deltaffindfw
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Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:30 am


I guess DFW is the model of what's to come...


Salt Lake City customers now will have two daily flights to Detroit, a new destination from Delta's third largest hub. Customers also will have eight additional daily flights to existing destinations, for a total of 301 daily departures with nonstop service to 66 destinations, compared to 293 departures today. Delta Connection will increase the number of flights from 178 today to 206 by February 2004, while Delta will reduce flights from 115 to 95. The additional Delta Connection flights will be flown by SkyWest and Comair and will feature Bombardier CRJ regional jets.

Delta's new schedule also offers more connecting opportunities for customers during peak hours, and makes the hub more productive, by reducing the number of connecting banks from nine to eight.


 
GSPSPOT
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:32 am

First NW, now DL..... I guess they're trying to reserve mainline jets for longer flights...
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
azjubilee
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:37 am

Uh... DL was the leader in RJs, followed by Continental. NW is so far behind the rest of the majors when it comes to RJs. If you want mainline - FLY NW!!


AZJ
 
LambertMan
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:39 am

Could someone tell me how many daily mainline/RJ departures that DFW and SLC had at their heights?
 
geg2rap
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:46 am

Another mainline pulling out of BIL GEG too bad I will miss the IFE on delta! UA is now the only one that has it out of GEG
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:55 am

Doesn't WN fly to GEG....that would be mainline too.

It's disappointing to see DL reduce SLC further, but I guess its not a big surprise.
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 12:59 am


When I moved to DFW in Jan. 2001, all of the main Terminal E and half of the Satellite was mainline. Now, the entire satellite and five gates of the main terminal is RJ. Last I counted 190+ of the 250 flights a day from DFW are RJ.

Of course, prior to CVG's expansion in 94, DFW was DL's 2nd largest hub.
 
TLHFLA
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:16 am

Any word as to which cities will lose mainline service with the SLC cutbacks? When TPA was my home airport, I always wondered if Delta would ever offer a nonstop SLC flight. The closest we ever got was a short-lived TPA-MSY-SLC flight on a 727. I guess with the cutbacks, the possibility of a TPA-SLC nonstop is less likely  Sad.
Bill in ATL
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:19 am


Customers traveling between Salt Lake City and the following 17 cities will enjoy more frequency of flights: Tucson, Ariz.; Colorado Springs, Colo.; Oakland, Orange County and Ontario, Calif.; Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minn.; Billings, Bozeman, Great Falls, Helena, Kalispell and Missoula, Mont.; Oklahoma City and Tulsa, Okla.; Omaha, Neb.; Rapid City, S.D.; and Washington, D.C. (Dulles).

With the new schedule, all flights at Billings, Great Falls, Helena, Kalispell, Missoula, Pasco and Spokane will be Delta Connection flights, operated by Delta Connection.

 
meister808
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 1:34 am

Yeah, I guess this is how it is going to go. There are a frightening amount of RJs at CVG, with Comair's hub and also the ACA traffic, both working for DL. It's crazy how many small jets are in there now compared to 5 years ago.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:29 am

No Doubt.... SLC.. The next CVG. Too many small markets out of there that DL wants to hold on to. I always wondered why DL wasted money flying a 737 to Helena, MT. They only have 213 pax per day. At best there getting a 50% load with the current schedule between Delta and Horizon.
 
B4REAL
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:32 am

I bet they held some of those routes due to Pilot union agreements going back to the Western Air days. Well knowing that some may not be worthy of a 737.

The press release on the DL website states that its (unknown if it will be a DLConnection or mainline flight) connection to Detroit is a first. Not true, they had a DTW-SLC on a 733 as recently as 1999 (Back when they had the Crown Room @ DTW).

B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
DIA
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:36 am

We get some DL CRJs here in Denver as well. . .from SLC.

With Frontier Horizon, errr, Frontier and the Horizon partnership, there should be a great increase of RJs here in DEN as well. Not to mention UA Express beefing up there RJs as well.

I think it's a sign of things to come.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:41 am

This is not good at all. I was hoping DL would increase it's mainline flights at SLC, not reduce them.  Sad

I love SLC, as all of you know. It's my favourite airport bar none. There's too many RJ's there as it is now, I've got nothing against them, but I'd really like to see more mainline jets.

SLC's population continues to grow. I wonder why there is a need at all to reduce the flights? If anything the demand should be growing.  Sad


The only good thing that could possible come out of this, is that it will force SLC to revise it's 20 year master plan. Their master plan calls for a demolition of the existing terminal, and construction of one that's many, many times bigger, and almost identical to the infrastructure of ATL. I'm serious, if you check it out, the new terminal design, slated to be open within the next 20 years, looks frighteningly similar to Hartsfield Int'l, with parallel concourses and more than 4 times the amount of gate spaces.

If DL is reducing flights, this design may not happen, thankfully. The current SLC terminal is beautiful. It'd kill me to see it demolished since I grew up watching planes from this terminal. I've always been against the SLC master plan.
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:44 am

The problem is the population base in SLC. Without DL, they would only be a Medium Hub airport, and it appears DL will be making SLC a rolling/de-peaked hub to increase the flow of connecting passengers.
 
ord
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:47 am

In answer to someone's question...

Delta mainline at its height in DFW had 256 nonstops (1991 I believe), while SLC had right around 165 (I don't know the exact number but that's real close).
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:50 am

If so then, this means alot of mainline gates will be opened up at SLC....who's going to move into them? The RJ's wont be using these gates unless they are modified, right now they're designed for MD-90s and 737s, on up to L-1011s (which we don't see anymore).

Who will occupy these free gates? The market has to exist, SLC area has more than 4 million area residents, metro has 3 million, there's a high demand for air travel. Heck I was hoping that if I stayed n SLC I could eventually get a job at WN or DL some years down the road...it just doesn't seem to me that DL can vacate some gates without someone else coming in. And flights to major cities like DFW are high in demand or so it seems, so why go to RJ's? This is good for Skywest, not good for me.
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:52 am

Not true, they had a DTW-SLC on a 733 as recently as 1999.

DTW-SLC operated (with B733) from 1999 until September 11, 2001.
 
mopac
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:54 am

GEG goes Connection.... Wow, that surprises me. The last 5 or so times I've flown DL SLC-GEG it's always been a 738 and always been packed.

(Before some of you start in... Yes, I know that a packed flight dosen't mean it's a profitable flight.)

MoPac
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:54 am

 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:55 am

Any chance that SLC will issue incentives to keep DL around?
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 2:59 am

Thanks for that timetable....boy I wish there was that much around today.


What SLC needs is a new hometown airline. Western could do it, if DL is pulling out maybe someone else can give it a try. Western wasn an LCC though, and today, a startup would have to be in order to survive....so no Hawaii flights.  Sad  Sad
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:00 am

DL's just tweaking its SLC operation ...
 
SunValley
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:02 am

DL has allready left the 5 gates it had on the B Concourse. Jet Blue took one of them, and UA is parking SkyWest CRJ's at the B gates. The 2 gates TWA had on the B kconcourse are still vacant.
 
LambertMan
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:05 am

Aloha, I realize that you love SLC as I do STL. But your metro area is right around 1.3-4 million. Utah's population alone is only 2.3 million. But you guys do have the X factor being leisure travel to the ski resorts etc....
They put RJ's on those runs so they can have a higher number of frequency to DFW to please business pax while still filling the plane. Seems as though we are going thru sort of the same thing with cutbacks, albeit mine is to a MUCH greater extent. I doubt DL will vacate the gates, they just won't use them as much. If they do, I think you are pretty much out of luck. STL is probably just as lucrative of a market if not more ( 7 mill o/d at SLC, 10-11 at STL), and no carrier has shown interest in picking up alot of slack except for WN(still don't know what's going to happen). The point is is that you still have 100 mainline almost, and 200 RJ flights, it will still serve your area just fine. No carrier really needs to come in and add flights in your market. I'm not trying to be a pecimist, just a realist.
Good luck SLC! and STL for that matter  Big grin
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:12 am

I had thought the last census showed a combined population of 3 million for SLC metro....SLC "metro" counts in the populations of Ogden, UT, and it's suburbs, and Provo, UT, and it's suburbs as well. Cities farther north of Ogden and south of Provo count as area population.

As least that's what thought I heard or read a while back.


SLC also serves as the major airport for all central utah cities, southern idaho, and much of western Wyoming as well. In southern Idaho Boise is actually farther away than SLC, so most people just drive to SLC for their flights. So the population served is even greater.

That's why I feel like SLC is a very important airport, in that it not only serves Utah, but a huge chunk of the entire region.  Sad



[Edited 2003-10-01 20:13:29]
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:13 am

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if DL pulled out of every small and medium hub market in the US, leaving mainline service to the 29-35 largest US markets and international routes. That's been their trend for some time now. It's a sure fire way to decrease mainline costs through increased aircraft and hub utilization. Filter off the smaller cities and increase frequencies to increase RJ utilization and regional airline efficiencies. I see a day in the not to distant future (2010-2015) where DL has a handfull of 737-800's and 7E7's doing all the mainline work, maybe some 717's for short haul large cap markets and cutting loose everything else to the regionals.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:16 am

Why would DL scale it's service back that much? They're not in bankruptcy.
 
SunValley
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:19 am

Its been being discussed around the SLC station that SONG will be in SLC by April, running SLC-MCO & LAS & PHX & JFK
 
B4REAL
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:20 am

Good catch, IndustrialPete.

I could not remember when the SLC-DTW flight was removed, I just know it was at latest 1999.

B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:25 am

That's just been their trend the last 8 years. It's not about scaling back in terms of seat availability, they have the sam or greater seating capacity through increased numbers of flights with fewer seats per flight. It's creating a balance of keeping fares at a reasonable level and meeting the frequency demands of the business traveler. Take a short hop to the hub and connect to a business class seat to the larger city.

An example. If you had a market with demand of 200 pax a day, you could send them 2 737's or 7 RJs. An example of how a schedule might look for a fictional market.

Today-

3 - 737's to SLC (Short Range)
2 - 757's to CVG (Medium Range)
1 - 767 to ATL (Long Range)

Tomorrow-

7 - CRJ-700's to SLC (Short Range)
4/5 - 737's to CVG (Medium Range)
3 - 757's to ATL (Long Range)

1 - 767/7E7 to an International Destination

[Edited 2003-10-01 20:30:18]
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:28 am

Why would DL scale it's service back that much? They're not in bankruptcy.

They're matching capacity to demand / maximum yields / etc. I don't think it's a secret that DL has been unhappy with SLC's performance for many years, and now they're taking action... SLC is gradually becoming a regional hub - not bad considering DL could've abandoned the place (except for, of course, flights to ATL)...
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:28 am


I really like the frequency aspect as long as the length of the flight is taken into account. Now, DL competes with AA at DFW when it comes to frequency for most short range flights. I like that MSY is now 8x/day vs 3x before. However, the down side is that the RJ is used on longer flights now like OAK, SNA, and SAV.
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:30 am

It sounds as though DTW-SLC will be operated with mainline jets ...
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 3:31 am

That would make sense. Large city, 2-3 flights per day possible with one 737-800.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:28 am

For those who fear that this will continue, Delta is getting pretty close to their stated goal of having an RJ fleet of about 400 a/c. There may be some trading going on between RJ's and mainline but this really should represent most of the RJ replacement flying, it would appear.
The question is where this capacity is going. Delta is bringing pilots back at the same time they are cutting mainline flights at SLC. There has to be an increase of service somewhere.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:41 am

A question, why would Delta be unhappy with SLC's performance. Every time I've been there most flights have left pretty well full, and people connect through SLC very conveniently. Some of the flights in the very late evening and very early morning don't leave with full loads, but aside from that SLC seems to perform very well.

What would leave SLC at a disadvantage? Even if the population isn't as big as L.A. for example, the amount of through traffic and local demand for air travel has kept flights pretty full. If delta is operating full flights and still making a loss, then it's their own fault, because a full load SHOULD be profitable.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:51 am

The same reason as STL. Full flights, but low yields due to fewer O&D pax, which is where airlines make their big bucks...
 
geg2rap
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:52 am

Yes WN does fly to GEG but no IFE. I think DL will send CRJ 700 up to GEG and say BIL wouldn't you think? They said Comair and Skywest would do the flights. So I assume the 700 would be in the picture. I do like NW cause they do have mainline where I fly. I don't know why but it seems to be better service. GEG is losing seats on WN too when LAS service starts hopefully F9 will come into town, tell me if I am wrong but there are some open gate in the B concourse right? And yes last several times I have been on the 737 it has been totally packed on DL
 
andersjt
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:55 am

Aloha717200 -

A full load on a mainline jet may not be as profitable as on an RJ for Delta.

Delta has always been good at "yield management." In setting airfares, it is all about supply and demand. Delta may be changing to increase the number of flights using RJ's, but the number of available seats on any flight is reduced. You market to a business traveler, where scheduling is important vs. airfare, and you can sell the seat at a higher fare. By using a mainline jet, the supply at any given flight time is greater, the demand for any city pair is the same; therefore you have more available seats that you need to fill at lower fares.

In economics, if demand is decreasing, or remaining unchanged, you raise prices by lowering the supply of the product available.

Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
 
dulleswatcher
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:58 am

Wonder if the SLC trend could begin to affect international flights: airlines choosing long, thin direct routes to cater to business travelers and to eliminate transfers and boost frequencies? if so, it would tend to support boeing's view of the A380. i DON'T want to start another useless a vs b flame war, but you gotta admit that the trends in DFW, SLC, etc. support the boeing viewpoint. and even on custom-made A380 routes like DEL-FRA for LH, a simple decision by the Indian gov't to jettison its ludicrous support of Air India to deny additional frequencies would destroy the need for an A380 on that route. Similarly, expansion at Heathrow may also reduce the need for A380 passenger loads. are we looking at a future in which the 7E7 and A330 are used to pursue "RJ-ization" of international routes? welcome your thoughts.
Sic Semper Tyrannis
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:10 am

What does O&D traffic mean?
 
SunValley
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:13 am

origin & destination
 
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fanoftristars
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:41 am

This was reported on the news last night here in SLC. I guess some Delta officials were in town, and they were putting a spin on it that they were increasing service at SLC (more flights total)

Honestly, after just taking a traveling position with my company, who tries to put us on DL whenever they can, having more non-stop flights is a benefit to me (a business traveler), regardless of the aircraft size.

From an enthusiast's standpoint, I was sad to see the L1011 go, I was sad to see the 727 go, I'll be sad to see more mainline aircraft go... Flying will never be the same again  Sad Spotting CRJ's at SLC is never as fun as spotting all the variety of mainline that used to fly here! There's nothing like standing at the end of 34R when a Fedex DC10 or a DL 764 flies overhead on final
"FLY DELTA JETS"
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:00 am

Fanoftristars, where do you work at in SLC? Just curious. I may have seen you a couple times and not known it.  Smile

 
jrlander
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:32 am

Another issue that ought to be considered here is the Delta mainline fleet. By retiring the 727's, L-1011's, and MD-11's over the last few years, they have reduced the number of planes in their fleet. In addition they are moving 1/3 of their 757 fleet to Song. With so many larger planes out of mainline, smaller planes have to make up the difference where demand calls for it. The only planes that they are still taking at the moment are RJ's, so logic would lead one to see more RJ's replacing mainline flying.
 
bucky707
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:32 am

"A full load on a mainline jet may not be as profitable as on an RJ for Delta.

Delta has always been good at "yield management." In setting airfares, it is all about supply and demand. Delta may be changing to increase the number of flights using RJ's, but the number of available seats on any flight is reduced. You market to a business traveler, where scheduling is important vs. airfare, and you can sell the seat at a higher fare. By using a mainline jet, the supply at any given flight time is greater, the demand for any city pair is the same; therefore you have more available seats that you need to fill at lower fares.

In economics, if demand is decreasing, or remaining unchanged, you raise prices by lowering the supply of the product available."


There is one problem with yeild management. When you are filling a 737 size aircraft, it means the demand is there for that number of seats, even though your yeild may not be that great. If you pull out a number of seats in an effort at yeild management, you are doing two things. One, the seats that get cut are not the cheap seats, so your yield will go up. But two, you are leaving behind the passengers who were flying on those cheap seats. The demand is still there and at some point it will be filled by another carrier. When another carrier comes in to try and capture those low fare passengers, that carrier will inevitibly steal away some of your higher fare passengers too. Eventually you will loose that market entirely.

 
andersjt
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:41 am

Buck707 - to respond to your statement

"One, the seats that get cut are not the cheap seats, so your yield will go up. But two, you are leaving behind the passengers who were flying on those cheap seats. The demand is still there and at some point it will be filled by another carrier. When another carrier comes in to try and capture those low fare passengers, that carrier will inevitibly steal away some of your higher fare passengers too."

Supply is maintained by frequency, instead of one 737, they bring in 3 RJ's. Some RJ flights will have more demand than others (shorter connecting times), and if you can get the higher fare, go for it. The other component to profit is that the RJ is cheaper to operate. You have higher overall yield on the RJ, and it is operated at a lower cost to DL. On the larger jet, the yields get diluted, and they are more expensive to operate. Yes, DL tries to sell seats at any price it can get (does it still have an ownership interest in Priceline.com?), that will go to offset costs of the larger jet, but I'm sure the economics of the RJ's prevail, or else they wouldn't be going with this strategy.
Oh how I long for the day when the skies were truly Friendly!
 
Guest

RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:44 am

Wonder if the SLC trend could begin to affect international flights: airlines choosing long, thin direct routes to cater to business travelers and to eliminate transfers and boost frequencies? if so, it would tend to support boeing's view of the A380. i DON'T want to start another useless a vs b flame war, but you gotta admit that the trends in DFW, SLC, etc. support the boeing viewpoint.

Ding Ding Ding.... We have a winner.

Dead on my friend. Dead on. For some airlines, particularly in countries where only one or two airlines exist, the A-380 will be a huge success. In the US, and other countries that have a high concentration of air travel, the 7E7 will make more sense.

Limited resources force them into a situation of 1 or 2 flights per day from their country to the US or other Countries. For the US, there is a huge Domestic market which makes some "International Carriers" look like small potatoes. For the US carriers with undreds of routes and hundreds of aircraft it makes more sense to increase the frequency to meet the frequency of flights at the hubs, not only for Domestic Service, but for International Service as well.
 
MSPXJGuy
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RE: Salt Lake Becomes More RJ

Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:51 am

Just a small little tidbit of info, as of Oct 26th, (my birthday)  Smile Mesaba Airlines will be sending to flights a day with ARJ service for Northwest. So far looking through reservations they aren't booked solid yet but they might be eventually. Its kind of nice because I might be able to take my brother snowboarding out there.