B747-437B
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Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:15 am

Canadian Transport Minister David Collenette says Canada will assess the future of El Al flights to Toronto following a second security threat this week against the airline.

El Al has been flying into Toronto for 20 years. It has its own security personnel at Pearson Airport and what it calls the most sophisticated X-ray machines available, the same level of airport security the airline says it has worldwide.

Even so, Collenette says El Al's future in Canada is being re-examined. "As to subsequent El Al flights, that is something we'll have to deliberate, given the intelligence we receive."

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/10/24/elal031024



"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
cedarjet
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:22 am

El Al have tried to fly to Sydney in the past but as I understand it, Israeli secret service or whatever need certain levels of access and autonomy at airports where El Al fly to ensure the security of their national airline's operations and aircraft, which the Australian gov't aren't willing to grant.

It would be disastrous for Canada if there was a terrorist attack on their soil, despite their proximity to the US they seem to have stayed out of most of the so-called "war on terror", the "Air Canada to Beirut" debacle notwithstanding. I can't see them actually banning El Al but I can see why it's being discussed.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
Trvlr
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:24 am

Expect the future of Air Canada in Tel Aviv to be "assessed" as well, if this movement gains momentum.

Aaron G.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:24 am

It would be disastrous for Canada if there was a terrorist attack on their soil

Actually, the world's worst act of aviation terrorism prior to September 11 - namely the bombing of AI 182 in 1985 was hatched on Canadian soil and wound up killing over 200 Canadian citizens.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 6:47 am

Canada is also very much a participant in the War on Terrorism since they have many soldiers fighting in Afghanistan.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
alonk
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:08 am

El Al dint try to fly to sydney. Sun D'or,a company owned by El Al wanted to fly charter flights utilising the El Al 777's out of BKK and HKG, but because of the tight schedule the flights wouldnt make it back on time to BKKHKG so the idea was dropped,it surely wasnt because of securtiy resaons.
Another thing is that if El Al will stop flying to YYZ,AC will stop as well,and El Al will most likely cut the code share agreements they have with AC.El Al has a pretty wide codesharing agreement with delta to let them cease the flights to canda and let DL fly thier customers out of EWRJFK to continuing destinations in canada.Another thing is that the flights to canda only fly through YYC in order to reduce the aircraft's time on the ground on thier way to LAX.there are not that many pax's that fly into canda on EL AL,most of them continue onto LAX.LY could resume flying through ORD and EWR thier LY105 flights and continue on from there to LAX...so to sum it all up,if LY stops flying to Canada,the only big issue would be a political one.
Alon
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artsyman
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:25 am

Oddly enough, American airliners are just as likely to face a terror attack as EL AL, and god knows a lot more US airliners fly to Canada than EL AL. Odd that we don't see him talking of banning the US carriers. Seems fair ... not

Before someone talks about lack of security alerts with US carriers, I can assure you that way more US Carriers divert to Canada for these things than for EL AL. Take 9.11 for instance, Canada was loaded with US aircraft.

Lastly, if the terrorist is going to try and blow up an EL AL plane, isn't the terrorist in the wrong, and therefore the terrorist should be banned, rather than the EL AL plane, what the hell did the 300 holiday makers do wrong other than be Jewish ?
 
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:58 am

With regards to the side-issue about El Al and SYD- I heard the El Al security staff wished to carry guns and the Australian Federal Police (airport falls under their juristiction) would not permit this under any circumstances.
 
COSPN
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:46 am

EL AL staff have to carry guns so they can "take care of business" if needed without the assistace of airport police..most recently at LAX when an EL AL security agent shot a gunman at the ticket counter, EL AL is just as worried about the check in counter as the Aircraft..but I cant belive Australia would not let EL AL security 'work' the counter they do this all over the world..

EL AL is a target and they need to be allowed to do things their own way..I'm sure the AFP would not block out EL AL from Australia just because of this..
 
jsmith
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:23 pm

A colleague of mine who used work in the legal dept of El Al in Tel Aviv told me that the security issue mentioned above (the refusal by the Australian authorities to let Israeli security 'do their own thing' here) was indeed one of the principal reasons why El Al do not fly to Australia.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:24 pm

Maybe somebody should tell Collenette that you can't get to Israel by Via Rail.
 
COSPN
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:49 pm

I think Australia should re think that..It is really no big deal, Armed security guards..as long as they attend whatever training classes the AFP want them to go through I'm sure they could breaze through the classes..
 
flyboyqf
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:48 pm

Im glad Australia doesnt want Israeli Secret Service/Security or whatever at our airports. Just because they have them in other parts of the world doesnt mean we should have them here. Nothing would antagonise potential trouble makers more than armed Israeli goons stomping around Australian airports
 
COSPN
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:56 pm

They dont stomp around , they are undercover and use small pistols .22's I belive, don't know..They know what to look for and can speak Hebrew and Arabic..not sure manny Aussies can..It is no different than George Bush bringing some of his 'boys' along for the ride.when he goes overseas..I dont see anyone objecting to MEA of Lebanon flying to Australia..this is the world we are living in and Australia and Canada should not try to keep out EL AL or anyone else just because, of hurt feelings or whatever..onething for sure no Sept 11 EVER on El AL..
 
flyboyqf
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:31 pm

Cospn,
The point im trying to make here is that our airports dont need even more armed personnel undercover or otherwise at our airports.Our Federal Police should be sufficient and do a great job already (i know from personal experience as an airline employee). Also you really cant compare the one time circus of Bush last week to the possibility of several weekly scheduled El Al flights in/out of Australia with all the security issues that would entail. If that alone serves to fuel any resentement amongs rival groups in this country then i personally wouldnt like El Al flying here. We are a safe, peaceful and extremely multi cultural society and yes Cospn, ALOT of people here speak Hebrew and Arabic and im sure all share a desire to keep our unique Australian way of life as safe as possible.
Cheers
 
danielbk
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Sun Oct 26, 2003 7:38 pm

I have nothing against this post.

I think most of the forum members who deal with LY issues know my stand.

but it's interesting to see, the few of us who know and usually respond to
EL AL issues, to which subjects we post our opinions, and to which we refrain for various reasons..

cockpit? it's that little room in the front of the plane where the pilots seat.. but that's not important now
 
Guest

RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:35 am

Looks like the threat was real.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 12:48 am

I don't know where I stand on this issue of El Al's own security. It strikes me as a Sovereignty issue. It will take some contemplation.

I do know that it was right of Minister Collenette to bring up the issue before a decision was made. It is not right, however, to single-out El Al. American Airlines is just as likely to be hit by a terrorist attack as LY.

I think the real difference as far as that is concerned is the economic impact of removing AA, UA, US, etc, from the Canadian marketplace. Removing LY has almost no impact what-so-ever. The others have a much greater impact overall.

Just my two cents.

[Edited 2003-10-26 16:48:37]
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
quebecair727
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:01 am

An attack on a plane from Canadian soil happened in the past. If I am not mistaking, this the very first case of a bomb aboard an airplane.


http://www.airsafe.com/events/us_bomb.htm

9 September 49, Quebec Airways (Canadian Pacific Airlines) DC3, near Sault Au Cochon, Quebec: Bomb explodes in number one forward baggage compartment about 40 miles (64 km) from Quebec. The crash killed 23. Three individuals were later executed for the crime.
 
cayman
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:16 am

I think the real point here is the utter ineptitude, incompetence and malfeasance (again) of these clowns known as the Ottawa Liberal government. Collenette is perhaps the worst of the bunch, if you don't include the biggest loser of all, Chretien himself. Any Canadians out there reading this (I am one too), should be ashamed of themselves if they ever voted for Chretien and his corrupt cronies who have single handedly made Canada a joke in the world.

That Collenette would have the gall to consider baninng the flights rather than addressing the real concern which is proper security speaks volumes of how far out of touch with reality the idiot Liberals are.

And to those of you Toronto Star raeders who will inevitably respond with some tired old defence of "Liberal" values: keep up the good work on your efforts to ensure a poorer future standard of living and security for Canada.
 
caribb
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:37 am

If it was a shoulder held missle launcher how can added airport security protect anyone from that? The launcher could be meters or kilometers away from the airport and still shoot the jet down despite all sorts of added high tech equipment and extra security guards... These things are apparantly accureate to 4 kilometers.

Will banning flights solve the problem. Essentially yes, for Toronto at least and with respect to El Al flights only... but it would also mean we caved into terrorists and they got perhaps an alternative to what their original intentions were.. Would this also mean banning El Al from flying anywhere to solve the problem of planes being shot down? Yes, again for El Al only, but it would also mean El Al and Isreal would be caving in to them. None of this is going to happen or should it.

I think the ultimate solution is trying to genuinely make efforts at resolving the issues that lead to people becoming terrorists that have it as their mission blowing planes out of the sky. Not just look for solutions that deal with the symptoms of their anger.

Cayman - I see your point on the Liberal government in Canada but there is one major problem in Canadian politics. There is no real alternative. All we have as alternatives are niche parties that cater to regional needs. They will never be elected and will always be in the House of Commons with no power other than to voice complaints for people and "hope" they can influence the actual government in power. There needs to be a real National opposition and one that has a genuine chance of forming a government, not just complaining about the current one. Right now the Liberal are the only such party that can fill that roll whether we like it or not. So in effect we put Transport Minister Collenette there and we have to live with him and the status quo until we as a country change things to make it all better.

[Edited 2003-10-26 17:39:25]
 
LMP737
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:40 am

Collenette sounds like just another grandstanding politician.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
BA
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:57 am

Cospn,

MEA doesn't require secret undercover agents walking around airports with pistols. They don't do that at any of the destinations they serve.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
kl911
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:22 am

BA,

Maybe that's because terrorists don't like blowing up an Arab airliner?
 
BA
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:36 am

Maybe that's because terrorists don't like blowing up an Arab airliner?

Really? Then why was a Royal Jordanian 727 blown up by Palestinian terrorists?

Anyways, that was not the point. The point is MEA does not have agents that go around undercover carrying pistols.

Cospn was saying that it is strange that Australia banned El Al because El Al requires undercover agents in the airports, when Australia didn't ban MEA.

And the reason is because MEA doesn't require undercover agents operating at airports which is why Australia would not block MEA from operating.

Same goes with any other Arab carrier or ANY other carrier in the world period.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
AWspicious
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:48 am

"Last week's attack threat come three moths after a Croatian man made a bomb threat near an El Al ticket counter, and one month after a St. Catharines, Ont., man was charged for phoning in a bomb threat to Pearson"

I had no idea about those two previous incidents = -|


"I think the ultimate solution is trying to genuinely make efforts at resolving the issues that lead to people becoming terrorists that have it as their mission blowing planes out of the sky. Not just look for solutions that deal with the symptoms of their anger"

Well said! Trouble is, it's easier said than done... Unfortunately. I feel it's got to the point where too much pride and animosity has been built-up. A discussion best had in the non-aviation forum, though.

El Al should not be singled-out because of this terrorist non-sense. The terrorists and those under surveillance should be! Imposing such restrictions on airlines and air travel does nothing to solve the gripes of political and social indifference.

A.W.
Nevermind political correctness - Envision using your turn signals!
 
Guest

RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:57 am

Cayman, I hang my head in shame as I voted for that moron of a PM the first time around. It was more out of sympathy than anything else as I was disgusted by the PC's “is this the face of a leader?” campaign. Little did I know what I voted for and I did not make the same mistake again.

But what good did it do? The Liberal party has a perennial lock on Parliament and there isn’t much that is going to change it with no opposition. All this talk about a “united Right” is simply bullocks and will never happen. Aside from Alberta (sans Edmonton), there isn’t much of a Right in Canada to begin with. Or at least one that is willing to step up, be vocal and take some much needed action.

By the way, the Red Star is the most circulated newspaper in Canada now. Yes, it even beats out nationals such as the National Post (which was terrific until they got rid of Mark Steyn and other level-headed columnists) and the Globe and Mail. Says a lot…
 
B747-437B
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:08 am

The Red Star is the most circulated newspaper in Canada now. Yes, it even beats out nationals such as the National Post (which was terrific until they got rid of Mark Steyn and other level-headed columnists) and the Globe and Mail. Says a lot…

I read both the Star and the Post every day and I think they are both guilty of slanting the news to suit their political agendas. IMHO, that makes them both worthless but alas, they are all we are stuck with up here. At least by reading both sides one can draw one's own conclusions.


"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
GARUDAROD
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 3:21 am


Fyi,

EL AL Security do not only carry pistols. They carry full automatic
weapons, ie machine guns or Uzis. I think that the Australian Govt
has banned any type of this weapon from the country so that may
have been part of the problem with EL AL starting service.
Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
 
Guest

RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 4:30 am

I read both the Star and the Post every day and I think they are both guilty of slanting the news to suit their political agendas. IMHO, that makes them both worthless but alas, they are all we are stuck with up here. At least by reading both sides one can draw one's own conclusions.

The Post is (or was, as he just passed away) owned by the late Israel Asper, who was a strong Liberal supporter and close personal friend of Jean Chretien and other prominent Liberal cabinet members. When he took over the paper from Conrad Black, the shift -- or “slant”, as you so stated -- changed dramatically. You can’t accuse the Post of slanting their message the other way anymore, especially since all their “slanted” columnists have been long gone.

By the way, Izzy Asper was a very strong supporter of Israel. I wonder what his reaction would have been to this situation, especially if it came down to his friend barring El-Al from entering Canada.
 
COSPN
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:18 pm

BA, and Flyboyqf..

I don't want to get in to an Arab/ Israel..thing but countries like the UK, Australia, and the USA, Canada should not be excluding anyone..Just because of Security, I am sure EL AL and the Australian Federal Police could work something out to provide the extra security that is needed for such flights..so EL AL could fly to Australia..that is the point Australia is one of the few "safe" countries left and These days there are folks in Beirut, and Tel Aviv, that are thinking of a trip to OZ..to get away home for a break..
 
flyboyqf
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RE: Collenette Threatens To Ban El Al From Canada

Mon Oct 27, 2003 6:55 pm

Cospn,
I have no trouble with visitors from Tel Aviv, Beirut or wherever. I welcome all international tourists as part of my job and as a proud Australian citizen. The last thing i would want to see happen is any "importing" of various issues that may come about if El Al does start flying here. The obvious outcome may be Australia's status as a "safe" destination may be seriously compromised (then where would "folks from Tel Aviv or Beirut go to get away from home for a break"??)

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