cancidas
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Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 10:57 am

now, we all know that LOT flights in the peak seasons are completely filled to capacity. would the -400 be an economical option to use at those times? they could continue to operate the same routes, and carry more pax. personally , i would love to see the -400 in the LOT colours.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Jaws707
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:03 am

That sounds like it would be a good idea to capitalize on the seasonal demand, but the other side to that argument is during the winter their airplanes fly very empty, so the benefit of the 400 series would only be realized during those few months, and I am not sure that is enough to justify the purchase of new aircraft. Eventually they will need to replace the 767's and personally I believe it will be with the 7E7.
 
BAJMowiec
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:11 am

Hi!

In off-peak seasons, they can fly WAW-JFK-ORD-WAW,all together, on a 764. That could work. Also, how about a return to the Far East ? Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, Singapore and Sydney, along with Melbourne (Sydney and Melbourne considering that many Poles left for Australia in early 80's, and settled massively in these 2 cities). So, a -400 could be ''worked'' in. Another possible replacement is the A332, which seems quite possible, considering factors such as the EU integration and the possible pressure from other European airlines to support Airbus, I mean that's just my thought, but it does seem logical.

Piotrek
 
9v-svc
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RE: A330 And A340: Which Looks The Best?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:13 am

Nope , they should consider the A330-200 instead. I feel that the A330 is a great horse to any fleet and will do a prefect job for LOT . The range and capacity is definately what LOT requires .
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
BAJMowiec
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:21 am

9V-SVC, I agree, the A332 would be great for far East Routes .. yes, I know I am getting on that case again, but I need to win some support  Smile/happy/getting dizzy back in 1990's LOT did Beijing, Bankgkok, Singapore and Delhi, now we don't go further than Moscow ! Come on, let's make a petition to LOT !!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Piotrek
 
Danny
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:23 am

I think A332 is the best choice and the most probable choice as 7E7 will not be ready at the time when LOT plans to replace current 767. The reliability of current 767 is not the best and I don't think they will go for new 767.

Considering strong partnership with Lufthansa A332 becomes even more probable.


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cancidas
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:02 am

i'm down for the petition to LOT! Big grin

LOT will most likely stick with boeing when it comes to ordering new aircraft. LOT has a very good relationship with both boeing and the us govt. they are already flying a large boeing fleet and are complety self sufficient in terms of mx, they even have thier own paint house. pilots are trained to fly 2 major types of boeing a/c, meaning that they would only be hurting themselves buying airbus planes now. also, the planes operated by LOT are still capable of flying, i doubt that they will be replaced any time soon.

with regards to flights to australian, the 767-400ER may be the ideal platform for those. right now i'm unsure if they would be able to operate those legs nonstop but do think that it would be a very nice addition to the route structure. i'd love to go visit my family there on a LOT flight from WAW.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
gigneil
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:24 am

Nobody should order any more 767-400s, ever.

They're doing what they were designed to - replace CO and DL's old trijets.

N
 
cancidas
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:31 am

do you not like them? theyre a really capable airplanes, and should be used to the fullest of thier capabilities. otherwise, what's the point of even using it?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
KFRG
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:45 am

Gigneil, do you run an airline?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:49 am

The reliability of current 767 is not the best

Care to corroborate this [rather inane] comment...?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
sllevin
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:59 am

The 767-400 would fit perfectly for LOT by allowing them to keep 763's where the extra capacity isn't needed, and they should get better economics out of the 764 that the A332, since they won't need to tote the extra 40,000 pounds of aircraft around...

But the 7E7 may be out in time. Who knows for sure?

Steve
 
codeshare
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:35 am

No I don't think so.

Maybe they have a good relationship with the US, but bear in mind that Poland is joining the EU - so Airbus could be favoured. The F-16 tender was a bit tricky, so it could be Europe's turn now.

Even the 763's are not always fully utilised, so why an even bigger plane? Maybe increasing frequency would be better, by adding additional 762/3s.

And lot is joining Star Alliance, so a lot of traffic could be handled via FRA, MUC or other Star hubs, with LOT flying mainly North American routes.

The 767s are getting old, and since LH, SK, US Airways, OS have A330s, isn't that the direction LOT should go?

Even the Kenya Airways 764 order was switched to 763s and 777s right?
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
behramjee
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:01 am

Instead of ordering new B 764s, why dont they buy a few Delta B 764s which are configured in a high density manner mainly due for the Hawaii routes.

Or lease them from DL for the peak season. Surely DL wont mind giving them 2-3 B 764s as its guaranteed cash for them and in the summer season HAWAII aint that popular compared to Nov-Jan period.
 
Guest

RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:13 am

DL isn't interested in giving up any of its B764.
 
codeshare
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:17 am

Buy the DL 764's? Yeah, right. That is nonsense.

Why should LOT support DL's financial situation? They've got enough of their own problems.
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
konrad
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:35 am

Doesn't the 767-400 have rather short range ? What is good enough for COs EWR-BRU might not be sufficient to make WAW/KrK - ORD with strong headwinds. Also, no improvement in cargo capacity over the 763 and 762s doesn't make it especially attractive. I would hope they go for 777s one day but that's probably dreaming. The only realistic option is 330 or 7E7 later on.
 
gigneil
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:42 am

theyre a really capable airplanes, and should be used to the fullest of thier capabilities.

They're NOT a really capable airplane, and that's why they haven't sold to other carriers.

The 767-400ERX was to be the actually capable airplane, and it got shelved.

The 767-400ER wouldn't really run reliably WAW-ORD year round, not.

Gigneil, do you run an airline?

I don't, do you?

N
 
iloveek
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:47 am

I'd rather see LOT ordering 332's then 7E7! I think the 332 is just perfect for LOT! And they indeed should NEVER order the 764! Nobody should do that! Gigneil is right!
 
JAL
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:51 am

Love to see LOT order the 767-400 but I think that will wait for the 7E7 instead.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:57 am

I like the 764, but I don't think it could do the range.

**And they indeed should NEVER order the 764! Nobody should do that! Gigneil is right!**

Yeah ATA should order it to replace the L1011s on routes that the 757-300 isn't big enough to.

LOT should order a couple 777s
 
Leskova
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:03 am

Behramjee, why should LOT buy DL 764s configured in high density layout while, as Codeshare writes, even the 763s aren't always fully utilites? Wouldn't, if at all, a 764 in a more comfortable "international" layout make much more sense for them, considering this point?

But I still don't think that 764s are really the way to go for LOT - depending on when they want the replacements in the fleet, I suspect that the 332 or 7E7 will be front-runners - since they've, as I understand it, said that they want to replace their current 767s, I don't really see too much sense in them increasing the 767 fleet now, just to replace it within a relatively short timeframe.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SPLOBKrakow
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:06 am

Unfortunatelly LOT will have to start replacing their 767. It's not resonable to think that they will wait for the 7E7. I think that their best choice right now would be 777. As mentioned before they do have a good relationship with Boeing, and the chances of LOT purchasing anything form Airbus seems very slim.

I think the 777 would look very nice in LOT's livery  Smile

 
iloveek
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:18 am

*I think the 777 would look very nice in LOT's livery*

Yeah definetily, but LOT has to get a NEW livery first!
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:19 am

They should buy the 777, take out a bunch of seats and give people a lot of leg room if they are worried about not selling every seat.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:23 am

They should buy the 777, take out a bunch of seats and give people a lot of leg room if they are worried about not selling every seat.


....and charge $20,000 per seat to cover the trip costs?  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
mlsrar
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:34 am

I see we have a number of armchair-CEOs in this thread again, coupled with a list of behind-the-screen consultants who are obviously far more informed of the performance metrics set forth from DL and CO, and whether or not those have been met, citing a few examples:

Nobody should order any more 767-400s, ever.

When and from whom I cannot say, but someone will. In spite of your powerful statement, some rabble-rourser may not heed your edict.

They're NOT a really capable airplane, and that's why they haven't sold to other carriers.

The 764 is a perfectly capable airframe, it's a niche aircraft. Whether or not you deem cargo capacity, and [excess] range to be a qualifier is regardless, as you do not own the airline or have any input into leveraging a profitable fleet/route system. I can think of some other less-capable airframes which are also niche aircraft that haven't sold that great either...the 736 and 318 come to mind.

I like the 764, but I don't think it could do the range.
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codeshare
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 6:56 am

The 764 is not in LOT's niche.
And the 777 would prove too big.
Even the 332 is a bit too big, but its a wiser choice.
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
kl911
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:12 am

I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plane which suits their needs the best. ( And it looks far better ) I just hope they will get a new livery soon....
 
Trvlr
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:19 am

I think they will do one of two things:

1) Buy A330-200s to replace the 767s.

2) If the 7E7 becomes a reality, lease some A332s until committing to a dozen or so 7E7s.

Aaron G.
 
Bobs89irocz
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 7:20 am

With the last couple of post makeing good points....they should either buy NEW 763. OR wait and see what they do with the star alliance/wait for the 7E7.

Them buying the 764 isnt a bad idea either, very capable aircraft for the WAW-ORD route but i dont think that route has much capacity being since i see the 762 come in here a lot. Sometimes 2 times a day. The 777 would be a dream come true if they ordered it but dont count on it.

Someone said something above that the 767 isnt a very reliable aircraft? LOL have you been sleeping since 1980? That plane is VERY reliable and trustworthy. That aircraft is one of the safest planes out right now and i know maintnance people think the world of it also.
 
cancidas
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 8:10 am

the 777 definately has too much capacity for LOT. true, the 767s do fly part empty but that is only in the off seasons. cargo capacity is not really needed for LOT, they don't carry that much cargo.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
SPLOBKrakow
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:13 am

"Yeah definetily, but LOT has to get a NEW livery first!"


I don't think there is a need for new liverly! The one they have now is going to be very hard to beat.

"the 777 definately has too much capacity for LOT"


I have to agree with that , but in the bussy time of the year the 777 would be usefull. During the summer time it is hard to book a seat with LOT. LOT comes to Toronto 5 times a week always fully loaded.
And now that they have signed the deal with United and are planning to expand their destinations the 777 might just be the right size. But I guess only time will tell.

SPLOBKrakow
 
cancidas
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:46 am

summers are extremely difficult to find seat on LOT. but even if they did use a 777 then, they'd have it packed.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Danny
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 11:04 am

Only in the summer. During a winter season there's a lot of empty seats.
777 is definitely too much. I think the only choices they consider are 7E7 and 332.
But again. The replacement is scheduled in around 3 years so may be no option but 332. &64 is not for that purposes and is out of question.

My responmse to question about reliability - Concorde Boy if you could read polish aviation groups there are long stories of breakdowns, frequent mainetance delays, engine problems etc.

Daniel
 
gigneil
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:01 pm

I can think of some other less-capable airframes which are also niche aircraft that haven't sold that great either...the 736 and 318 come to mind.

The problem with these aircraft, as has been stated repeatedly, is actually excess capacity.

Its just not very likely that LOT, who can't fill a 763, would need a 764.

And if the did, they wouldn't want its incumbent performance issues.

N
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:08 pm

I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plane which suits their needs the best. ( And it looks far better ) I just hope they will get a new livery soon....

The 767 has proven unreliable for them!? What are you smoking!? Show us some evidence of this! The A332 is larger than the 767, yet at the same time you all insist LOT is incapable of taking on more capacity!? Armchair Airline CEOs again.

B4e-Forever New Frontiers
 
sllevin
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:24 pm

The 767-400ER wouldn't really run reliably WAW-ORD year round

WAW-ORD is 300 miles shorter than EWR-HNL, takes a more polar route (less headwind) and doesn't have nothing but water the last 2,500 miles. I am sure it can run WAW-ORD all year, all the time.

Steve
 
Guest

RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:03 pm

The A330-300 is a great alternative! And a very comfortable one at that! The 767-400, is a very odd aircraft. I believe that the 767-400, will be about as popular as the 747SP! If need be airlines will buy it, if not... there is always an alternative.
 
gigneil
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:08 pm

The A330-300 is way big IMHO.

The 764 is closest to the 332 in size, and the 332 is a bit bigger.

I think LOT will be well served by the 763 for some time.

N
 
SPLOBKrakow
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:14 pm

See the only reason why I suggested the 777 is because of the new alliance with United. Since this partnership will allow then to expand their routes this means that there will be alot more passangers for example on WAW-ORD routes. Now instead of flying the 767 on that route 3 times a week they can make it 2 times a week. This might save the company some money. I presonally think that LOT will continue using the 762 and 763 since they have proven to do the job. I'm sure they will repalce all their 767 with the exact same type of plane. After all why re train employees, changing the aircraft type would be a usless expense for the airline.



Just one more thing , in aircraft data and history you can see that the 763 can carry between 210 and 269 people and the 772 can carry between 305 and 440. So now we have only 36 seat differnce. Which ofcouse can dramaticaly increase depending on the set up. Well basically what I am getting at is that if LOT fills only 200 of the 269 seats they can get rid of one flight and sinsted of flying 2 half empty 763 they can now only send one fully loaded 777.
 
cancidas
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:18 pm

will a 777 fit into the gates at warszawa and krakow?


one other thing to consider. type rating for aircraft are large expenses. take that 10K bill and multiply it by the amount of persons making up all thier flight crews. that's a lot of money. i see the 764 fitting LOT better than the 777 or the 332 (if new airplanes or more capacity are needed) simply because the crews need no new type rating, just crossover training.

[Edited 2003-10-18 06:21:09]

[Edited 2003-10-18 06:22:37]
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
SPLOBKrakow
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:34 pm

I think they will fit into the gate @ Warsaw

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not too sure about Krakow, however there is no way that LOT would fly a 777 into Krakow. They don't even fly their 767 there on a regular basis. Plus now with the expansion of EuroLOT there are much better conection between Warsaw and Krakow. At least from Toronto the is only a 2 hour difference between the fightToronto-Warszawa and Warszawa-Krakow.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:39 pm

**I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plane which suits their needs the best. ( And it looks far better ) I just hope they will get a new livery soon....**

And the proposed 7E7 looks far better than the A330-200. so I guess LOT should get that too. Airline executives should really pick the aircraft type based on looks only.
 
codeshare
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 2:52 pm

I've seen it a few times there and it was parked at stands without the gates. Two gates can accomodate 747-400s and the rest 767-300s.
So the 744s can, but the 777 is not present in he docking systems and the terminal itself was built before the 777 wasconstructed. But have no fear, the new terminal should be completed around 2005 and it will be able to park 777s at the gates.

About the reliability of the 767s in LOT, I'm not going to to write anything.
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:40 pm

"not too sure about Krakow, however there is no way that LOT would fly a 777 into Krakow. They don't even fly their 767 there on a regular basis."

What are you talking about? What do you think II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK-ORD is served with? a 737?

" Now instead of flying the 767 on that route 3 times a week they can make it 2 times a week. This might save the company some money. I presonally think that LOT will continue using the 762 and 763 since they have proven to do the job. I'm sure they will repalce all their 767 with the exact same type of plane. After all why re train employees, changing the aircraft type would be a usless expense for the airline. "

Errr, 3x weekly, more like 6x weekly at the moment.

BTW as far as the 777 goes, you can always lease out in off-peak season (fall, spring) No need to fly it all year.

 
iloveek
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 5:31 pm

*I don't think there is a need for new liverly! The one they have now is going to be very hard to beat.*

Hard to beat? You must be joking! Just look:


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How old is this livery? Anyway, it looks very old!!
 
Gdabski
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sat Oct 18, 2003 10:21 pm

Not too sure about Krakow, however there is no way that LOT would fly a 777 into Krakow. They don't even fly their 767 there on a regular basis.

What are you talking about? What do you think II International (II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK / EPKK), Poland">II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK-ORD is served with? A 737?


Of course they do fly scheduled 767s there, but the aircraft are already weight & balance restricted. This would apply to the 764 or 777 at an even bigger degree.

How old is this livery?


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This photo suggests that it's 29 old. And I also think there's no need to change it  Smile

Gdabski
 
SPLOBKrakow
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sun Oct 19, 2003 6:55 am

How often do they fly II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK-ORD?????
I know flights for YYZ to II International (KRK / EPKK), Poland">KRK are only available durring the summer time. As far as I know there are not regular all year round flights on that route.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Should LOT Consider The 767-400?

Sun Oct 19, 2003 7:08 am

SPLOBKrakow,
that picture suggests that it was being parked at a remote stand  Wink/being sarcastic