fuelhog
Posts: 49
Joined: Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:21 pm

AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:02 pm

Working at American,I know there is discussion going on between Aprey and the unions about possible buying a new 100-seater.Talking to pilots it is tending to focus on the 717 or Emb-190.Just wondering from anybody,what would be the most logical choice for American.Thanks
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:34 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:17 pm

If they are looking for a new 100 seater, why would they want to buy new 717s when they just got rid of all of TWA's?

 Big grin
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:18 pm

Although AA sold off or returned all of TWA's 717's, I think the 717's would be most logical choice considering their fleet of MD-80's...that's just my opinion. Also, AA has an "exclusive" (not formally) arrangement for Boeing to supply AA with aircraft.
 
atrude777
Posts: 4258
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:23 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:26 pm

while it may seem odd if AA busy the 717 I think it is also the most practical choice, plus it would help STL very well, its not a regiona l jet but its not huge either, so it will fit nicely for routes to small for MD-80 but to large for RJ's.

Hope it works out!! 717 would look awesome in AA colors

Alex.
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
Okie
Posts: 3551
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:41 pm

This would be a tough one.
I have been on a many of the 717's and would say it is a very fine aircraft.
You just don't know what goes on in those sales pitches.
The 717 would be a plus for several reasons, being of the DC9-S80 series there would probably be enough commonality that present simulators could easily be modified or reprogrammed to train S-80 and 717. Even though the S80 & 717 have considerably different airframe there should be at least enough commonality that MX would not be a major problem. Even as in the case of WN there is a heck of a difference between a 737-200 and 300 but still pretty much the same MX. The 717 line could be closed down before AA decides to order.
The 190, as I understand a light weight efficient aircraft. Is it a 25,000 cycle disposable airframe, or is a 100,000 cycle? Would EMB give AA some type of guarantee as to operating cost? Is it similar enough that the 145 simulator be modified to train with? Will it be an Electra? Does EMB have a good relationship with AA? Would EMB give a huge discount to have the AA feather in its cap?
I would guess that cost structure on the EMB-190 would make it a favorable selection although I am a 717 fan.
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: As Time Goes By: Many 767s Bound For Scrapping

Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:36 pm

Okie--The cockpits on the S80 and 717 have no more in common than the 737-200 and the A320. So, the only way to use the S80 sim would be to get someone a type in the -80 and do a short differences course in the 717 sim.

Actually, the MD11 cockpit is virtually identical to the 717(the 717 even has three IRS knobs even though the center IRS doesn't exist).

The MD80 and the 717 are the same type rating but have totally different flight guidance "switchery" and the only "round" gauge on the 717 is the cockpit O2 gauge.

I believe the 717 has shorter legs than the 190. We did STL-PHX but I don't know the mileage on that.TC
FL450, M.85
 
Okie
Posts: 3551
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: AA 717 Or Hemp-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:21 pm

Thanks for the info AA717driver, much appreciated.
I guess I was assuming that the 717's that Boeing would offer would be the 300 series that is suppose to be in the works giving the plane longer legs.
I am also guessing that with the proven track record of the 717 that it would have at least one leg up on the competition. I personally, after riding a enough of the ERJ's, CRJs much prefer the larger fuselage diameter.
 
plugger
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2003 11:43 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:33 pm

I agree that the EMB 190s would be preferable due to their wider fuselage and, hopefully, wider seats than provided in the very narrow DC9 family, including the 717s. I don't know anything about the 717-300 program and can't comment on it other than to wonder if it will be carried out at all. It seems a superfluous project for Boeing given their wide variety of 737 choices.

I hope AA goes with the EMB 190 which is set to blow Canadair's little pencil tubes outta here with any luck. Wishful thinking.

Cheers!
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:43 pm

AA was happy with the 717s, but were unhappy with the leasing terms they were saddled with. TWA was paying very high leasing rates due to their bad credit, and the leasing/financing companies would not or could not get the payments down to a rate at which AA was willing to pay. AA would probably be in CH. 11 if they still had the TWA 717s just because of the payments. AA really isn't in a great position to buy any new a/c right now. Sure they managed to squeeze out a miniscule profit, but until they can start on a streak of profitable quarters, they won't be ording any new a/c. I think they will go with the 717, as they already do have a pool of pilots trained on the type, and the Embraer 190 still a paper a/c (and therefore an unproven one) and combined with the troubles Embraer is having with the 170 (it's becoming a bit of a black eye for them, as it has delayed service entry by almost 2 years), American may stick with Boeing (even though American Eagle is an Embraer operator).
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: As Time Goes By: Many 767s Bound For Scrapping

Sat Oct 25, 2003 11:56 pm

Srbmod--Those of us who were 717 Captains will be furloughed after the new year. Only a handful of management types and a few really senior people who flew the 717 will remain.

AA really likes the Embraer on paper. If it can be made to work, they will take it over the 717 if only to avoid looking like they made a mistake in the first place. I agree with Srbmod to an extent. I have been told by a management pilot that Boeing offered AA the 717 at the same price as a CRJ-700 shortly after 9/11. But AA was in their fleet-type-reduction mode.TC
FL450, M.85
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:41 am

You've got to understand the logic in AA getting rid of the 717s. TWA got a TERRIBLE lease deal for these planes. They were paying WAY TOO MUCH. AA didn't want to waste their money on them and figured the F100s could fill the void, so they returned them.

The EMB-190 would be an odd aircraft in AA's mostly-Boeing fleet. Any Embraer sounds more like an aircraft for American Eagle since they already have tons of them. I believe I read somewhere that it's only 30 minutes of training for S80 pilots to train for the 717 (don't quote me on this, though).

[Edited 2003-10-25 17:47:29]
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6104
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:11 am

Honestly I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to see the E170 / E190 program not be all its being talked up to be. Listening to the media, airlines, and analysts I feel they are overhyping this aircraft just a little too much. Lets not start making these statements til it starts proving itself in revenue service.
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:26 am

AA717driver...I don't think you made a very convincing comparison between the MD-80 and the 717. Your comparison between the 737-200 and the A320 is comparing apples with oranges. I think a better comparison would have been between the 737-300's and the 737-800's.

Besides Boeing can alter the cockpit configuration for any customer. One example is the difference between UA's 737-300's and US 737-300's. The UA 737-300's have glass cockpits, where the US airplanes do not.

There's no reason why Boeing could not or would not hybridize the 717 cockpit to match AA's MD-83's if the order quantity warranted it.
 
737-990
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2000 3:41 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:54 am

I'm surprised that the 737-700 isn't being considered. If I'm not mistaken AA has 400 options on the 737NG's when they placed their exclusivity deal with Boeing back in the mid 90s. The way AA configures their aircraft with MRTC the 73G would probably be close to 100 seats (their 737-800s are configured with 138 seats vs. 156 for Continental). The other issue is First Class on the EMB 190, they would be unable to offer 2x2 seating in F-Class. The 73G would give AA true commonality with the 738s in their fleet, although I'm sure they would probably have different pay scales for pilots.
Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:08 am

The 73G is a bit too big to be an F100 replacement.
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

I don't think AA would be in the market for a new 100-seater when their retiring their 70+ strong fleet of F-100s, all of which are 1990 or newer aircraft. The F-100 is currently fitted with 8 first and 79 coach seats. In contrast, the MD-80 is equipped with 14 first and 115 coach seats. AA is dumping the F-100 for a couple of reasons. First, they're reducing the number of aircraft types in the fleet (adding a 717 or 190 would defeat this), two, too much capacity over too many aircraft - all the 767-200 (non -ER variants) and nearly 30 -80s are parked in the desert. Third, AA can't afford any aircraft, having postponed deliveries on all 777 and 737 aircraft orders for this year and next, with the exception of 8 767-300s which they had to take delivery of earlier this year.

I just don't see it likely when they have a large fleet of young, efficient and modern 100-seaters and they're getting rid of them.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
motech722
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:10 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:20 am

I heard from a few folks at AE that they were looking at the 190. Supposedly the scope clause is trying to be worked out so that AE can fly larger aircraft. It seems to me that since AE already flies a large number of Embraer products, the 190 would be a good fit. It would give AA the 100 seat aircraft they want but keep them under the AE title, reducing the types of mainliners while expanding the types of regional aircraft.

take care
 
airways6max
Posts: 474
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 6:22 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:56 am

I would imagine it will be the EMB-190. American seems more interested in growing the American Eagle sector. The 717 is probably too big for the routes in question and American dumped the 717s it acquired in the TWA merger.
 
DAL12
Posts: 89
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 6:56 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:10 am

Srbmod, the original scheduled certification for the 170 (then ERJ-170) was 4th quarter of 2002, which makes it exactly one year late. And given that the schedule was completely unrealistic in that it only allocated three years for certification, one year late is not bad.

The first 190 will be completely assembled this year, and may make its first flight in the final months of the year -- which basically means that there is no way they will be this late on the 190.

Plugger, the fuselage for the 170/190 is not really wider than the 717. But since it is 4 abreast with a double-bubble fuselage, it will have marginally better passenger comfort than the 5-abreast 717.
 
syncmaster
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:55 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:14 am

Airways6max, AA did not drop the 717 because it was a bad aircraft. As stated many times above, it was dropped because the payments for these ex-TWA aircraft's were way too high. From a financial stand-point it only made sense, from the look of the American public, it was a blow to TWA and Boeing. AA was never unhappy with the 717's, but they simply could not afford them.

If you were making car payments and could no longer afford them, would you keep putting yourself into debt?
 
delta767-400ER
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:32 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:32 am

If aint Boeing AA is not going. When it comes to making a choice for the 100 seat category AA should buy the B737NG 600 series, AA would not have to introduce a new type of Aircraft into the fleet and this would save them thousands dollars In training flight crews, and cabin attendants.
The B717 is a nice plane as I really enjoyed Airtran and it would fit in very well with AA, but in my opinion the NG 737 is a bit stronger and if AA needs to Transcon the aircraft, they can use the equipment to do so.

AA stay with the NG 737 series.

 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:33 am

There's no reason why Boeing could not or would not hybridize the 717 cockpit to match AA's MD-83's if the order quantity warranted it.

Actually, When the MD-95 was first designed, it had an MD-90 flight deck incorporated, but when FL launched it (Then J7), they opted for the Honeywell VIA 2000 Avionics with the Six LCD Display screens, and being the launch, and only customer at the time, they got pretty much whatever they wanted.
Puhdiddle
 
aaway
Posts: 1239
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:07 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:02 pm

Qqflyboy,
In reference to your F100 remarks...there is another reason why AA is dumping the Fokkers. When Fokker closed it's doors, it became necessary for AA to manufacture replacement parts for the F100. From what I recall, AA has, or had, a line at TUL devoted to such processes.
Simply stated, it became exorbitanly expensive for AA to continue maintaining the Fokker fleet considering it's financial situation.
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
wedgetail737
Posts: 3637
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 8:44 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:32 pm

I have to agree about the 737NG's...AA should look into the smaller 737NG's if they are looking for a 100-seat aircraft. Although, I have heard that the 737-600 was unattractive because of its weight and price relative to the 700's.
 
tekelberry
Posts: 1309
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 6:37 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 1:49 pm

Qqflyboy,

Get your facts straight. Gerard Arpey specifically stated in the Dallas Morning News last Sunday that they may be in the market for a new 100-seater. They are retiring the F100 because it's costly to maintain them and a tiny bit of capacity reduction.
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:17 pm

Geez yet another oh the 717 is so damn wonderful post. Guys get over it!! It is the retarded step child in the Boeing family. They will sell 737-700s way before they will talk anyone into a 717. If anyone wanted a lame duck McDonnell Douglas design they would not be now a part of Boeing. We get at least one usually more of these almost identical threads a week.. Can people start using the index PLEASE!!
 
AA717driver
Posts: 1502
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 8:27 am

RE: As Time Goes By: Many 767s Bound For Scrapping

Sun Oct 26, 2003 2:39 pm

Wedgetail--Have you ever been inside a 717? To change the cockpit that radically would require recertification of the 717 in that configuration. You're talking about analog versus digital. The entire avionics package is in the VIA in the 717. The cockpit in the -80 is more closely related to a DC-7 than the 717.

Try buying a 737-800 with round gauges... Even SWA had to give up on cockpit commonality.

Any Boeing people want to chime in here?

The 737-6 or 700 are too expensive. The 717 was offered to AA at a lower price than the CRJ-700 after 9/11.

AMR would DEARLY love to have Eagle fly the 170/190's. APA owns everything above 51 seats(except the current CRJ-700's, totaling 50 airplanes). After the recent contract/executive retirement flap, it will be a cold day in He!! when Eagle gets any additional 50+ seaters.

Startvalve--Apparently you don't get through ATL much. Or SYD. Or ATH. Or BKK. The 717 line is still open. The 737 was a slow mover in the '70's, too.
I believe yours is a repeat post, too.TC
FL450, M.85
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:17 pm

AA717driver:

AE has a total of 25 CRJ-700's having recently taken delivery of the last one allowed under scope.

I can only guess what 100 seater AA will order - but only management knows for sure.

I think that the 717 is a nice aircraft but... it really is the stepchild of Boeing's family. If Boeing indeed offered the 717 after 9/11 at a price cheaper than the CRJ-700 you really have to wonder. Obviously Boeing isn't going to make any money on the 717 at that rate so why even bother.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
qqflyboy
Posts: 1617
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:47 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:57 am

Tekelberry...

I never offered up my opinion as fact. I mearly took the information I know to be true and formed my own opinion, hence the "I don't think..."

The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
Thrust
Posts: 2585
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:05 am

I think the 737NGs would be a great choice, because of their fuel efficiency and longer range. However, I think if AA wanted the 717, they would have kept TWA's. It doesn't make sense to get rid of an entire fleet then buy it back again. Although the BMW Rolls Royce engines would fit American's fleet nicely, considering that their Fokkers, 757s, and 777s are all Rolls-Royce powered. Should AA consider buying 737's with winglets? How might that work out?
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
elwood64151
Posts: 2410
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:31 am

AA is in a finacial crunch right now. They're going to look at whoever gives them the best deal for the planes.

As I understand it, FL is getting its 717s at roughly the same rate that the EMB-190 is being offered at. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Since the 717 can offer First Class service, which is far more profitable than coach, it looks like a more economical option to me. For a company like WN or B6, which do not have 1st class, the EMB-190 might be a better option.

As for commonality between the MD-80 and 717, well, think of it like the DC-6B and DC-7. Very similar on the outside and many internal components, but very different in other areas. Remember, Boeing got to make some "improvements" to the MD-95-30 before they decided to call it the 717-200.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:38 am

AE has a total of 25 CRJ-700's having recently taken delivery of the last one allowed under scope.

There's only fourteen or fifteen on the property as of today.
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:49 am

EMB170-190 is getting to be way over-hyped. If AA is truely looking at the 100 seaters, which does make sense, the reliable and already proven B717 will be on top in my opinion. To all those who discredit the B717, it is obvious that you do not work around them almost everyday and hear the great passenger responses about it. I am certain the B717 will find its market and prosper.
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6104
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:05 am

Midway2airtran,

I totally agree with you. I can't believe the way everyone is drooling over the EMB170/190. They really aren't doing anything that hasn't been done before, they're just rolling out a new aircraft in a given market. We've had the F28, the F-100, and the 717. Now Embraer makes it and its the best thing since sliced bread according to some people. The only reason that its getting so much attention is that Embraer is know to make regional jets, and regional jets = paying poverty wages to employees. Airlines are like, "Gee, look how much we can save if we can classify these jets as RJ's, we can pay slave wages!" Haha, nice try pulling this one. Thats simply what all the hype is about. 717 = mainline wages-too expensive
 
qantas747
Posts: 239
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 12:51 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:11 am

I must put an Australian side into this "debate" as QF already operates the 717's and is looking at replacing the RJ fleet with one type. They are heavily looking at the Embraer's and may put an additional order in for the 717's.
QF inherited their current 717's from the now defunct Impulse, and were very happy with them, so they purchased some of the ex-TWA birds. Passengers like it, and it is a great aircraft to fly on some of the lesser routes in OZ, but the one thing that the 717's were lacking in was Range, which is what the Embraer's claim to have..... Knowing QF though, they will wait until the 190's are proven (if in fact they are) in service with JetBlue, and then think about replacing them.

Because QF is on OneWorld, they may follow American's lead, and get a bulk buying thing happening. which still makes it interesting as how the situation will pan out.

Just a couple of thoughts from Downunder

QANTAS747
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:12 am

Midway2airtran:

I don't think that EMB170/190 is getting over-hyped, nor that the 717 is being discredited. I think that the majority of people will acknowledge that the 717 is a nice aircraft but the 190 is obviously a more modern design that is optimized. It is a better all round performer. That is not an opinion but the hard facts based on specs.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Midway2AirTran
Posts: 847
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 7:34 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:32 am

Planemaker,
"It is a better all round performer"

-The EMB170-190 hasn't even flown commercial, NOT yet proven. What are these hard facts comparing the two and sources other than from EMB marketing?
"Life is short, but your delay in ATL is not."
 
JA54123
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:35 am

It really sounds like Boeing should probably look at the 737-600 and find a way to make a lighter version for WN & AA so that they could have fleet commonality and also a proven aircraft with flexibility. One reason the 757 is hard to match in efficiency is that it is flexible. It can fly short higher density routes such as LAX-LAS or it can do transcon with ease and operate from a short runway such as DCA or SNA also. I know that the 737-600 could be made to be a 100 seat aircraft that could do long or short routes and it does have good performance that the regional jets sometimes can't match. The fact is that it needs to go on a diet and be reconfigured a little to be more competitive. I know people have mentioned the 717, however Boeing is not offering the range that is needed for a large route system and it doesn't have any commonality with any other aircraft. It works good for a regional airline or as a longer-range regional feeder aircraft, but it can't do transcon. AA will eventually retire the MD80s, Fokkers(soon) and Airbuses over the next ten years and probably end up with a fleet of just 4 Boeing Aircraft instead of the 7 (4 Boeing, 1 Fokker, 1 MD, and 1 Airbus) Types they currently operate. Also, Eagle is working on consolidating to just ERJs & CRJs it looks, like so there would be no advantage to buying any aircraft that wouldn't have commonality with something they already have.

Just my thoughts  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Jason
You wouldn't understand, it's a Texas Thang!
 
AA737-823
Posts: 4897
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 11:10 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:01 am

Jason,

The 717 will always be more efficient than the 736, due to it's design purpose. The 736 (this has been said a zillion times on this forum, I am just drawing your attention back to it) is designed for longer range ops, while the 717 is designed for shorter hops, with medium range capability. A lightened 737-600 would kinda muddy the waters- how do you lighten it? Shorten it's range? Well, then you have a 737 that doesn't do what 737s do. Other than that, the weight jump from the -500 to the -600 (same capacity, new generation) came with the NG upgrades. So it'd be hard to make it any lighter. And if you did, you'd lose the commonality you had with the other 737NG's, and you're BACK AT SQUARE ONE!!!

There is definitely a market for both the 717 and 736, as sales have sown. I doubt that there is market for the 736 and A318 though... not enough demand to support two competitors of the same product... we'll see!

R
 
Guest

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:10 am

Hell yes its a repeat post AA717 it goes well with the repeat thread... I know Air Tran and Midex love the 717 but have any new airlines placed orders for 717s since Boeing took over? I will go out on a limb here and say probably not. Reason being Boeing would rather sell 737-700s and keep their own babies line running for a few more years and let the retarded step child they keep chained to a pipe in the basement die off. Please in the future use the index every week there are one or two basically identical why did AA drop the 717 threads... Get over it guys. Its a lame duck.
 
dtw9
Posts: 894
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:09 am

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:33 am

have any new airlines placed orders for 717s since Boeing took over?

how about turkmenistan,hawaiian,barvaria leasing, pembroke leasing,midex,twa
only airline to ever buy the MD-95 was airtran.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:24 pm

Midway2airtran:

Yes, you have a point that the 190 has not yet flown, and yes, some unforseen major problem may crop up but...

The 190 engines are from the GE-CF34 family that has a tremendous number of operational hours: A-10, S-3, CRJ-200/700/900, E170, etc. (by the way, much more experience than the BR710/715 family.)

The 190 has 89% commonality with the 170 which has been flying for over two years and will be shortly going into service with US Air and Alitalia.

So, with the above info, you can see that there isn't a whole lot of risk on the technical side for the 190.

As for the better performance:

- The 190 will fly approx. 800 nm further at a higher cruise speed than the 717.

- It will also be over 7,000 lbs lighter so it will have lower landing fees & air navigation fees.

- The cabin is not only more comfortable due to the 4-abreast 18.25" seats (with NO middle seat) and wide aisle but it also allows for faster pax deplanement and boarding for shorter turn arounds.

The above is not a criticism of the 717. As I said in my post, the 717 is a fine aircraft but that the 190 is a more modern design that is optimized for the 100 pax market.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: AA 717 Or Emb-190

Wed Oct 29, 2003 2:55 am

It really sounds like Boeing should probably look at the 737-600 and find a way to make a lighter version

Actually, it already exists. It would be called the 737-500 (Advanced) -- a -500 using the NG cockpit and the slightly newer and more efficient engine model off the -600.

It would take Boeing virtually no time to certify such a model, and they would build it for fairly small orders, I imagine. But no one's really looking for it right now...

Steve