 707 as well, and a slight bit less than two weeks behind the Comet.

As for importance.... I'd say that the 707 ushered in the "modern" jet age, as well as a new design philosophy for airliners. But in terms of importance? If you're going to stick to commercial aviation, I'd agree that the most important aircraft would be the DC-3; it was one of the first "true" airliners, and the airframe also has the distinction outside the commercial sector, of being insturmental in helping to win the Second World War. No other airframe has lasted longer in service, civil or military, and its usefulness still is shown today.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:09 am

Thank you Goose and Brons2,

I did not even think of the DC-3.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
IslandHopper
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:12 am

The Concorde was a fuzzy reach into the edge of science, much as our space shuttles are. Both cost their respective governments billions of their citizens money. If you are a scientist or engineer, they were amazing achievements and a triumph of the human mind and worth every penny.

If you are Joe Average, Concorde was just pie in the sky and an example of how governments waste our money.

The 707 brought fast air transport to the masses, and thus is the more important achievement. Don't get me wrong, I love Concorde and am amazed by it, but was it a good use of British & French taxpayer's money? NO WAY!!!

God bless you too, Jeff.
 
elwood64151
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:26 am

Rickb:

I have to disagree with you. Like the DC-3 in 1935, the 707 was the first large, long-range, highly profitable aircraft of its kind. The Comet was a fairly low-capactiy aircraft, and the VC-10 and others were not as profitable for the airlines that flew them or for the manufacturers.

The 707 was the first modern jetliner. It was the beginning of a line of commercial aircraft that have collectively changed the course of aviation history and the way the business of air travel is done in general.

Concorde has been an interesting experiment, but it's hardly revolutionary. If it had made money, maybe. Really, the only significant impact the Concorde has had was to ensure that no US-produced SSTs would ever be produced, cue to the massive but unfounded outcry against sonic booms.

707 by far.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
PSA53
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:27 am

Hands down! 707
Made the planet smaller and faster to access!
We also learned the bad with noise, pollution, airport
operations and traffic. But was the first of mass
expansion of all aspects of live.

Thanks Pan Am!
Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
 
RickB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:27 am

Islandhopper,

The problem with the 707 is that it was in no way groundbreaking - it did exactly what it said in the tin - nothing more. Was it a successful aircraft - most definately - but was it important - not really - if Boeing hadn't of made it there where other aircraft that would of taken its place (those listed earlier) however Concorde is important - it was the forebear for Airbus - it proved that multi-nation projects could work, it introduced a number of technologies which have filtered down (carbon brake disks, anti lock, fly by wire, etc) it was also unique since the Tu144 never actually worked correctly.

RickB

 
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tavong
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:25 am

BEFORE YOU READ DON'T TAKE THIS LIKE PRO-BOEING OR ANTI-AIRBUS PROPAGANDA IN ORDER TO DON'T MAKE THIS ANOTHER A vs B THEREAD  Smile


Well if you put me to select from 707 or Concorde and it's role in aviation industry i choose 707; Concorde was an ecellent plane in terms of tchnological achievement but also was an example of the misinterpretation of the economy and the markets, B707 was there and used the technology properly, it may not be the first jetliner (Comet was) but it learned from Comet failures and was the first succesfull jetliner, in fact i helped a lot on changing the way the fligths where made, even the Comet was at the times where only richest people where able to fly (and well in sort of terms Concorde was at the same thread) and 707 helped to change that into we see at this times followed and stregthen by the 747, and Douglas used the B707 mistakes to made DC-8 another wonderfull plane unfortunately B707 also helped to bury out other planes like Comet-IV, and VC-10 (what a plane!!!!) but anyway B707 helped airline JET industry to grow and became what they are at this time.

Anyway if you see further back in history there are a lot planes that helped airline industry to grow, how forget the old Junkers, Dornier Wal,Vega, Ford Trimotor, Martins, DC-3, B-247, DC-4, DC-6,B377, Lokheed electra, Hawkers, Fokkers and only God knows how many developers and planes i forgot in this list but all of them helped equally in making this indistry like it's now? In fact it's not who made more and what every indostry helped and all these planes and industries taugth us several lessons that shouldn't be forgotten and that helped to grow Boeing and Airbus and all the others no matter what's your favorite and at this time every industry is learning and learing from themselves and from others no matter if Boeing or Airbus and this thread will continue has long has the planes exists but anyway and keeping this thread and has i stated up here my vote goes for B707 Big grin
Just put me on any modern airliner and i will be happy, give me more star alliance miles and i will be a lot more happy.
 
usair330
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:39 am

I'd say the 707! What other jetliner did a barrow roll that didn't end up an accident?
 
AvObserver
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:46 am

Rickb, the 707 most certainly WAS groundbreaking-maybe it wasn't the first jetliner but it drove the revolution to jet travel at a pace unmatched by the other early models listed. Comet was the first but the crashes of its' early models relegated it to a far less significant place in history. The VC-10 also didn't sell in numbers anywhere near the 707. The DC-8 was on the drawing board but it took Boeing's committment to kick Douglas-comfortable with piston-engine airliners-in the pants and get moving with it. Convair was VERY late to the jetliner party and paid the price in truncated production of both the CV880 and CV990. The 707's KC-135 military version revolutionized aerial refueling, bringing tankers as fast as jet bombers to the skies. The 707 begat a number of derivative jetliners which to some extent (737NG and 757), continue in production today. I don't dispute that Concorde was far more revolutionary in terms of performance and due to the international partnership that paved the way for Airbus as you said, however the SST does not rival the 707 in significance for what it did for commercial aviation. In addition to being the aircraft mainly responsible for ushering in the jet age, the 707 also paved the way for the even more significant 747 which wouldn't have happened but for the 707's success. As magnificent as Concorde is-and now having flown it I can say that with true conviction-it was still an evolutionary deadend due to a number of unfortunate realities and didn't transform the industry to the extent that the 707 did, sad as it may be to say that. I think almost any aviation historian would agree with me on this.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:02 am

The 707 was by far more important than the novelty Concorde.
The 707 brought us mass transit in the sky's and at a very low price compared to the Concorde.

the 707 was a work horse, the Concorde was a shiny new toy out of reach for millions of people.


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BD1959
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:21 am

Sorry folks, but as an (ex) European my slant on this is totally different. As a "Joe Average" (as our Amercan bretheren seem to call us working-class folks) the 707 was about as accessible as the Concorde. Different eras, but people like myself just could not afford to travel trans-continental which the 707 only flew.

Things changed in the 70s with the impact felt both with the 747 (for long haul scheduled) and the 737 (short haul charters) - the 727 had led the way with charter companies such as Dan Air, but it was really only the 74 and 73 families which had such an "important" impact on people such as me.

Was it so very different in the US? Did the 707 fly trans-US or trunk US routes to such an extent that capacity brought fares within the reach of average Americans? - Because it was the (over) capacity brought by the 747 and 737 which really allowed fares to come down into my sort of budget.

BD1959

 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:46 am

BD1959,

I am not sure about the 60's, but when I first started to fly in the 70's I flew from Washington D.C. to Phoenix on both TWA and American Airlines. On that route both airlines at that time flew 707's almost exclusively. I am not sure what other routes both airlines used the 707 from Washington for, but IAD had a lot of 707's in the 1970's.

Thank you IslandHopper

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
BD1959
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:58 am

Thanks Jeff,

That was a sincere question - and I was pretty sure that 707s must have been used in the US for trunk routes in the 60s - one question though, how would the fares have stacked up against train/greyhound travel? Would fares have been within reach of "ordinary folks" - as I said before, it was only the intro of the 74s and 73s ex UK which brought down fares enough to enable people like me to fly.

Thanks,

BD1959
 
Okie
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:02 am

Bd1959 the airlines in the US were regulated in the early years and pretty much guaranteed a profit no matter what aircraft they had on protected route. After deregulation that a lot of airlines went down the tube so to speak due to competition.
The DC-3 was the first airliner to actually make airlines a profit, the 707 was the first jet airliner to do so. The maintenance costs on recip engines was horrendous, I read some where that the average major airline was changing up to 150 engines per month on the recips, that sounded like an astronomical figure but apparently the norm for the time. So the 707 most likely the most important due to the low operating costs.
The first 20 years or so of the jet age in the US were really exciting. The airlines were putting on the latest and greatest aircraft and not having to worry about competition and the industry was growing at double digit rates every year advertising that you need to be on the latest aircraft to hit the tarmac. Most airlines were buying about anything whether they needed them or not example BN having 2 747's would make about as much sense as WN having a 380 in these times.
You could go to any major airport at the time and see anything from a DC-3, to a 747 and everything in between
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:04 pm

Well BD1959,

Like Okie said routes in the US at that time were regulated. I am not sure how the fares would have compared against Greyhound since I was only a child at that time (1970's). However I do remember that the flights were pretty much always full. We were not super rich, and my mother is always the type to search out a bargin, so I am going to have to say that yes the fares were within reach of regular people.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
BD1959
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:09 pm

Thanks Jeff,

Do you think the 707 was so important then - given that you're talking of a time 15 years after it's introduction - and at a time when the 747 would have taken on alot of the "tradtional" role of the 707 (eg trans Atlantic traffic).

Mark (BD1959)
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:23 pm

Mark,

At that time I feel that the 707 was still very important, but like you said it was transforming from international use to mainly domestic use. Plus, as far as the 747 is concerned I have to wonder if it would have ever been produced if the 707 was not successful. Also, one other area where I believe the 707 helped create a transformation was in cruise ships. I saw a show on the History Channel in the US where they said that before the 707 ships were not just used for vacations but for transportation, but that is a different thread. Also, I believe the 707 has showed it's importance for airliners today by being the inspiration, I do believe, for the 757. I hope I have answered your question Mark.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
Shenzhen
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:31 pm

The 707 was the first swept wing commercial airplane with podded engines under the wing, and the one in which every other large airplane model that is in production today was modeled after (less the 717).

My vote goes to the 707  Smile
 
BD1959
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:02 pm

Jeff,

Always interested in the views of others - many thanks.

Mark

 
BD1959
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:06 pm

Incidentally, I think this is a classic livery on a classic airliner:


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RayChuang
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:43 pm

The 707 is WAY more significant than the Concorde when it came to how it affected air travel.

Remember, when the 707 became operational in the late 1950's it dramatically reduced the time for both US transcontinental and transatlantic travel. Also, unlike the earlier de Havilland Comet, the 707's seating capacity--very large for its time--dramatically increased the number of passengers flying airliners on long routes. The 707's success set the stage for the next major leap forward in air travel, the introduction of widebody jets starting with the 747 in 1970's, which drastically increased the number of airline passengers.
 
Okie
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:58 pm

you also have to remember that at the time of the 707 came on line the interstate highway system was just starting to get constructed. A trip that we can drive now in 2-4hrs was a 10 to 12 hour ordeal with 2 lane highways you went through every small town at 25mph with a lot of stop signs, a local policeman behind every road sign, 55 mph speed limits and of course a bar at each end of everytown.
The cost of flying was not that far out of reach for that part but I would say that the ticket prices today are not that much more than in the mid 70's after the oil embargo which drove prices up and also brought on more efficient engines (high bypass)
While I fly quite a bit, and the ticket price does not usually come out of my pocket and I do not notice that closely, but I can say from memory if you are flying today with 3-4 advance purchase you are flying for not much more than the mid 80's
 
JMChladek
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:18 pm

I tend to think of the 707 in the same breath as the DC-8 in regards to commercial aviation specifically, since both planes were almost like blood brothers in their designs. I'd say in a sense more people tend to remember the 707 instead of the DC-8 a lot like a mention of "Battle of Britain" will usually conjure up an image of a Spitfire instead of a Hurricane.

The 707 (and DC-8) definitely have a higher place in history then Concorde, but Concorde's place is assured from brute performance and the forming of European cooperation on large scale aviation projects. Maybe it is pie in the sky, but in a sense Concorde is no less different then the Wright Flyer in that it took men with dreams and the ambitions to see that dream come through to fulfillment. Especially at a time when the Labour party in the UK pretty much castrated every other major British aviation project that there was on the drawingboard or in the testing stages. The US couldn't do it and the Soviets failed at it, but the English or the French did it. Unfortunately, the winds of fortune favored the subsonic Jumbo jets instead. It will be a long time I feel before something can match or exceed what Concorde did.
 
airsicknessbag
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 5:07 pm


There´s one thing about Concorde which people tend to forget when assessing her role in and impact on aviation as a whole.

In four words, no Concorde - no Airbus.

Let me quote an article from the International Herald Tribune, published on the occasion of the 30th anniversary of Concorde´s maiden flight:

"If Concorde has been only half a success commercially, it was an important political as well as a technological step in the creation of a European commercial aircraft capacity big enough to challenge the United States. The 1962 agreement to develop Concorde between France and Britain was a forerunner of the four-nation agreement to create the Airbus consortium. And many of the technologies first tried on Concorde, including the development of lightweight and heat-resistant materials, aerodynamic surfaces and powerful engines, live on in the present generation of Airbus passenger jets."
end quote

The Boeing/Airbus rivalry was very productive: the presence of a real competitor forced each company to continuously develop new planes with state of the art technology, pushing the limits further and further. Consequently, Concorde has had an enormous impact on aviation - on both sides of the Atlantic.

Daniel Smile
 
RickB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:18 pm

Guys,

Ultimately it depends on how you define 'important'. I chose Concorde because of the technology involved which has filtered down to other aircraft and other markets, also because of its 'unique' status - even now 30 years down the road - it has not been surpassed, beaten or even matched.

The 707 was a wonderful aircraft and it helped millions take to the air - but my point is that if Concorde hadn't of existed no one outside of the military - would of had the chance to experience supersonic transport. If the 707 hadn't of existed then its place would of been taken by a number of other transports that where in the design or production stage at the same time.

The 707 also didn't do that much to bring down the costs of air travel - even in the 60's air travel was prohibitively expensive for most people - the real revolution came with the 747 - if you asked me which was the most important, the 747 or Concorde - the 747 would get my vote everytime.

RickB
 
senliture
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:34 pm

I would say it like this: the Concorde is a piece of art while the 707 is a piece of cake.

Concorde is just like a piece of fine art which is always in the art gallery, sometimes it will travel around the world so that more people can enjoy this marvellous creature.

707 is a piece of cake, which everyone (or most of the people) can enjoy it, can benefit from it. Maybe at the same time there are more airliners in production, in competition with 707, but in no doubt 707 is more success than the others. It at least is the best seller at the time. Without 707, we won't have or maybe many many years later for the 727 and 737 to come to the market. Without 737, Boeing won't have enough money to develop the 747 and thus, we won't have the Boeing family and even the Airbus competitor. We can't underestimate how important the 707 is. It loops yuck, but most of our first invention is yuck as well, right?  Big grin

Both of them are a milestone in aviation, but like what someone said before, they are in different area, one is commercial, one is future. Oh by the way, don't forget our anti-lock braking system is from Concorde. Big grin

Senliture
 
teva
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:48 pm

Even if I recognize the Comet was the first jet, and then a laboratory, he suffered being the first.

Then, for me , the most important is the Caravelle.

Why? Because without Caravelle, no Concorde, then no Airbus. (the French supersonic project was called Super Caravelle)

And it was the first jet with rear mounted engine, and quite successful. It could have been produced more without being copied by Douglas (there was a project that Douglas would produce Caravelle. During the talks, they took all the information they needed, and came back with their DC9 family)

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:57 pm

No doubt: the 707. Much more beautiful and at least much more successful than Concorde.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:55 pm

CONCORDE

Only truly legendary planes go to museums after being retired iso being dumped in the desert....


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BeltwayBandit
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:20 pm

Go to any airport today and tell me how much influence the Concorde had on today's commercial aircraft market.

Both 707 and Concorde were technological leaders (although the Concorde was a greater leap). 707 became a standard and a foundation for the aircraft we all ride in today. Concorde did not have much, if any influence, on today's aircraft.

I would dare say that there are more 707s in museums than there are Concorde on the planet.
 
IslandHopper
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:16 am

Good point Beltway. But the Concorde did bring about some innovations that are used on current airliners. Just glad the socialist British and French taxpayers paid for them instead of me.  Laugh out loud

>I would dare say that there are more 707s in museums than there are Concorde on the planet.

I would think so...wonder if that's true? Anybody know how many 707s are in museums?
 
n757kw
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:52 am

I think that both are important in their specific time periods

The 707 because it changed air travel as we know at the time. Airports were redesigned, longer runways, and reduction of travel time.

The Concorde may not have changed air travel as we know it. But it is a technological marvel. It developed new technology and the beginnings of what ultimately became Airbus.

"What we've got here, is failure to communicate." from Cool Hand Luke
 
GDB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:12 am

It's all about perception really.
I'm generally with RickB on this.
But I would not call close to 3 million pax on Concorde 'small', unless you define it by todays mass market air travel standards, you should remember that many people flew on Concorde relatively cheaply when BA and AF ran extensive charters, and many of them were to destinations as well as pure pleasure flights.
In the late 80's and early 90s the now private BA lamented that they could not get hold of more Concordes.
Another false perception, it was Conservative governments on both sides of the Channel that launched the Concorde project, not left wing ones.
As has been pointed out, 707 was a tremendous trailblazer. for Boeing, the US and air travel generally.
Would it have happened if the USAF had not given Boeing that massive leg up in terms of the huge KC-135 contract? (Always remember that came first, not the civil 707).
If it had not, someone else would have done it. Vickers in the UK nearly did but for an incredibly short sighted move by both BOAC (who thought in turboprop Britannia would suffice in the short term) and the then UK government, by canceling the V.1000 project.
707 had rivals, Comet 4, DC-8, the Convairs, the VC10.
Concorde had none after the 2707 was axed, and it was axed before the fuel crisis, after spending the same amount as the UK did on Concorde, it wasn't being smarter that killed the 2707, the US government was lobbied by anti SST crowd true, but the killer were the delays and redesigns.
The 707 was a tremendous aircraft, but the average joe cannot identify it over other aircraft, which you cannot say about Concorde, the SST shares that with the 747, which was more significant than both the 707 and Concorde.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:13 am

Ask yourself this:

If CONCORDE is less of an achievement, less important than the 707, simply because supersonic flight has not become the standard in today's world, then equally those manned missions to the moon are total non-events too; 'cos how many of us have been on a holiday to 'Tranquility Base' recently?

 
jeffrey1970
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:02 am

I see what you are saying Sabenapilot. However although many people have talked about having passengers on space flights, I don't ever remember that being a goal of NASA. Now the Russian space agency of course has passengers, but only if you have a few million $$$ burning a whole in your pocket. However I still say that while both the 707 and the Concorde were very important to civilian airline service, I feel that the 707 had more of a long term impact.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
na
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:21 am

It´s like answering the question: what was more important for motoring, the Ford Model T or the Rolly-Royce Silver Ghost?
The Concorde is a stunning, unique, but pretty irrelevant product for aviation in general compared to the 707. The 707 was technically of cause by far not as advanced as the pretty arrow Concorde, but it was the first real people-mass-mover jetliner, while the Supersonic bird was/is just a limited elite transport with ridiculous economics.
Its a matter how you look at it. The 707 was surely the far more influential realistic product.
 
RIX
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:25 am

Sabenapilot,

I'd put it slightly different way. Concorde is the same to subsonic jets as moon landings to "regular" orbital flights. Nothing followed the Apollo program (no Moon settlements, no Mars expeditions, ...) while orbital flights are what manned space exploration is today. But who would say the moon program was less an achievement, despite "only" 12 people walked on the moon surface of total "only" 27 that flew to the moon? Same for Concorde...

As it was said above, if there was no 707, many other jet airliners would do the same. Comet, Tu104 (looks like nobody mentioned it... why?!!), DC8 (the great workhorse, still flying in hundreds!), VC10, ..., ..., ... While if there was no Concorde, then the whole supersonic passenger experience of humankind would be about 55 passenger flights of Tu144... like if (back to the previous passage) the whole manned space exploration was only about Yuri Gagarin flight! (Still, strictly speaking, Concorde was not unique - whatever "the Tu144 never actually worked correctly" means, the Soviet SST carried more than 3000 passengers - a number hardly to be ignored!)

In general, it depends on what you call "important". To, me, one of many (and not even the first one) is way less important than one of only two - especially as it is "the 99.9% one" of "the 100% two"...
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:34 am

Undoubtedly the 707! The legacy that the 707 has been indelible in the air transport industry. True, it was not THE 1st jetliner, but look what the 707 has led to. Even its counterparts the DC-8, CV-880/990, and Comet has benefitted from the 707. These four airliners decreased the flight time for air travel, and made it more accessible for the masses to fly from one point to another. The 707 airframe has been flying since the 50s, and are still around, though mostly in the cargo hauling capacity, and VIP airliners in the civilian ranks. In the defence industry, it will be around for another 20 - 30 years, so they estimate.

The Concorde and supersonic transports in general is still a dream, and an era at its end. The Concorde was limited to those who could afford it, not for the masses, though it is a sight to see.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
Ikarus
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 5:48 am

What's more important? A plane or a car? A TV set or a book? An apple or a pear? The internet or a telephone?

No objective standard to measure things by, no substance to this thread, no point...

Regards

Ikarus
 
RIX
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:18 am

"The Concorde was limited to those who could afford it, not for the masses" - absolutely. But there was nothing in aviation history that would never happen if there was no 707. Not so in case of Concorde.

"supersonic transports in general is still a dream" - no. Since January 21st, 1976 it is not a dream but reality. You won't say, "moon landing [in general] is still a dream"! But without Concorde supersonic flight would be either 1/1000 of what it really was (assuming Tu144 still would be built) or nothing at all (assuming it wouldn't)! Now, what would still be a dream without 707? Nothing.
 
RickB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:21 am

Bluewave 707,

How did the comet benefit from the 707 - it was in service well before the 707, it had non stop transatlantic crossings before the 707 and through the UK government even provided some technical data on metal fatigue to the world which benefited all subsequent airliners.

The point is - as your post states - 'these four airliners' - if the 707 hadn't of come along - we would of been talking about 'these three airliners' - the airliner market today wouldn't look much (if any) different other than we may be talking about Airbus v Douglas or Airbus v convair arguments instead of Boeing.

The fact is its hard to be revolutionary when you are one of many (like the 707) - but Concorde was one of one. Thats the reason why its more important.

RickB
 
EGGD
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:27 am

Concorde,

What the 707 introduced was competition, rather than something new, as their were already aircraft that had the same capabilities before the 707 was rolled out. Concorde is the first of its kind, and it made money, and it was profitable, of course being such a huge leap in technology it wasn't going to be easy, but still it was successful.

In the general swing of aviation, neither are outstandingly important in comparison to other airliners, but head on competition, I would say Concorde.
 
shankly
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:34 am

OK this is the deal..you've got to the quiz final and are presented with two blank envelopes, one of which you may open to reveal your prize

One contains a ticket for a ride in Travoltas 707 LHR-JFK

One contains a ticket for a ride in 23rd Octobers BA001 LHR-JFK

...so which one do you want to win?
L1011 - P F M
 
prebennorholm
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 6:53 am

The Concorde was a groundbreaking new plane in line with the DC-3, the DH Comet and the Tu-104.

The B707 on the other hand was Boeing's entry into the jet age along with several others. It was probably the best (with a question mark at the DC-8), at least it received far more orders than its contemporary competitors.

It ended up winning the competitions against its rivals, which indicates a favourable combination of quality, price, customer service etc.

Especially the Comet stumbled in the start, and it was not designed to easily be upgraded with turbofan engines.

Remember that also the 707 was in the beginning a very tame affair. Before turbofan engines became available in the early sixties it could barely haul a few dozen pax over the pond without a healthy tailwind. Just like its contemporry competitors, CV-880, DC-8-30, Comet 4.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
RickB
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RE: What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?

Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:05 am

Shankly,

Its gone a bit quiet after that last post of yours  Wink/being sarcastic

RickB

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