Delta777Jet
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Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:46 am

I`m visited the Lufthansa Technik Base in Hamburg yesterday. A Lufthansa Mechanic told me that Lufthansa will buy B-777 to replace A-340-200/300 on the routed to the Middle East and Northamerica. I told him that I only heard about the thoughts of buying the 7E7, whenever it will be launched, but he told me that Lufthansa will only keep A-340-300/600 the A-330-200/300 and put the 777 on routes like DXB, CAI, TLV, BOS, PDX etc.
Did anyone else got such info?
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wingman
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 7:55 am

That's German humor for you. I'm sure he was either teasing or woefully misinformed. This simply will not happen ever. period. full stop.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 8:02 am

Hilarious! Those Germans are a riot.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:38 am

Not so fast.......

LH has been rumoured for a while now to be a launch customer for the 772LRF.

Stay tuned.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
BAJMowiec
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:59 am

Hey,

While it is possible for LH to order the triple seven, why should they, I mean Airbus would mean a ''home-grown'' purchase, which means savings. Plus, doesnt the A340-300 offer the same capacity as the 772 ?Thus, why not order new A343 ? Nah, Boeing is a rare thing with Lufthansa, not counting the 744 and the 733/5, which I think will soon be replaced. Although a 772 in LH colors would look pretty nice, don't you agree ? I can already see it docked at FRA ...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Piotrek
 
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yyz717
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:02 am

LH has been rumoured for a while now to be a launch customer for the 772LRF.

I've read the same rumour also.

The 7E7 would be a perfect replacement for the A300/310 fleet.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
gigneil
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:07 am

LH has repeatedly stated an interest in maintaining a diverse fleet.

They own one metric shitload of 744s, and gave the 753 a serious try by having Condor op some of their regular A300 flights.

The 7E7, as currently drawn, sounds like a good fit for them.

The 777, not so much.

The 777LRF they likely need... they can't get their hands on enuf M11s.

N
 
N79969
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:02 am

I tend to agree with Wingman. Lufthansa only speaks of future Boeing orders simply to keep the Airbus salesforce on their toes and nothing more.

In any case, I would think it would be a waste for them to buy 777s at this point since they operate every Airbus model currently available including subvariants.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:22 am

LH will unlikely order the 777 due to the fact they're committed to the A340-300/600 fleet.

However, LH could become a launch customer for the 4,000 nautical mile range version of the Boeing 7E7, mostly due to the fact Airbus isn't interested in a widebody jet smaller than the A330-200.
 
osteogenesis
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:26 am

RayChuang,

mostly due to the fact Airbus isn't interested in a widebody jet smaller than the A330-200.

Has Airbus already officially accepted this?
 
na
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 4:46 pm

Hopefully not. Aside from the fact that such an oddball wouldn´t fit into LHs fleet I cannot stand all these 777s popping up like boring soap operas on TV. Everywhere the same. Nice aircraft but there are too many.
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:09 pm

7E7 - Yes, definitely, and Boeing already has a timing advantage over Airbus as far as development is concerned (if they don't come up with a 330 version, that is), and LH urgently needs aircraft to replace 300/310 (somewhat sad thought, I've grown quite accustomed to the 300s, nice equipment, reliable, good performance).


777, well I've never heard that rumour, but then I don't deal with LH on a weekly basis anymore as was the case 3 years ago, so there are a lot more guys here to give competent statements. Just don't forget: LH management is mainly guys from LH Technik, and LH Technik does deal a lot more with Boeing equipment than LH Passage, as they do maintenance for hundreds of other airlines.
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Bobs89irocz
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:26 pm

That would be SWEET if LH bought the 777, the ONLY reason i say that is because that plane would look awsome...lol.

(ok im out of my dream world and not thinking of buying airplanes because they would look cool in there color schemes anymore)

However, i personally think it would be VERY inappropriate for LH to buy the triple 7. Think about it. LH is a big Airbus buyer and i also (if i remember right) think LH supports Airbus on the financial end too...i might be mistaken. I could see LH MAYBE buy the 7E7 but thats years down the road and that will just replace the 300 and the 310. What about the older A340's? I think more A340's will replace them or they will go with the 330 or something. Im sure they will not go with the 777. Think of crew training cost, the 777 has NO comonality with any other aircraft in there fleet exept the 744. Plus there maintnace docs would have to be redone at there overhaul facilitys just for this one type of aircraft. I truly believe this is a rumor based on keeping Airbus on its toes.

Me being a Boeing fan would LOVE to see LH drop there Airbuses and go Boeing but that isnt going to happin so im not gonna talk about it, just staiting that a even a big boeing fan knows this wouldnt be a bad move when they have there fleet establish the way they do now.
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:40 pm

LH supporting Airbus on the financial end?

What do you mean by that?

LH does own no stake whatsoever in Airbus, and they press Airbus to get the highest-possible discounts on their aircraft, so to say they support them financially sounds a bit like a paradoxon.

And besides LH is in no position to support other companies except Star Alliance partner airlines that are in trouble, end even then, they only grant fully securitized senior loans.
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Bobs89irocz
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:50 pm

Dude keep your pants on.....thats why i said they MIGHT support Airbus i wasnt sure, i was basically asking a question.

I got wind of something not to long ago that AF, LH and 1 other European airline have some sort of say-so in business moves in Airbus, basically owning part of Airbus. Its obvious i am wrong (good thing) and im glad that is cleared up.

But Airbus is goverment funded arent they? That sure would be nice for Boeing to have some sort of fall back like that huh?
 
bobrayner
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 5:56 pm

Lufthansa, 777?

It wouldn't fit - but Lufthansa seem to get a kick out of operating a diverse fleet; nothing would surprise me any more.

They were launch customer for Connexion, a few months ago...

But Airbus is goverment funded arent they? That sure would be nice for Boeing to have some sort of fall back like that huh?

That's a whole other can of worms! Better put on a flameproof suit...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cunning linguist
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 6:08 pm

Maybe you should just NOT try to read between the lines of other people's postings. I was trying to answer your question which was, all in all, rather unclear, and I definitely kept my pants on. I'm afraid way too many guys here on this forum seem to take aviation as an emotional thing... I don't, it's business as usual.
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JAL
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 10:25 pm

Not very likely but the 7E7 is a possibility.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
airbazar
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:14 pm

It wouldn't be a terrible surprise if they bought the 777 to be operated by Condor which currently has 757's and 767's, and given that Condor is increasingly taking over so many of LH's medium-haul routes.
 
johnnybgoode
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:27 pm

in the early 90s, LH did examine the 777 as a possible replacement for its 747-200s. at that time, there was no A340-600 in sight, and the 772 is still bigger than the A343.
but then again, show me one major airline that did not consider the 777 in the early 90s.

cheers
daniel
If only pure sweetness was offered, why's this bitter taste left in my mouth.
 
LHSTR
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:35 pm

I think Condor is only operating the B767s for LH at the moment, as LH, back before Iraq and Sars, did not have enough wide-bodies to support the growing long-haul network.

However, I fail to see how Condor is taking over so many LH routes.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:39 pm

It does make sense if Lufthansa says that they would order a 777 just to keep Airbus scared and cutting them deals. If Lufthansa said that they would NEVER order a 777, Airbus could get away with charging higher prices to them.

Although I think a 777 would look good in LH colors, I don't see it happening
 
CO2BGR
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Tue Oct 07, 2003 11:55 pm

All I have to say is keep dreaming.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
DIA
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 12:10 am

Never say never as we learned last night on MNF. Only if LH says, "There is absolutley no chance of LH ever ordering 777s." And even at that I'd be cautious to say "never". We're dealing with the airline industry here. . .an indusrty proven to be speculative at best when it comes to decision making and track records.
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Leskova
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:06 pm

Hi,

I'm not quite sure yet, why so many of you would consider a LH 777 such a great thing - but maybe that's just my view, since I'm one of those persons trying to get passengers on planes (no, not gate agent... travel agent).

First of all, judging from my own flights, I'll prefer a 343 over a 777 anytime - it's so much quieter in there. Also, and this is something I've heard from quite a lot of customers as well, if I pay in excess of 3000 Euros for a flight from Germany to Brazil in Business Class - on most airlines it'll actually be in excess of 5000 Euros - I'd be quite unimpressed if I actually got a middle seat, which won't happen on an A340, or A330 or B767 (which isn't used on that route anymore): it can happen on a B777 or B747 - which actually made a client book LH First Class just a short while ago...

Maybe I should start preferring Boeings after all...

But since LH - just like most airlines - is more concerned about the bottom line than if passengers are comfortable, you can bet that they'll keep comparing Airbusses and Boeings and not sign any type of exclusivity contract - you never know what the manufacturers will be building in 10-15 years and if that even comes close to what you need then...

One final note on this dreadful discussion that constantly keeps popping up about Airbus being Government funded: yes, Airbus was built up by several european governments, but any money given to Airbus these days is on the basis of loans, not subsidies. And you can be very sure that the European Commission would cut off any subsidies at an early stage - just look at what happened at some airlines within the last years.

And seeing all the programmes that Boeing is being awarded, I really have trouble not seeing the US Government as - to say it bluntly - subsidising Boeing... at least the subsidies for Airbus during the pre-EADS-times were officially declared subsidies and not hidden in some research programme that no-one considered necessary.


Having said all that - LH ordering 777s? Don't see that happening, wouldn't fit the fleet - and as they've ordered 330s for more or less precisely the routes that the original message mentioned, I really can't see what they would gain by putting a completely new type into their fleet - considering that they declined ordering 753s a while back with the comment "that would essentially be an orphaned fleet - nothing else in our fleet has commonality so we'd have to buy everything new, and dedicated, for it".

I'd say the same applies to the 777, at least in the pax version - concerning the freighter, I do see that coming as soon as the MD11 conversion market dries up.

That's it from me for now...

Frank


Smile - it confuses people!
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 4:27 pm

Leskova, I really appreciated reading your post, but be warned: You've said so many things to get the B side in our usual A vs. B wars go completely berserk, you better put on your asbestos suit...but let me tell you, I fully agree on each and every point you've made, especially the part about the A340: When you travel a lot like myself, you don't react too enthusiastically anymore on spectacular take-off performances, steep climbings and powerful sound of the engines, you just want to get from A to B, in time (ok, that has nothing to do with the aircraft) and relaxed (that is something that goes much better on a 340 than on any other aircraft, even 744 upper deck, which comes very close, though!). Your clients are right, no doubt about that!

Regards

Andreas
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:24 pm





Y A W N !


Don't they both make great aeroplanes!?



M H



come visit the south pacific
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 6:34 pm

Y A W N too!

Of course they do Motorhussy, and nobody in his right mind will contradict that, but noise level in the 340 is just lower than in the 777, and as far as the seating is concerned: if you fly business, you don't want to have people on either side of you, trust me on this one...and nothing more has been said by Leskova!
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:00 pm

Flying Business - I do almost exclusively - it depends on the airlines configuration.

Airbus, rightly, prides itself on saying there is no intermediate seat in Business, yet Emirates, that for some reason gets a lot of accolades (haven't flown them yet so won't criticise), puts a middle seat in the A332 configuration - unlike almost every other A330 operator. Will this be the same when the A345 and A346 arrive?

They also have 10 abreast in 777 economy as opposed to 9 in other premium airlines (like Singapore and Cathay).

Yep noise level is lower on A340's than 777, but for me, living in beautifully isolated and remote New Zealand, if I'm going to fly long-haul, I want two engines on my aircraft - on each wing!

So put me in a 747, A340 or A380 if I'm headed non-stop to South America or North America - there's a lot of Ocean with very little land in between.
come visit the south pacific
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:15 pm

Sorry I'm a Star Alliance Flyer (which doesn't come as a big surprise given the fact that I work in FRA Big grin). Never had the pleasure of flying Emirates, but I've heard from several reliable sources that these guys put as much seats as possible in each row of the aircraft, so there might be some truth to it.

Funny that you mention it, I hear this thing about the 4 engines when flying a long time over water quite often...I never thought much about it, maybe because when you fly LH, you usually have 4 engines on the long-haul aircraft (744 and 343, only now they fly 330 and some leased 767 with an extremely crappy seating in economy on the North Atlantic services). On the other, those few occasions on 767, 777 and 757, I didn't exactly feel unsafe.
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
Leskova
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:16 pm

I just checked - you're right, Motorhussy, they really have a 2-3-2 config in their 332s (I've actually never sold them in C-Class, mostly Y and an occasional F)... together with the 3-4-3 in Y in the 777, I really do wonder how they've managed to get so many awards.

I guess it's probably time to start a new thread with the "which airline puts too many seats in a row" as topic... Big grin

And, Andreas, you're right - the B747-400 Upperdeck does come quite close to the A340 in terms of silence... I just returned to Germany on Monday from Sao Paulo in LHs 744 "Potsdam" - that really is a nice way to spend 12 hours...  Big grin
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:31 pm

Andreas

Flying out of Auckland non-stop to Los Angeles, Santiago or Buenos Aires (particularly the latter two), one flies over very isolated expanses of the world's largest ocean and when flying to South America, one flies over part of the Antarctic circle to boot.

It is reassuring to have four engines with flights over 14 hours and only distant diversion airports.

BTW, living in New Zealand, I too am a Star Alliance flyer:
Air New Zealand
Singapore Airlines
Thai Airways
United have stopped for the time being.
come visit the south pacific
 
Andreas
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 7:54 pm

Good to hear you're Star, too Big grin, I only mentioned it to illustrate why I've never flown Emirates, even going on holidays in Dubai, I fly LH spending bonus miles.

I guess you're right, when you've got the Pacific and/or Antarctica below the aircraft, terms are somewhat different.
I have to admit I never crossed the Pacific, when I go to the Pacific rim, I fly east-bound from FRA, and even then, flying mostly over land, I never (as far as I remember) had less than 3 engines on the a/c (Thai MD-11 once), mostly 4 of them, on 747s, (-200, -300, -400), 340-200s and 340-300s.


Leskova: So you flew First, ok, now, that's really nice Big grin
I know it's only VfB but I like it!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:32 pm

When LH order 777´s is when USA nuke Finkelwierder/Toulouse......
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JGPH1A
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:34 pm

Solnabo

Dubbya is president, remember - it COULD happen !
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Leskova
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Wed Oct 08, 2003 8:43 pm

Andreas: Well, someone had to suffer through it Big grin, and since I generally like knowing what my customers get when they buy tickets - esp. since quite a lot of them these days want to know a lot about seating configs, seat pitch, reclinability, etc...

Much too often for my own liking I find myself in the rear half of the cabin though - but product experience can simply not be replaced by reading statistics about how far the seats are apart... and trying to say something about the service on board by reading what airlines say in brochures or websites...

... and I'll have to be in the back of a cabin again a few times, now that my LH M&M/FTL-Account took quite a beating because of that flight to Brazil...  Big grin

Across the north atlantic I really don't care if I'm flying with 2, 3 or 4 engines on the plane: that distance is short enough.

Anything that crosses the equator from here as well as Far East and Pacific routes, I'll prefer something with 4 engines every time (btw.: Folks, please don't bring up the point that statistics prove that 2-engined aircraft have less inflight-shutdowns than 4-engined ones: what I'm talking about here is a plain and simple gut-feeling, and - knowing that you can prove just about any arguement with the right statistic - even or especially contradicting arguements - you wouldn't be able to through enough numbers at me to change my mind about this point anyhow, so let's just not waste bandwidth by trying).
Smile - it confuses people!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:05 am

Every airline has to consider products from both Airbus and Boeing or they would be considered negligent to their owners. I doubt seriously that we will see LH commit to the 777 or any other currently flying Boeing product since Airbus produces an aircraft that fairly closely approximates everything Boeing produces and vice versa.

However, Boeing recognizes that the 7E7 and the family that will have to follow it present a once in 50 year opportunity for Boeing to reassert its traditional leadership in commercial jets. Airbus has built their aircraft family based on a couple principles desired by airlines which Boeing has not incoporated in their products including commonality, fly by wire technology, and optimized hull size (in my mind Airbus has the ideal diameter for both their widebody and narrowbody families). While Boeing obviously has done many things right, they have left some significant holes in their product line which Airbus has capitalized on. Boeing knows that Airbus has committed most of its development funds to the A380 and it is now up to Boeing to revamp its entire product line to gain an advantage over Airbus products. Until they do, it is quite unlikely that any current predominant Airbus customers will defect to Boeing.
 
hoons90
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 12:12 am

I think the A330/A340s do the job well for LH.. A 777 wouldn't be too necessery, but for an A300/A310 replacement the 7E7 sounds ok.. We will just have to wait and see... Who knows, LH might really order the 777 someday...
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
brutie
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:52 am

It is reassuring to have four engines with flights over 14 hours and only distant diversion airports.

I'm totally with you on that one Motorhussy - that's why I'm really hoping that Air NZ go for the A346 rather than the B777.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:46 am

It is reassuring to have four engines with flights over 14 hours and only distant diversion airports

Oh it is... how?

I'd much prefer a twin for any long-distance/over-water flight; any day
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Sabena332
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RE: Lufthansa To Order B-777?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 8:48 am

We will not order the 777 because we are not Air France!

signed

Wolfgang Myerhuber (Lufthansa CEO)
NZ1's mother is a disgusting crack-whore and his father is a worthless alcoholic!

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