aviatortj
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 am

NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:49 am

Since the ARJs are reconfigured for the scope clause, if I understand it correctly, why not put them in a 85 seat config and fly them with mainline pilots? I'm sure this is a HUGE oversimplification, but I am just wondering if it is possible.

~TJ
 
copaair737
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:00 am

RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:04 am

because if they are under the express banner, the pilots are paid less. they save money with express. plus, mesaba, a separate company from NW owns and operates them.

-Copa
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
gigneil
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:06 am

I think NW owns them and leases them to Mesaba.

N
 
Guest

RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 3:53 am

Because then they'd have to pay the pilots $85,000+ instead of $10,000+... the rest of the flight crew would get raises, too!
 
siuust
Posts: 62
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:27 pm

RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:22 am

Anyone know exactly how much a Junior DC-9 Capt. makes versus a Senior RJ-85 Capt?
 
pilottim747
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:19 am

I found a little info on that pay scales. A second year Mesaba FO flying the ARJ makes about $30/hr while a second year NWA FO makes about $60/hr flying the DC-9s. These are just ballpark numbers because I don't have a NWA pilot contract. I found a copy of the Mesaba Airlines pilot contract (from 1996) online but its not the easiest thing to read. Either way, however, there is a large difference in labor costs from NWA mainline to Mesaba.

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
aviatortj
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:52 am

So if these planes were to be reconfigured to seating capacity and mainline pilots flew them, would they lose their profitability? Is it better for them to just send the planes back and decrease capacity or cheaper to replace six year old planes?

~TJ
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Sat Oct 11, 2003 2:21 am

Crystal ball sees more Pinnacle CRJ-200's and an order for the CRJ-700 w/ 69 seats. Mesaba continues with the SF340's.....
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
siuust
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Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:27 pm

RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:19 am

Tjwgrr, the only airline allowed to operate RJ's with more than 50 seats under the NW pilots contracts scope clause is Mesaba. If NW were to order anything bigger than the current CRJ-200 series Mesaba would have to fly it. This was discussed in another post on the same topic.

Even if the RJ-85's were reconfigured and sent into mainline service they would still expensive to operate. It's the whole 4 engines versus 2 engines argument. Twice as many time replace parts, two more engines to keep oil in etc... Fuel wise they are not much more effcient than a DC-9-10 either, fuel loads can be identical on some routes (STL, FAR, GRB to name a few). Keep in mind the ARJ carries fewer people to.
 
SuperDash
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:26 am

Cost, Cost and Cost. Mesaba pilots make less money and it keeps a fleet type out of NWA. The trickle up cost of training pilots is huge. Less fleet types is a good thing. Pushing regional airplanes to regional partners is cost effective to NW in more than one way.
 
Guest

RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Sat Oct 11, 2003 11:58 am

Tjwgrr, the only airline allowed to operate RJ's with more than 50 seats under the NW pilots contracts scope clause is Mesaba.

I doubt many NW pilots would care if the company sought permission to fly 36 total 69-seat regional aircraft among all their Airlink partners (instead of just Mesaba). Many low-senority NW pilots feel threatened by Mesaba/Pinnacle (and rightfully so!) as it is and could careless if Mesaba went on strike.

[Edited 2003-10-11 05:00:22]
 
azjubilee
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Mon Oct 13, 2003 3:09 pm

XJ FO pay:

0-6mo - $18.21/hr
6mo-1yr - $20.35
1-2yrs - $24.40
2-3yrs - $26.79
blah blah blah

The contract was extended 2 years and as it was done, the jet FO payscale was eliminated. jet and Saab Fos make the same amount of money.

IP - you're right - NW pilots don't care if we go on strike. We're not striking for them, we're striking for us. Anyhow, XJ pilos FULLY suuported the NW pilots while they were on strike. I'm not confident though, in the reciprocity of support unfortunately.

Even if NW bought CRj70s it specifies in the contract that Mesaba will be the only ones to operate the Avros and specifies only avros with more than 55 seats. It was a grandfathered clause into their contract after their strike. They'd have to make contract language changes to make that one work.

Sit back and relax... enjoy the bumpy ride. It's getting uglier by the day.

BTW - we're voting on wehter to strike or not for the next few weeks.


AZJ

 
aviatortj
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Mon Oct 13, 2003 5:35 pm

Well AZJ, I am pretty confident in saying that you have the people of Minneapolis behind you with the negotiations etc. I know personally I would rather have my hometown XJ flying me around! Best of luck over the next few months, I know there are a couple of us here that hope to be flying next to you in a few years.  Smile

So is XJ limited to 69 seat Avros or are they the only ones to get 69 seaters period?

~TJ
 
azjubilee
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RE: NW RJ-85: Why Not Mainline?

Tue Oct 14, 2003 2:11 am

Aviatorj -

You're right on both accounts. The avros were arriving on property prior to the NW strike in 1998 and they were one of the main reasons why they were on strike. It's called scope (job protection) and these planes have always been coveted by the NW pilots. NW had envisioned about 70 of these avros but since 36 were on their way with no options exersized that's what the magic number became and they were grandfathered into the NW contract. So - in their contract it says a few things regarding scope. Such as unlimited RJs with less than 50 seats (thus the 44 seaters) The amount of RJs with 50 seats will be a function of the mainline narrowbody fleet. Hence, more NW airbusses and 757s that are aquired more 50 seaters can arrive. And as far as a/c with more than 55 seats it says specifically that only 36 of them are allowed to be operated and that Mesaba AIRLINES must operate them. It makes specific reference to the avro as well - not some generic 70 seater.
Aside from aircraft scope it also mentions in their contract that Pinnacle and Mesaba will be the only AIRLINK carriers to fly for NW. Any new company must be approved by NW pilots.

Hope to see you at a rejuventated XJ in the near future! I'm comitted to XJ and it's future, this is just a bump in the road. They're going to fire me before I leave, I'm standing firm until the bitter end.

AZJ