rockyracoon
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Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:07 pm

How much longer will aloha keep their 732's? I road on a couple a few years back HNL-LIH-HNL and they were just fine for the short trip but seemed a little ragged. Are they considering the 717 or Erj190?


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Tim
 
aq737
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:31 pm

AQ was considering 717s until HA purchased them, and then that's when they dropped the idea. AQ will work their 732s for a while longer. I'm sure the whole HA thing with fleet renewal is a warning for AQ, but they are still receiving 73Gs (their fleet is now 10).

The people in Hawaii demand mainline jet service. Airlines like Mahalo Air started up wit turboprops quickly to be put out of business. Island Air, a subsiderary of AQ op's DHC-8-100s to smaller regional communities where larger jet service is not required or uneconomoic or not supported. For example: Kaunakakai (Molokai) is served by HA with 717s only twice daily where as AQ serves MKK with Dash-8s 5 or 6 times daily. However airports like Kapalua (Maui) cannot support larger aircraft. HA does not serve Kapalua, but AQ does.

AQ may in the future use the EMB-190 or similar large regional jet, but I don't see it in the near future.

Aq737
 
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aloha73g
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 1:46 pm

There was talk of replacing the 200s with 717s, but that died. Don't expect them to use 737-700s either--they're too big. No props either, the market doesn't like them.

Suffice it to say, the 200s still perform great on the short interisland flights and they are here to stay for many more years.

Aloha!
Aloha Airlines - The Spirit Moves Us. Gone but NEVER Forgotten. Aloha, A Hui Hou!
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:02 pm

At some stage the rumour was going that AQ would purchase a couple of 928C - Fairchild Dorníer´s 928JET in its convertible layout as a straight one-to-one replacement. This however died when FD was put into recievership.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
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Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:06 pm

Aloha will keep it's 732's for as long as it can, but once a replacement aircraft is absolutely needed, I think the 717 will be a very likely replacement option. Especially now that the Avro RJ's are no more. Aloha probably would have gone with the Avro's as it was heavily looking into it in the late 90s and before 9/11, but since the demise of that company, Aloha has decided to stay with 732s for now.


The other alternative for Aloha might be Embraer's new jets....but....how would they and their engines, perform on high frequency, short haul flights of about 30 minutes....all day long? Aloha needs something durable, designed for short range. And the NG 737 is not designed for that. This puts the 717 up high as a replacement candidate. I realize that Aloha doesn't want to be like HA, but...if the 717 is the best option, Aloha may just have to bite it and purchase 717s.  Smile
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:10 pm

ARJs might be quite well an option - only next year Swiss´ ARJ85 and 100s will come onto the market when they start phasing in the EMB-170; three of Northwest´s (Mesaba´s) ARJ85 should be available nearly immediately with potentially a lot more coming onto the market within one year. However they choose not to take the 4 ARJ85/100 white-tails BAE Systems had on offer for some time, thus I doubt it a bit.

BTW, currently 4 ARJ70 and 2 ARJ100 are listed as availabe, not really much.

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 2:15 pm

I thought that Avro went bust, and that's why Aloha didn't take on Avro jets.
 
T prop
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:29 pm

The people in Hawaii demand mainline jet service.

Yeah they demand stuff, but lets see if they'll keep paying the price.
AQ's fares increase tomorrow by $4, look for Hawaiian to follow.

Turboprops look better everyday.


T prop.
 
ha763
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 4:46 pm

Part of the problem is that AQ has to also look for a replacement for the QCs as well. That is why they were looking at the Avro. The only narrowbody jet aircraft available now with a convertible option is the 737-700, which is not economical to use on interisland flights, at least for pax flights. Maybe it could work if flying only cargo. No matter what AQ chooses, they will end up with at least 2 aircraft types in their fleet.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:03 pm

According to a letter I received from AQ CEO Glenn Zander regarding this topic, AQ will keep the 732 for a while longer until they can find a suitable replacement. He did not mention any types AQ was looking at. Though speculation was the Avro RJs, as earlier mentioned.

My letter to Mr. Zander asked if they have considered the 735 or 736 (especially since the 736 & 73G have the same cockpit), with those versions of the 737 being similar in size and capacity. He said when AQ had the 733 and 734, the CFM engines were not designed for the frequency and range that AQ flies, and that added to their maintenance costs.

Although the 736 is not a top seller for Boeing, it is a logical replacement, because of the fact that the 736 and 73G have similar cockpits, which would reduce training time if a pilot were to go from one variant to another.

I have talked to a couple of AQ pilots, and they loved the 733s and 734s for its performance.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
Flying-Tiger
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:20 pm

What pilots love is basically irrelevant - they are not the ones who have to make the whole thing (=airline) comercially viable. This is the task of the upper management. As long as they get their paychecks pilots will fly everything.

The whole idea of replaceing the -200 by -600 is rediculous. All the -600 would do would be adding costs and costs as it is heavier than the -200 by quite some margin. Especially on those extremly short hops Intra-Hawaiian the extra 4 tons of weight the -600 has will more than offset the gained commonality between the 736 and 73G - and surely AQ knows what they say that the CFM56 is more expensive in maintenance compared to the JT8D.

A real option is definately the ARJ100 (and even the 85 if you need the flexibility). So far none has been converted to a QC - but that shouldn´t be such a big problem. BAE Systems has been quite flexible in the past concerning cernversion programms, even EADS could carry it out. The first ARJs are approaching the 15-year border and are becoming interesting as freighters, being potential BAe 146-200/300QT replacements, a niche market which will become even more attractive in the years to come.

What speaks for the ARJ100? Compared to the B732 it is up to 8 tons lighter (MTOW), is more suited to short hops due to the high-wing configuration, offers about the same space and is by far cheaper than the B737-600 in leasing (~+ 200 US$ monthly) with around 100-160 US$ monthly (leasing).

Regards
Flying-Tiger
http://fly.to/rorders

[Edited 2003-10-15 10:25:49]
Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 5:20 pm

Yep, Mr. Zander and I agree. The whole gist of the problem is that the 736 and 73G, and other NG 737s, are designed more for longer routes. The 736 for example has more range than Aloha needs interisland. And the engines would require higher maintenance on such short hops, which the plane was never designed for.

some people would like to say that the 73G is designed for these short markets and cite Southwest's operation of them as an example. But that's not a good comparison. Southwest does operate a high frequency schedule, to be sure, but the average route length is much longer, and Southwest uses more planes to fill those routes than Aloha would want to use interisland. We're talking ultra-short haul, ultra high frequency. That's hard on any airplane, and you need an airplane designed for just such routes.

the 717 is that airplane. And so were the Avro RJs. So tell me am I correct....I thought that Avro went out of business a few years back, just as Aloha was considering purchasing ARJ's as a 732 replacement. The reason that the Avro's never came to be was because the company was no more.

The Embraer jets...look to me to be designed not necessarily for ultra-short haul, but rather for intra-continental, thin routes. The EMB-190 probably will become a formidable competitor to the 717, and might offer more range as well. If it does, it might be less suited to Aloha's needs.

Aloha does need a QC, the question is will any manufacturer be willing to make such a special variant of a plane.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Wed Oct 15, 2003 6:32 pm

How come Aloha never considered the BA-146 for its inter-isalnd flights? It seems the 146 would be perfect for those short hauls.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:07 am

Look at what is going on over at HA, and how they are hinting at possibly dropping the 717's due to high lease rates.

For now, and in the forseeable future, AQ will operate 732's. Remember, AQ is not operating the same 732's they were a decade ago. AQ goes and purchases second-hand, relatively low-cycle 732's, flies the heck out of them, then replaces them with newer 732's. There are a ton of low-cycle, relatively new 732's, (newer than many 757's & 767's) parked in the desert and up for sale. Look, DL is still flying their 732's, and AQ will for the time being due to the lack of a suitable replacement.

Here's another thought.....one of the only disadvantages of the 717 is its high lease rates. What about obtaining second-hand MD-90's at some point. Just a thought, that you all could debate.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:24 am

Because then you have the exact same problem as the 737NG: The MD-90 was never designed for ultra-short haul, ultra-high frequency ops. You''ll have a big increase in maintenance costs, the plane is heavy, and might have too much capacity on some routes as well. You could have more empty seats per flight, combined with a higher operating cost, which would drive up Aloha's fares, and lose them business in the interisland market.

You have pretty much the same problem with the MD-80. That's why Hawaiian dumped their MD-80s many years ago, they weren't cost-effective for the interisland market. For them to consider it again, publicly, is probably nothing more than posturing for better lease rates. HA already knows that the Md-80 isn't as good an aircraft interisland as the 717 is. However, DC-9s are more suited to that kind of thing. If HA is going to bring back older jets for interisland markets, it'll be DC-9s, not MD-80s.
 
b727
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:30 am

A question about AQ'a 732s. Why do they have to worry about cycles in these aircraft? I know every TO and landing is considered a cycle. Back in the 80's they had one where the roof blew off. My question is: If it is such a short hop to the other islands, why fly so high? Why not fly below 8,000 ft so that they dont have to pressurize the aircraft? Seems like the aircraft structure would last a lot longer.


B727
Glenn
 
Luv767s
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:49 am

Wasn't there an interisland airline in Hawaii around 1990 called Discovery that used Bae-146s? What happened to them?
-"...never have I been a blue calm sea, I have always been a storm"
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:57 am

Why not fly below 8,000 ft so that they dont have to pressurize the aircraft?

Very, very inefficient. Fuel consumption at 8,000 ft, as opposed to 26,000 ft, is much higher. So any benefits you have in not pressurizing the aircraft are offset by a higher fuel burn on every single flight. Thus, no cost savings. It makes more sense to fly at 26,000 feet and burn less fuel during cruise that way.

Second problem: NIMBY's. If aircraft, especially older ones with louder engines, fly lower over the islands or near the islands than they currently do, you can bet you're going to have residents complaining about the noise and demanding more restrictions. 8,000 feet isn't really that far up, the sound level is comparable to being about two to 3 miles away from an international airport...and the NIMBY's complain about that. They'd complain about 732s flying over Molokai as well. Just doesn't make sense.


And the air at lower altititudes is thicker...thus the fuel burn problem, but it also does increase the inflight stresses on the aircraft as well. There goes your airframe benefits. There would be no savings surrounding flying at a lower altitude, I'm afraid.
 
b727
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 2:46 am

Aloha717200,

Thanks for the info.


B727
Glenn
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 3:08 am

Regarding the 8,000 feet recommendation: another point to consider is that Maui and Hawaii have volcanoes that have 10,000 feet peaks.

Discovery Air only lasted a short while. They folded because of financial challenges, and being the small fish in the pond. A third "major" inter-island carrier has never survived with AQs and HAs power. Mid-Pacific Air and Mahalo Air have also suffered the same fate. It's true that the 3rd wheels have used aircraft more suitable than what AQ and HA uses. Discovery has the BAe146, MidPac had the YS-11 and F28, and Mahalo had the ATR42 and the F27. One note about Discovery, one of it's co-founders founded DebonAir in the UK, and it kept the Discovery Air livery. I think photos exist on the a.net database.

Ultimately, what AQ chooses will probably be a wise decision. At the very least, to comply with noise regs, they could just add hush-kits. AQ does keep their 732s in great condition.
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 12:37 pm

The BA-146 or even the F-100 would seem perfect for the inter-island flights. The 146 was specifically designed for routes like this, and depending on seating configuration, AQ could easily get 100+ pax on a 146-300.
 
CitationX
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:34 pm

I know that most uninformed passengers prefer jets, but if AQ could sell the idea, I'd bet they would be able to make more money flying ATR-72s or DHC-8-400Qs on their inter-island routes. These are very modern planes, with state-of-the-art avionics, active noise reduction and good performance. I'd imagine the actual block times on most intra-Hawaiian routes would be less with these turboprops than with their current jets. Also, I think that frequency is more important than capacity on these routes.
 
Bluewave 707
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Thu Oct 16, 2003 5:57 pm

One thing to take into consideration for AQs replacement is the fact some of their 732s are quick changed (QC) into freighters for night runs to the neighbor islands and back, which use the flight #s AQ900 and higher, and fly after 20:00 hrs. Either they will keep a few 732QCs around for overnight cargo runs, or find a type that will have that QC capability. Are there any similar aircraft out there?
"The best use of your life will be to so live your life, that the use of your life will outlive your life" -- D Severn
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Fri Oct 17, 2003 9:41 am

I think in the end, AQ will buy a fleet of low-cycle BAe 146-300's and RJ85's to replace the 737-200QC's now in AQ service.

There are a couple of good reasons to get these planes: 1) they can be modified into quick-change freighter configuration relatively easily; 2) the plane's STOL characteristics means they can be operated out of shorter runways found at many airports in Hawaii; and 3) the plane could probably be modified to meet ICAO Stage IV noise standards that will come into effect in 2006.
 
POSITIVE RATE
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Fri Oct 17, 2003 12:12 pm

The BA-146 is already an extremely quiet airplane, may not even need hushkitting, although i'm not sure how stringent the stage IV requiremnets are.
 
concorde1518
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RE: Aloha's 737-200s

Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:44 pm

Do Aloha's pilots fly both the -200 and -700 currently?

 Smile

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