kl911
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Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:10 pm

According to the Dutch radio, the government has approved the takeover this morning in a special meeting. KL wil get 16% of the new holding and keep it's own identity. ( for how long?......)
 
Andreas
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:26 pm

I've read the conditions. 84% AF, 16% KLM, call option for AF to buy these 16%, so it's basically a full-scale takeover. Furthermore the process of privatising AF has been completely separated from the merger talks. Subsequently it is possible for the French government to control KLM.

I have to say, acquisitions camouflaged as mergers are nowadays business as usual, but seldon has the camouflage been so thin. It's a takeover, period!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:28 pm

Why would KL do that as they are , for the moment, still a healthy company with a positive cashflow?
 
Andreas
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:34 pm

That I don't know, really. Possibly management saw a chance to get KLM into a big entity, that might ensure economic survival inthe long run, right now when there is a significant value to KLM shares. It gives/gave them the chance to negotiate the preserving of the brand name and AMS as a hub. When you're down on your knees, you can't do that. Otherwise beats me, but I'm interested in this, too!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Going64
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:37 pm

Wheel of Fortune : What is name of the Dutch national airline? : Air France ..... Ohhh that was an easy one  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Thanks to the KLM management for giving away our own identity. Guess they will get some new shares as well which will be cashed next year after which move they will probably take the last KLM flight to a sunny place.

Two years from now we will see at Schiphol gate D14 a Cessna, D16 a Cessna, D18 ......

Please let me awake out of this nightmare!
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:41 pm

5 runways for maximum 5 airlines serving AMS in 5 years time. That means everybody can have their own private runway! How can the government be so stupid after what happened to Fokker?  Angry  Angry  Angry
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:54 pm

According to Dutch newspaper 'De Telegraaf', NW can still veto a merger between AF/KL. Please let them do that........
 
wgw2707
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:55 pm

Well, your government is basically for the concept of a United Europe (which I am against) and would not mind one bit if one of the Netherland's most famous companies passed into the hands of a foreign entity.

If AF and KL do merge into one airline, I expect they will abolish the national identity completely and change their name to something like EU Air or somesuch, something to give pleasure to the powerful Eurocrats in Brussels, Luxembourg, and Strasbourg, who it looks like will soon rule all of Western Europe.

-WGW
 
eham
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:56 pm

I'm not a very pessimistic person but when I hear this I'm afraid the KLM brand will be vanished within a few years. But the main problem is (in my opinion) the position of Schiphol. I don' t believe AF is very interested in the airport, CDG has still some space to grow and there is a nice airport near Paris that can be developed into a major one, Paris Beauvais. Why introduce more traffic at AMS when you can move some routes to an airport in your own country.

I'm really scared the mainport status for Amsterdam is over  Sad

I REALLY REALLY hope I'm WRONG, time will tell.....
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 6:59 pm

Wgw2707,

You are against an United Europe? Where do you live? UNITED states?
I'm not pro dutch, but just love KL and don't like the French blocking all kind of European decisions.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:19 pm

wgw2707 - I wasn't aware that a secret Luxembourgois cabal ran Europe ! Possibly from inside a secret offshore bank vault. Brussels yes, Strasbourg yes (although what actual power the European Parliament actually has has yet to be demonstrated !).

Whether you're pro or anti a United Europe (although as an American I'm not sure how it impacts you), airline consolidation is inevitable - Europe cannot support 12 or 15 national carriers in a market that is the same size as the US which only supports 5 or 6 major carriers. AF is a biggie, and is going (in the absence of national veto) swallow up carriers whose home market cannot support a large global presence. BA will do the same (IB already, keep an eye on EI), as will LH (they already got the OS group and a significant stake in BD). AZ will have to find a partner (it will be AF I guess), leaving littlies like OA, SR, SN, LG, TP, NI out in the cold.

As an enthusiastic European who benefits enormously from the single market and unrestricted travel/residence, I'm all for it.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Andreas
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:28 pm

Interesting discussion you guys are leading, but what does that have to do with the KLM takeover? That's not a EU problem, that's between AF and KLM and, of course, their respective governments, who are in both cases main shareholders (I know Dutch government owns only 14% or so, but they own the golden vote, that gives the right to veto all decisisons of the management). In this case EU is completely outside, except of course granting approval to the takeover, but if I remember the statements of Palacio-Loyola just 1 year ago, there should be no real problem, there is BA and LH, so there will be no competition problems for AF.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
varig md-11
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:53 pm

I really don't see why the dutch are so concerned...
since your country is sooooooo business oriented and hard-working (hahahaha,give me a break) it shouldn't be a problem KL is taken over by AF as long as it's for the sake of business....of niet??  Acting devilish
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
varig md-11
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 7:57 pm

Going64
at least I hope Kleine Luchtsvaart Maatschappij will fly Embraers and not Cessna....or you have the ATR-42 option....  Acting devilish
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
tripple7
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:04 pm

16% for KLM, is a really low share in the new venture. I am curious how they dertermined that number?
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:07 pm

Maybe if they're very good, AF will let KL have Brit Air's old F100's to play with.
Oooh - jets ! As for the rest, the world will be a TGV-ride to CDG away.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
varig md-11
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:15 pm

yeah....after all Fokkers are dutch: let them go back to their country, I guess our dutch fellows will be so proud to fly on dutch planes
no matter what with our Thalys connecting CDG to AMS at real high speed from beginning of next year, who would want to fly from AMS anymore?

now I see why AF bought these A380....where are the "the A380 is a waste of money and will never work" smart asses nowadays?
AF TW AA NW DL UA CO BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ PC RG IW SE LI TN
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:19 pm

Don't worry, as soon AF is privatized it will take a few years before they're bankrupt. Do you know one Frenchman who knows how to do business without state-aid? Besides that they are really famous for fraude at high levels. In this case it will mean the end of KL/AF and AZ.
 
Going64
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:36 pm

Varig md-11
If you read my posting you will see that IMO there will not be a KLM (L=Luchtvaart!) anymore. Therefore I pointed out that all the gates at Schiphol can be used for small (private) aircrafts like cessna's or maybe even gliders which now fly into small landing strips (e.g. Lelystad).

All I read, firm raping associates needs careful elimination. Oooops looks like an acronym of Air France  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
tripple7
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 8:50 pm

Source: Fortis Bank

From an unnamed source Fortis Bank was made aware that KLM and AF will sign a provisional deal next tuesday.
 
DoorsToManual
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:12 pm

I am continually amazed by the anti- comments I am reading here: Germans against Swiss, Dutch against French, everyone against the English.. Big grin

Honestly, it's very interesting to see how emotionally attached people are to their "national" airlines...they seem to be regarded as an important symbol of identity amongst some of us (and not just here in this forum).

I hope there is a book on this issue! But are all these insults realy necessary? Even with the EU, it seems this latent animosity between people living on opposite sides of the border continues to exist. Probably the old insults are rehearsed during quiet times when everyone gets on with each other...
 
Going64
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:32 pm

Doors to manual
My opinions are mostly based facts and in this case on several economy related studies about possible scenarios after the merger/cooperation/take-over (whatever is applicable). These reports have my interest as it is the area where I have my job.
I don't hate the French, I travel approx. twice a month to Paris and (at least) my skiing holidays are in the French Alpes.
Conclusion: I want to see a stable Dutch economy in the future (read job) and IMO this KLM/AF act is a threat for this.

 
Andreas
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Fri Sep 26, 2003 9:36 pm

...everyone against the Brits... Yes correct, as far as football is concerned and there they deserve it, too! Big grin

But seriously: Aviation is just part of the story. I remember when BMW took over Rover, there was an outcry in England, it sounded like a declaration of war on Germany. The same was to be seen and heard when Lafarge made a hostile takeover bid for BlueCircle. It doesn't really matter which industry we are talking about, takeover offers from foreign companies is for many people a strict no-no, and the yellow-press thrives on it.

But there is one thing I learned during the last 10 years in this strange business: Whenever emotions like patriotism take over, you can just as well close down the brain (and often enough the deal as well).

In this case, I do wonder though, because I always heard, that both companies will carry on business and just try to get synergies by streamlining their admins, routings etc....But when I read this morning (for the first time) the main parts of the deal, I was actually beginning to wonder how to sell this deal in the Netherlands.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sat Sep 27, 2003 3:22 am

That's the whole thing! You cannot sell this in Holland. They promised us a merger where each side would have veto rights, keep their own identity and hub. And now? look at the news! It reminds me of the sad ending of fokker. A German company buys Fokker, breaks it up and sell all the parts...
And you want me to be happy! You all will miss those beautiful blue planes and in return you'll get those boring , dirty white ones....., plus, hospitality is a word that doesn't excist in France. And I live there....
 
LJ
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sat Sep 27, 2003 4:54 am

The main problem is that the French unions will do their best to prevent job cuts in France. Given their loud voice they'll make sure that in the end KLM will pay the bills. Moreover there is a lack of trust which is justified (under the current situation) as the French unions have done their best to fuel this distrust.

We currently have an situation in The Netherlands with an anglo-dutch company named Corus (which resulted from a merger between the Dutch company Hoogovens and British Steel). Both the Dutch as the British suppose to be equal (promises like KLM gets now from Air France), however the british have gradually taken over the board (and thus the company). The current situation is that the Dutch part of the company makes all the money but doesn't have anything to say.

You don't have to be clever that the Dutch unions fear the same situation at AF/KL as the current situation at Corus.

volgende keer dat ik naar nederland vlieg zal het wel via CDG. =(

Probably the only benefit from this merger is that my choice of airlines will be much easier (Lufthansa here I come!!!!)

 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:18 am

I think at the end Lufthansa will be the big winner, which I think is not so bad. I like the Star-alliance and United especially trans-atlantic and hope they will crush the French nationalistic beast.
 
AOMlover
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:37 am

Oh, stop whining for God's sake !!!
I'd be very sad to see KLM disappear but now I'm fed up to read all those comments about AF and the French ppl being so bad, arrogant, etc...! Don't forget to blame your politicians and the KLM CEO too, because they let the deal happen and they're as responsible as the French gov and Mr Spinetta !
You have to cope with it, this is the way the world runs: the bigger eat the smaller, in this case AF buys KLM, etc...and it's just the beginning.
You've got no choice, if AF hadn't bought KLM so maybe KLM would be bought by BA or LH or anything else...
and kl911, if you're not able to appreciate our hospitality just go away or open up your mind...I don't see how we can be that bad...
That's economy, it may be sad, it may be unfair, but it's economy !
Merde à la fin !
After France vs USA, France vs the Netherlands...woohoo, here we go again !
 
kl911
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:45 am

AOMlover,

Sorry, but it's just not my day today. When i'm pissed off I write that way as well I guess. Ofcourse France is great, my wife is french! hey! I was just talking business, which in my opinion they don't take that serious.. It's just a matter of what you're used to I think.
 
LJ
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sun Sep 28, 2003 4:58 am

I'd be very sad to see KLM disappear but now I'm fed up to read all those comments about AF and the French ppl being so bad, arrogant, etc...!

You're right, but its the fact that CDG is a lousy place to connect. Although I had the misfotune of transferring at CDG twice (whereby both flights arrived and left from terminal 2F) I decided to avoid CDG as much as possible (apparantly 1 hour to connect from an intercontinental flight arriving at terminal 2F and my coonecting flight to AMS, which departs at terminal 2F) isn't enough to get my luggage onboard. Moreover there is absolutely nothing to do in Terminal 2F apart from looking at the beautiful terminal.

BTW I personally think it they won't move many flights (not even the flights to Douala) as AF and KL will realise that people prefer not to transfer or some people prefer not to transfer at CDG.
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sun Sep 28, 2003 5:11 am

I heard Air France say it will me a merger like Peugeot/Citroen, which is not bad as it leaves both company's in tact. (own market/customers)

sorta like a cooperation already existing with NW/KLM. Take the best of both and combine it.

if it would not succeed , who really cares, bad management has to be punished, right....

rgds, Plane Holland
 
AMS
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:40 am

In my opinion there are some people with a lack of brains working in the KLM management. I have seen soo many stange business decisions taken by KLM management over the years.

I do like the KL product, however I find it unfortunate, and think that KLM should wake up, and make better decisions.

LH is getting stronger on the Dutch market, and offers a competative product.


Regards,
AMS
 
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Plane Holland
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RE: Dutch Government Approves Merger KL/AF!

Sun Sep 28, 2003 6:56 am

It only takes a few strong carriers to completely rule out KLM (or any other big carrier), look at what a simple lowcost can do, they just prove they get more and more customers from the dutch market, leaving carriers like KLM in the cold..

the only thing KLM can come up with, that's not our type of market we want.. (what kind of attitude is that) (..rather fire some 1400 employees, than try some real innovation..)

I'd say, any market (concerning flights) is your market..