b752fanatic
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An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:15 pm

There is an Edelweiss A330 parked in the old Pan Am maintanence hangar in MIA, he has been there for more than 2 weeks.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Árpád Gordos



I heard that this a/c crossing more than 20 thousand feet departing MIA bound for Zurich, had engine problems and one of the engines blades struck the fuselage, and was inches away of entering the interior of the aircraft, also one of the engines caught fire (the one that the engine blade went off) and the crew had to land with one engine to MIA doing an emergency landing.

All of this occurring around 2 or 3 AM Est time.

Mechanics from Switzerland are in MIA doing the works on the a/c they already changed the engine.

Now they are focused on the fuselage.



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:34 pm

I've seen that aircraft, too (taxied in front of it actually). Gorgeous paint job.

That was a day I'll never forget...behind a European 747, with an Edelweiss and JMC A330 right behind me.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
aerobalance
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:36 pm

Wow, tragedy narrowly averted.... I did not know about this story....
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
b752fanatic
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:40 pm

Nice livery, looks pretty nice.

But it was good to know that every one pulled out safe.

It was after midnight, so there was not much activity in MIA, so this incident is almost unknown.

Until know, hopefull someone that knows something about this could say more, since this is all i have in info.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:44 pm

Wow, tragedy narrowly averted.... I did not know about this story....

An engine failure (even an uncontained one) does not constitute a near-tragedy. We're trained to cope with them from day one of multiengine training  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
aerobalance
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:20 pm

JBirdAV8r -

I was talking about the UNCONTAINED engine failure and the engines fan blade almost piercing the fuselage, which probably could have resulted in cabin decompression.... But like I said, tragedy narrowly averted.

As an aerospace engineer, and a pilot, I do recognize the fact that multiengine rated pilots are trained to fly with an engine out (1 or 2 engines out) condition. I will venture to say that specific type rated pilots are also trained to deal with cabin air decompression situations for the equipment they are flying.

If a fan blade pierces the fuselage on the plane I'm flying on as a passenger, I would be concerned, would you? Would anybody?
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Unique
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:35 pm

The aircraft was airborne for 13 minutes (bound for ZRH) and was at approx. 21000 ft when No 1 engine suffered a blocked oil pipeline caused by oil burn residues.

No 1 engine then didn't get sufficient lubrication and one of the fans seized up and the whole thing literally exploded. Pieces of the engine penetrated the wing and hit the fuselage (but did not penetrate it), and the aircraft managed to get back to MIA safely.

It could have happen everywhere, it could have been fatal...
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:39 pm

Guys, although I can't go in to large details, I try to give you some more informations. There was no fanblade lost, as some of you suggested. The damage is limited to the turbine section of the engine. Also I assume it as an exaggeration to say that a blade nearly hit the fuselage. Nobody would have been able to see that and therefore noone can confirm this..... However, the wing has some serious damages, and it is likely, that the plane will need heavy repair before it can fly again in revenue service. Also, the second engine was changed a swell, to eliminate any risk as this engine clocked up the same amount of flighthours and cycles.

Cheers, Thomas
 
b752fanatic
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:41 pm

Oh, thanks for the Info UNIQUE.

I really thank god that the a/c was over water, If not those pieces would had fallen in the ground and hit any body down, since those things would had been projectiles.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
b752fanatic
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:43 pm

Thomas,

One thing,

I got the info on the fusalage from some one that works in AA and has been working near this a/c.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
WindowSeat
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:47 pm

any chance of pictures??
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
aerobalance
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:51 pm

Ok, I get it...

Forgive me on the fan-blade issue, moot point if it DID NOT happen....

BUT......
....Some will say that exploded engine turbine section components piercing the wing will NOT be a danger to the plane or it's occupants........While some will say that exploded engine turbine section components piercing the wing will be a danger to the plane and it's occupants....

I guess it all matters in what, if any, flight control systems they disrupt, fuel lines the do/don't hit, and other criteria.... It's all in the perception of what could be dangerous or not.


But can anybody in this industry tolerate uncontained engine failures, I know that for the avionics cooling fans that my company produces, they cannot fail the uncontained test.
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Unique
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:54 pm

I've received detailled pictures but on a confidential basis only hence I'm unable to share it to the public. Maybe at a later stage...
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:49 pm

...same here Unique....

Cheers, Thomas
 
AR385
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:00 pm

Wake up people, an uncontained engine failure does not pose a life threatening situation. Nobody was at risk on that flight. It sure does make great headlines but as far as pilots are concerned, it's just a routine occurence, specially on high bypass engines. Please, let's not play in the hands of sensationalistic media. We should know better
 
kilavoud
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:11 pm

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/2003/10/08/news/local/6958284.htm

Posted on Wed, Oct. 08, 2003

MIAMI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT
Swiss plane returns after blast
By INA PAIVA CORDLE
icordle@herald.com

An engine exploded on a Swiss charter airline Sunday morning shortly after it took off from Miami International Airport with 175 people aboard.

Edelweiss Air Flight No. 565 en route to Zurich returned to the airport and no injuries were reported, said Lauren Peduzzi, spokeswoman for the National Transportation Security Board, which is investigating the incident.

However, the explosion of the Rolls-Royce engine damaged the Airbus A330's wing, and pieces of the engine could have penetrated the passenger cabin.

''Anytime you have an uncontained engine failure and have engine parts exiting the engine, it's a dangerous situation,'' Peduzzi said. ``There is a danger that engine parts will damage the aircraft or they could injure people.''

The twin-engine Airbus A330 departed Miami at 1:28 a.m. and returned at 2:11 a.m., said Marc Henderson, Miami International Airport spokesman.

The plane's left engine failed no more than 40 miles outside the airport, Henderson said.

Passengers were flown later that day on Lufthansa and American Airlines flights, Henderson said.

Edelweiss' charter flight has flown nonstop to Zurich on Sunday mornings since July 5.

Peduzzi said the aircraft is still in Miami, and Rolls-Royce is making arrangements to remove the engine and ferry it to Derby, England, to analyze it.

Engine explosions are unusual, and the flying metal created by them can kill passengers.


Rgds. Kilavoud.

 
saab2000
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:16 pm

Ar385,

You should wake up. An uncontained engine failure can easily be a life-threatening situation. I believe the DC-10 which crashed in Sioux City, Iowa (miraculously the captain and his crew saved many lives) suffered an uncontained engine failure and this damaged critical hydraulic lines.

The fact that the Edelweiss plane suffered wing damage is evidence that it is indeed a serious issue. This will certainly be heavily investigated by the engine maker (RR) and the various authorities indeed because it is so serious.

A "normal" engine failure or shutdown is not a particularly serious issue, but an uncontained engine failure is.

BTW, I know many of the crew at EDW. There is a very high standard of professionalism in this little company.

[Edited 2003-10-21 08:18:39]
smrtrthnu
 
Shenzhen
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:48 pm

Maybe you should tell those unfortunate people on that Delta MD80 that an uncontained engine failure isn't life threatening. I've seen uncontained starter failure's pierce the fuselage on 737 type airplanes. Uncontained failures are most definitely a safety concern.
 
AR385
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 3:54 pm

Shenzhen:

I don't like your sarcastic tone. I feel offended and hurt. You should go back to my posts and then make a mature comment regarding them. I have the utmost respect for human life and I don't appreciate the way you are introducing your comment. Any death is unfortunate. That does not change the fact that uncontained engine failures are a fact of life, and that pilots are trained to deal with them in a certain way.
 
Unique
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:13 pm

Gentlemen, calm down! NO debries have entered the cabin! Pieces just hit the fuselage without penetrating it!
 
LGW
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:32 pm

As EDW only have one long-haul aircraft, the one involved in the incident, which aircraft is operating it's long-hauls for the time being from ZRH?

Ben Pritchard
 
wbryce
Posts: 83
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:00 pm

for god sake...

Someone just leak the damn pictures already!

my email address wbryce@scottishmail.co.uk feel free to show me the pictures Big grin

The systmems damaged by that uncontained failure were statistically impossible to have occured

Statistically aint really the way to look at it! as you said it was statistically impossible, but it did happen, i will bet theres been alot of crashes out there that where statistically impossible.

The pilots done a grand job imo, and this could have been serious, but the fact it was just basicially a routine emergency landing that they do on the sims every so often.

[Edited 2003-10-21 11:17:47]
 
wbryce
Posts: 83
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:19 pm

lucky you, think you can get me in the jumpseat?  Big grin
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 6:30 pm

Wbryce,

Sorry, not allowed any more.... Company policy....

Otherwise I like to have guests on the jumpseat.

Saab2000
smrtrthnu
 
Unique
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:33 pm

As EDW only have one long-haul aircraft, the one involved in the incident, which aircraft is operating it's long-hauls for the time being from ZRH?

So far, many different aircraft were leased by Edelweiss to operate their long haul flights such as

- Belair B763
- Eurofly A332
- Volare A332
- Air Luxor A333
- Novair A332 (presently SE-RBF, Novair fuse c/s, Air Luxor fin c/s)

From a ZRH spotters point of view, this incident was quite successful...  Big thumbs up
 
kellmark
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:09 am

Its interesting that nobody has mentioned that this was an etops flight. They were lucky that the incident occurred close to an available airport. If an uncontained engine failure occurs which damages a wing and possibly the fuselage, then we are talking of an incident with a far greater seriousness when you are out far from a suitable alternate. Also note that when this happens there is no way for the pilot to know for sure just what condition the aircraft is in. With wing damage there is always the possibility of fuel leaks, hydraulic system damage and flight control damage, plus aerodynamic problems. I too, would like to see the actual pictures.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 2:48 am

The thing is that, if they struck the wing, and also the fusulage, it could also had struck the fuel tank.

Thank god that it never penetraded the interior of the a/c. But it was really close.

Hopefully our friends could put some pictures of the a/c.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
wbryce
Posts: 83
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:23 am

yes, can we see some pictures please  Smile

anyone willing to send to my email address above, ill put them on with no names involved Big grin
 
BWIA330
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:10 am

Hey,

Currently Edelweiss has contracted a Novair A330-200 to do the long hauls from Zurich. It states this on their website.

Regards,

BWIA330
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:30 am

Aerobalance:

I'm sorry, but even if an aircraft engine experienced an uncontained failure with MULTIPLE pieces penetrating the fuselage pressure vessel and thus causing explosive decompression, I think you'd find that structural integrity of the airframe would remain intact. The only way I could see some major damage being done would be if that engine also caused a fire that was uncontrollable by all the fire bottles and any dive the crew could induce to put it out....eating the wing.

So tragedy from an engine failure--even uncontained--I could only conceive would be caused by injury or death to maybe one or two passengers from the engine parts.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
gigneil
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MI

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:39 am

On a more positive note-

That Miami Herald article is the most accurate and balanced media representation of an aviation event I've ever read.

N
 
LFutia
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 7:47 am

Sorry this might be off topic but was looking at the Edelweiss pics on the Edelweiss website and was looking at its pictures and it included a link to AºNet to see more pics of its aircraft.

Anyways... I applaud the pilots who contained the failure and made a safe landing back in MIA.

Leo/ORD
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
AR385
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:30 am

JBirdAV8r,

Finally, a voice of reason. That's the point I've been trying to make all along.

And, for MD-11 forever, here are the "facts you wanted me to present."

BOAC Boeing 707-465, G-ARWE April 8, 1968, engine 2
National Airlines DC-10-10, N6ONA Nvember 3, 1973 engine 3
British Midland Airways Boeing 737-4YO, G-OBME January 8, 1989, engine 1
United Airlines Boeing 747-122, N4713U February 24, 1989
Aerolineas Argentinas Boeing 747-287, LV-MLR July 1990, engine ?

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerardo Wals



Among others, these are the ones for which I have more accurate info.

Plus, L1011's had a history of leaving a decent trail of fan and compressor blades on the runway on cold weather takeoffs. I don't recall these being emergencies.

Cheers,

Martin
 
copaair737
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:33 am

I saw this plane in the hanger on friday. There was an AA M80 next to it. I also saw an ex-TWA 717 being painted into FL colors. I saw the Iberia 742 taking off, and when I was going into customs, the BA 744 was there.
Livin' on Reds, Vitamin C, and Cocaine
 
AR385
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:35 am

So as to avoid confusion, the picture on my post corresponds to the Aerolineas Argentinas plane mentioned. It's a 747 engine, it's not a pic of the Edelweiss plane!
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:05 pm

@Ar385

Wow, 5 cases in 35 years are what you call countless... I'm impressed. I still stand by my opinion that an uncontained engine failure is a serious incident although you and JBird might have a point in saying that the risk for the plane itself is limited. Nevertheless as I stated in an earlier reply, whenever an engine suffers an uncontained engine failure it violates its certification rules and therefore it will be not a neglectable issue for the manufacturer as well as for the authorities.

Cheers, Thomas
 
Unique
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:48 am

RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:09 pm

Guys, I managed to find some screenshots from the TV...




It gives you an impression on how serious the incident was!

Cheers
 
usair330
Posts: 691
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 3:30 pm

Wow that picture really does show how serious it was!!!! It's like if the plane was flying with reverse thrust....... definitely scary!
 
767Lover
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:26 pm

I don't understand the hostility being displayed on this thread in regards to the seriousness of the incident. Some people think bypass surgery is a very serious event and others think it is routine surgery. If some have the impression that this aircraft incident was perilous then they are entitled to their opinion.

Personally, I think any unusual occurrence that happens while suspended in air and traveling at a high rate of speed has the potential to become dangerous.
 
CitationX
Posts: 122
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Wed Oct 22, 2003 11:46 pm

This does bring an ETOPS question to mind:

If this incident had happened over the mid-Atlantic - with the added, asymmetric drag loads caused by the explosion damage and potential fuel leakage from the failed engine, could this plane been capable of flying up to 180 minutes to make a successful emergency landing?

I sure hope it could!

This would make for an interesting simulator exercise......
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:17 am

It's like if the plane was flying with reverse thrust....... definitely scary!

That hole looks like it's aft of the reverser grates....in any case I guarantee that any thrust that engine produced after the engine blew was negligible, regardless of which "way" it went.

If this incident had happened over the mid-Atlantic - with the added, asymmetric drag loads caused by the explosion damage and potential fuel leakage from the failed engine, could this plane been capable of flying up to 180 minutes to make a successful emergency landing?

I don't think ETOPS factors in any airframe damage, because that would be an EXCEPTIONALLY complex formula...since there is no guarantee of what kind of damage we're talking about.

Any fuel leakage through the engine should be contained by selecting the spar valve "off"..which is automatic in an engine shutdown. The spar valve is located farther up the fuel lines than the other, so it kind of provides a "tourniquet" effect so to speak--the fuel doesn't ever reach the inoperative engine.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:22 am

Thomas,

I completely agree with you...uncontained engine failures are BIG events that shouldn't happen under any circumstance.

The point I was trying to make that it shouldn't affect the basic flyability of the airplane. Sorry for my confusion.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
AR385
Posts: 6742
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:59 am

MD-11 forever

Of course those five cases I presented are not the only ones. I stand by my statement of "countless" Those 5 were the ones for which I have full documentation. Perhaps you should drop your irony and cynicism and bring the debate to an adult, professional level. Let's hope you can do that, as you seem a person with a great knowledge on aircraft and great, thought provoking opinions.

Cheers,

Martin
 
SR Spirit
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RE: An Incident With A Edelweiss A330 Departing MIA

Thu Oct 23, 2003 6:17 pm

Folks, anyone who knows WHEN the plane is back in service?
A friend of mine is not so happy to fly the Novair plane to Male in a couple of days...