rooinc
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Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:49 am

One that put that particular airplane's future in doubt or cancelled the production all together?

--TJ
 
triscl
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:03 am

I will call my mother and get the details because I can't remember all of them, but my great uncle died in a crash while test-piloting one of the early X-series aircraft. I believe it was sometime in the early seventies.

It's not a passenger aircraft, but I'm curious now so I am goning to get the rest of the story. I'll let you know...
chris
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:05 am

Airbus lost an A330 during Category-3 testing, which caused production delays for Thai and Malaysia.
 
CitationX
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:14 am

While it was not a test, per se, Airbus did have one of its A320 prototypes (in AF colors) crash doing a low pass over a French airport during a demonstration flight prior to the type's entry into revenue service (1987 or 88?). There were some fatalities and the A/C was written off. A news camera took video of the entire sequence of the accident, which has since become stock footage used by nearly every TV program on the subject of air safety.

This was the infamous accident where the fly-by-wire system locked up on the pilots and literally flew the A320 into the ground. Obviously, this accident did not kill the A320 program, but it did delay the plane's entry into service while the cause of the accident was investigated. The cause was eventually traced to a software bug, which was isolated and corrected.
 
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DaV
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:17 am

An engine failure on T/O test caused a fatal accident to the 330 in the 1994, onboard there were 2 Alitalia pilot (who died with 5 other persons) to see how the aircraft performed. I don't know though if it brought do a delay in the 330 entry service, that put on hold AZ interest in the aircraft. The name of the pilots can be found on two Alitalia 767 (I-DEIB "Pier Paolo Racchetti" and I-DEIC "Alberto Nassetti").

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
shankly
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:18 am

Hawker Siddley lost a Trident and BAC a 1-11 during flight testing, both stalling and crashing with the loss of their crews. The lessons learnt solved a problem associated with slow speed stability of T-tail aircraft.

Handley Page lost its prototype Herald on its way to the Farborough airshow, when one RR Dart engine exploded, but the plane was landed safely in a field without loss of life.

The late great, Brian Trubshaw also saved the prototype VC-10 from certain doom when its flying tail jammed and he returned the plane safely to Bristol. Famously he gave the crew the chance to parachute from the aircraft, but they all decided to stay with him!

Finally, I believe that the prototype Britannia suffered a near fatal mid-air engine fire when it was on a test flight over the West country with KLM reps on board. The plane was safely landed on the mud flats of the river seven...but KLM never ordered the Britannia!
L1011 - P F M
 
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:20 am

The worst part about that A320 wreck was that it was rather well videotaped and has been played all over the world a thousand times over... Boeing laughed all the way to the bank on that one.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:37 am

An engine failure on T/O test caused a fatal accident to the 330 in the 1994, onboard there were 2 Alitalia pilot (who died with 5 other persons) to see how the aircraft performed. I don't know though if it brought do a delay in the 330 entry service, that put on hold AZ interest in the aircraft. The name of the pilots can be found on two Alitalia 767 (I-DEIB "Pier Paolo Racchetti" and I-DEIC "Alberto Nassetti").

It wasn't an engine failure, it was a 1-engine take-off test, with 1 engine disabled for the test.
 
s.p.a.s.
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:07 am

Shankly...

I don´t recall which version, but I´m almost sure that one Britannia was lost on a very serious accident while returning from a test flight, or was it after take-off?. This was featured on a magazine I once read, but it is a long time ago, so I can't remember the exact data...

Rgds

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
Greg
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:08 am

Dash 80 lost a gear on high speed taxi run...
MD-80 broke it's back on heavy landing...
EMB170 lost a gear on landing...
747 lost a wing gear during taxi or landing (?) screwed up gear, engine, and flabs.

I imagine there were countless others....

Of course those were incidences, not actual 'crashes'
 
boeing767mech
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 4:17 am

MD-80 broke it's back on heavy landing...

I have footage of that!!! I broke its back and lost it's tail during a Autoland test heard it hit at about 1500 plus feet per minute.

The Convair 880 lost 80 percent of it's rudder during high speed flutter tests.
The DC-8 broke it's back during testing.

David
Team Convair 880 www.convair880.com
LostBirds www.lostbirds.com
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
srbmod
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:12 am

Bombardier lost a CRJ-200 (the first one built as a matter of fact) during flight testing on some performance improvements in 1993 near Byers, KS.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:19 am

I believe the 747 incident was the third 747 built, for Pan Am, it was damaged while landing @ RNT! Can you imagine?
 
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DaV
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:23 am

An engine failure on T/O test caused a fatal accident to the 330 in the 1994, onboard there were 2 Alitalia pilot (who died with 5 other persons) to see how the aircraft performed. I don't know though if it brought do a delay in the 330 entry service, that put on hold AZ interest in the aircraft. The name of the pilots can be found on two Alitalia 767 (I-DEIB "Pier Paolo Racchetti" and I-DEIC "Alberto Nassetti").

It wasn't an engine failure, it was a 1-engine take-off test, with 1 engine disabled for the test.


My bad English!! I intended that the test involved a simulated 1 engine failure disabling one of the engine, not that occured an engine failure.
Sorry for misunderstanding!

DaV
Two monologues do not make a dialogue
 
LastBaron
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 5:52 am

Boeing laughed all the way to the bank on that one.

I doubt it, Boeing doesn't laugh at Airbus much. And the 320 sells quite well, thank you very much. Just like the 747 which losts its "flabs" ( Wink/being sarcastic ) and also a wing... it still sells... this silly "Boeing is superior to Airbus" attitude is juvenile. Both build excellent aircraft. Americans need to learn that "U.S.-made" is no guarantee of success...

 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:00 am

Bombardier lost a CRJ-200 (the first one built as a matter of fact) during flight testing on some performance improvements in 1993 near Byers, KS

Yes, through no fault of the design (of the airplane)...the test pilot reached to deploy the spin recovery chute while the airplane was in a fully-developed spin and inadvertantly released the chute assembly from the airplane, making recovery impossible.

Man, I'd like to see a 747 landing at RNT....wow.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
MD11Lover
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:06 am



Didnt the DC10 have serious problems when it was first introduced? I think it had already been in service for some time, when repetitive engine loss off the wing caused a fatal accident in Ohare on take off? Had this problem not been dealt with during testing?
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:15 am

Concordeski crashed, cancelling the program alltogether! (For the good!)


Simon
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
levg79
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:34 am

Concordeski crashed, cancelling the program alltogether

The TU-144 or the "Concordeski" program did not end because of the 1973 crash. It was in service until about 1978 on the Moscow-Almati route going supersonic over land. I think the TU-144 wasn't successful because Tupolev couldn't follow the plans right, the plans that were stolen from Concorde developers by the KGB.


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ardian
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:46 am

There was even an accident with a Boeing 777-200 during testing. I saw this on the Discovery Channel documentary "21th Century Jet".
Something went wrong with the airconditioning I believed, causing decompression in the aircraft with one person injured.
I have these documentaries on tape, but I'm not quite sure what really happened (I have to watch the tapes, there were like 8 episodes) so correct me if I'm wrong or please provide some more information about this incident.
Thanx.

Regards, Doug


[Edited 2003-10-23 23:47:41]
 
VC-10
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:08 am

Brian Trubshaw also saved the prototype VC-10 from certain doom when its flying tail jammed and he returned the plane safely to Bristol

The tail didn't jam, the RH Inbd Elev hinge point attachment failed which caused the control surface to flutter and subsequently the a/c to vibrate violently. Reducing the speed stopped the flutter and Trubshaw got the a/c safely back to Wisley.
 
shankly
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:33 am

VC-10, thankyou for correcting my failing memory! Great storey about the bail out though
L1011 - P F M
 
A340600
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:57 am

"Boeing laughed all the way to the bank on that one".

They laughed at people gettin killed,

Sam
Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
 
Bobs89irocz
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:06 am

md11lover- The flight out of ORD that your talking about was American Airlines Flight 191. It happend May 25 1979. Everyone on board was gone including 3 on the ground. 278 people lost there lives in that deal. It was caused from the Maintnace guys at AA. They where doing a #1 engine change on the DC-10 and while they where in the middle of the change they mounted the engine on the pylon and didnt fully hang it right before the guys went to lunch. While the guys where on lunch the weight of the engine moved the pylon so much that it crached the hydrolic hose for the outboard slat. The plan was bound for LAX when it took off of 32R out of ORD. The #1 engine fell off the wing on TO. Since the hydrolic hose was broke for the outboard slat once they where deploid in the down position there wasnt any pressure left (from the hydrolic fluids running out) to hold the slat down. Therefore once there was any pressure against the slat it would just retract. When the plane was airborne the slat was pushed back in normal up postion and the left wing didnt have as much lift as the right wing. Once it was about 300ft AGL the left wing dipped and the plane ended up upside down in the ground. There are 2 really good pictures of this bird going down somewhere around here. Someone posted them not to long ago. McDouglas did put and AD out on the DC-10 for them to have some sort of locking pins in the Slats that way it wont retract with out the hydrolics working. I know the inside story behind this accident because my father still works with 2 guys that where working at the AA hangers that day the airplane was getting the engine service done. So really this crash didnt have anything to do with a flight test or anything, just a maintnace error and a design flaw.
 
MD11Lover
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:19 am


Bobs89irocz, thank you for your reply, I appreciate it. I had only read a brief article regarding this crash, but now, i know what happened. Was there legal action taken against the AA maintenance crew?

Md11Lover
 
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Crosswind
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RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:26 am

CitationX,
The Air France A320 that was written off at Habsheim was being operated on a public transport flight by Air France at the time of the crash. The aircraft had been used in flight testing, but had been delivered to Air France several days before the accident, and was involved in a promotional flight when it crashed. The A320 was in service operating revenue flights at the time of the accident, F-CFKC was in fact Air France's 3rd A320.

Most importantly, the fly-by-wire did not "lock up" - the accident was classic pilot error, no fault was found with the FBW system...

Some findings of the accident investigation:
  • The captain had participated as Air France's technical pilot in developmental test flying on the A320, during which manoeuvres were carried out beyond the normal operational limitations. This could have lead to overconfidence in the systems of the new aircraft.

  • The flight had only been briefly prepared, without real consultation between the departments (of Air France) concerned, or with the crew.

  • The presence of passengers on the aircraft probably contributed to the accident. The holiday atmosphere that prevailed among the passengers could have been conveyed to the crew with unfortunate consequences.

  • Descent was started 5.5nm from the aerodrome. Throughout the descent, the engines were throttled back to flight idle with the airspeed reducing.

  • At 1000ft AGL the rate of descent was still ~600fpm.

  • The captain levelled off at a height of ~30ft, engines at flight idle, pitch attitude increasing. He did not have time to stabilise the angle of attack at the maximum value he had selected.

  • Full-power was rapidly applied when the angle of attack was 15° and the airspeed 122kt.

  • The response of the engines was normal, and in compliance with their certification.


  • The cause:
    The accident resulted from a combination of the following;
  • Flyover height lower than surrounding obstacles (Flown at 30ft against the planned 100ft)

  • Slow speed, reducing to reach maximum angle of attack

  • Engines at flight idle

  • Late application of go-around power


  • In summary the crew flew the aircraft onto the wrong side of the drag curve in a critical situation overflying a very small grass strip with trees above the height of the aircraft off the end of the runway, the aircraft was low, slow and at a high angle of attack - there was no residual energy to get them out of trouble. It's a basic lesson in flying, and the A320 was found to have actually exceeded it's certified performance once TOGA power was selected.

    The crew had been briefed to overfly the concrerte runway 02/20 at 100ft, but unknown to them the airshow was alligned along grass strip runway 16/34. The crew were unaware of this until descending through 200ft, 24 seconds before the accident, at which time they had to chose to reposition the aircraft to conduct an overflight they had not briefed for over runway 16/34 as the height decayed to 30ft and the airspeed to 122kt...

    If you're interested in the subject Macarthur Job's "Air Disaster" series is excellent - the Habsheim A320 accident is covered in depth in Volume 3.

    Regards
    CROSSWIND
     
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    Crosswind
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:49 am

    If anyone is interested, some links to NTSB reports;

    McDonnell-Douglas MD-80 at Edwards Air Force Base (1980)
    Heavy Landing
    http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR82-02.pdf

    McDonnell-Douglas MD-80 at Yuma (1980)
    Runway excursion while conducting a test landing with no hydraulics
    http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR81-16.pdf

    Boeing 747-100 Renton (1969)
    Struck banking on approach
    http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/AAR70-19.pdf

    Regards
    CROSSWIND
     
    rthrbeflying86
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:58 am

    Not quite relevant to the civil aviation forum, the V-22 Osprey (which at one point had potential as a future civil transport) had many incidents. It has since either been completely cancelled, or at least completely reworked. Anyway I haven't heard any news about it recently.
    I'd rather be flying.
     
    777-200X
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:38 pm

    Crosswind

    The information you provided on the AF A320 crash in Mulhouse is based on the "official accident report". However, it is well documented that the "official accident report" altered the facts to protect Airbus and AF. Imaging the implication to the whole A320 program if the investigator puts the blame on the aircraft's computer and fly-by-wire system. Following is the link to airdisaster.com's web-site with detailed information on the accident.

    http://www.airdisaster.com/investigations/af296/af296.shtml#believe

     
    COSPN
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:44 pm

    AN 70 Twice I belive, hopefully someone has more info...
     
    POSITIVE RATE
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:01 pm

    The F-14 Tomcat crashed on it's first test flight. I think the cause was hydraulics failure and the pilots had to eject on final approach whilst the F-14 crashed itself.
     
    Vain~
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:20 pm

    AN 70 Twice I belive, hopefully someone has more info...


    http://aviation-safety.net/database/type/049.shtml


    Antonov 70
    1st flight: 1994
    2 built
    prod. ended: both prototypes crd

     
    FlySSC
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:14 pm

    The AF A320 that crashed in Habsheim in June 1988 was F-GFKC "Ville d'Amsterdam".
    It was AF third A320 delivered to th airline 3 days ago.
    It was not a prototype ! even if it served Airbus for flight tests for a while...

    On June 30th 1994, An Airbus A330-321 (F-WWKH) crashed on Take-off out of Toulouse-Blagnac Airport ( 7 fatalities). The aircraft crashed during a flight test in which the crew was simulating an engine failure on take off.
    Investigators said : Pilot error, misunderstanding of auto-flight system.

    The Aircraft was due to be delivered to THAI AIRWAYS.
     
    exPratt
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:59 pm

    AA191 crashed as a result of improper maintenance, but it wasn't quite as described by Bobs89irocz. American installed the engine and pylon as a combination rather than individually installing the pylon and then the engine as specified. While hanging the engine/pylon combination on the airplane using a large forklift rather than a crane, the pylon was jammed into the wing and damaged. The airplane returned to service and operated for quite a while as the damaged pylon developed a crack that propagated. Then during takeoff from ORD, the aft portion of the pylon failed and the engine pivoted around the forward mount so that it slapped the upper surface of the wing where the hydraulic lines are routed. With the hydraulic lines that control the leading edge slats destroyed, the hydraulic pressure bled off and the slats retracted causing an asymetrical lift situation. In addition to the slat hydraulics being knocked out, the electrical system that would have displayed a slat disagreement was also disabled. The problem was compounded by American Airlines then policy in an engine out situation to have the aircrews climb out at the best angle of climb speed. In the case of AA191, this meant raising the nose and slowing the airplane down. With the asymetrical lift, the lower speed was below the stalling speed of the left wing and the airplane rolled to the left and crashed. Ironically, had the crew maintained the speed they had when the engine separated, they would have had sufficient left wing lift and aileron authority to maintain flight and probably perform a successful emergency landing. This crew cannot be faulted for their actions because they were faced with multiple system failures at a critical phase of flight, most of which were not displayed to them, and they did as they were trained. Had the slat disagreement been displayed, then their actions may have been different along with the outcome. Unfortunately, their airplane and training resulted in the crash.
     
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    Crosswind
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    RE: Ever Been Accident During Testing Of New Aircraft?

    Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:27 pm

    777-200X,
    Those arguments are all over the place, and the conclusions drawn are not logical. For example:
    In fact both the engines and the altimetric system have been modified after the crash, which indicates that they did not function correctly at that time
    The conclusion is not supported by the evidence. Most aircraft systems will be modified and improved at some stage. After an accident it is likley that improvements will be looked at in relevant systems. That doesn't mean they were faulty or defficient, just that they can be improved to provide a greater safety margin.

    Feel free to believe the conspiracy theory, but how well a respected aviation safety authority is Chris Kilroy? He runs an aviation photography website... Maybe he should stick to what he's good at, and leave the accident investigation to the professionals.

    I also don't see how the report protected Air France, since it was very critical about their organisation and oversight of the flight, 6 out of the 9 safety reccomendations in the report were aimed directly at Air France!

    Regards
    CROSSWIND

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