zrs70
Posts: 3313
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:38 am

What transatlantic routes did PA fly that bypassed JFK?
17 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2016
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:47 am

LAX-LHR
SFO-LHR
SEA-LHR
DTW-LHR
ORD-LHR
MIA-LHR
IAD-LHR
BOS-LHR

IAD-CDG
IAD-FRA

SFO-FRA
DTW-FRA

That is if memory has served me correctly! I am sure there are many more as well!




LHR001
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 10:56 am

PA never flew ORD LHR that was TWA.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:07 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John P. Stewart



PAN AM

Utilized the 747 out of ORD for a European Service, I will find out where!




For a fact Pan Am did offer charters, through what tour operator.... not sure. The flights operated were on a 707 ORD-CPH! In the mid 1970's.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefan Ottosson



ORD-CPH
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:09 am

They flew to FRA from ORD I believe they used an Airbus for the route.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:09 am

EWR-LHR back then was served by UAL? Or could that have been a former PAA route?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:16 am

this link may clear up any questions-

http://www.panamair.org/History/PAAMAP~2.jpg

http://www.panamair.org/History/WORLD1.JPG

http://www.panamair.org/History/WORLD2.JPG


 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:16 am

Off the top of my head...


LAX-LHR
SFO-LHR
SEA-LHR
IAD-LHR
MIA-LHR
IAH-LHR (with the L1011-500)
ORD-FRA
LAX-FRA
MIA-CDG
IAD-CDG

Many more obviously.


Steve in New Orleans
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:17 am

LHR001:

not bad, but DTW and MIA were served from LGW, not Heathrow, also Pan Am never flew into CDG, they used ORY and you forgot about IAH-LGW, LAX-FRA,
ORD-FRA, LAX-ORY, SFO-ORY!

Pan Am axed some of those flights later, but did those services when the 747 was introduced in 1970!

Luv2fly:

Pan Am did fly ORD-LHR and alo ORD-FRA

Best Regards

L1011Lover
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:19 am

Excuse me, PA served DTW from LHR up to the time they sold the slots to UA, UA did not buy DTW so it was switched to LGW and also it was TWA that served LHR from ORD never PA
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:19 am

Oh and by the way

www.airchive.com

a wonderful source!!!!
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:19 am

FRA-MIA and DTW-LHR....forgot about those two.

DTW-LHR was flown with the A310-300 and was operated by Delta for a short time after they absorbed PA's routes.


Steve in New Orleans
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:23 am

www.airchive.com

and

www.panamair.org

will clear everything up!
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:24 am

Luv2Fly,

http://www.panamair.org/History/PAAMAP~2.jpg

This may settle your confusion of the ORD-LHR service!

If you recall UAL gained access to LHR via the PAN AM sale!

At one time UAL flew all 747's to LHR

SEA-LHR
MIA-LHR
SFO-LHR
LAX-LHR
IAD-LHR
JFK-LHR

*** O R D - L H R ***
 
bluemeatball
Posts: 174
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 1999 10:44 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:25 am

Also flights out of MIA to:
CDG
FRA

 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:27 am

I am not confused kl777jfk or should I say LHR001 as you now call yourself. I know who flew ORD to LHR and it was TWA as I flew it.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:32 am

Luv2fly:

You´re absolutely right, TWA served the ORD-LHR route, but believe me, so did Pan Am!!!
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:34 am

Luv2Fly,

Please review

http://www.panamair.org

The reason this has been posted was to inform as to former routes. The Pan Am site will help you a lot!


Please do not refer to me as KL777JFK! Who is this person??


LHR001
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:42 am

KL777JFK or as you now call yourself LHR001 do not talk to me like you are the moderator on this board, or question if I am right or wrong as what you think does not matter to me.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
LHR001
Posts: 966
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:56 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:47 am

Wow..

Luv2Fly... ah... take it easy!

just do us a favor and review -

L1011 Lover
and
LHR001

Pan Am DID fly ORD-LHR using a 747!

If you have any questions, I would also ask you to send an inquiry into the PAN AM website at

http://www.panamair.org

A ex-Pan Am employee will gladly advise you of the routes flown!



LHR001
 
nwa man
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 1999 3:24 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:52 am

haha... great call Luv2fly... this kid is definitely Kl777jfk, no matter how much he denies it.

On topic... this is a great thread.
Create your own luck.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:56 am

Hey, hey...

no reason to fight over that issue!!!

Well TWA and Pan Am both flew ORD-LHR-ORD service, that´s it!

Today both UA and AA serve the route, so it does make sense, huh!!!

Peace on Earth, please!!!  Smile

At least in the name of TWA and Pan Am, alright??? LOL

Hugs and Kisses!!!
 
DALinATL
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:18 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:30 pm

This may settle your confusion of the ORD-LHR service!
If you recall UAL gained access to LHR via the PAN AM sale!


No, PA did serve ORD-LHR briefly however this authority was traded to TWA. It then went to AA in 1991 when AA purchased TW's LHR routes. It was not part of the 1991 UA-PA sale. UA did not gain authority to serve ORD-LHR until 1995.
 
L1011Lover
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 5:16 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:24 pm

Hey DALinATL,

...you brought up a pretty good point!
Pan Am and TWA traded so many routes and authorities in the 60´s and 70´s!
And this is how it probably confused us all!
But I mentioned before that several of the routes have been abandoned (or as we now know traded) by Pan Am.
For example in 1975 TWA traded its entire pacific division and Frankfurt to Pan Am for additional London, Paris and Spain flights, (this probably included the ORD-LHR service).I also know that at the time TWA became the dominant carrier out of LHR!
TWA did not resume Frankfurt service until 1981! This was probably also the time when Pan Am returned to Paris?!?! (not sure about that, but will check airchive.com)
Well it was indeed a smart move for both carriers, as Pan Am had its european hub in Frankfurt, while TWA was operating a hub in Paris!

And this is how evrything clears up!!! LOL

Cheers

L1011Lover

 
DETA737
Posts: 617
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2000 3:47 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:45 pm

Ok I'll try to clear up some misconceptions.

First off let's talk about routes to London. Pan Am served ORD-LHR as well as BOS-LHR and PHL-LHR before the 1975 route swap with TWA (TWA gave up DTW-LHR, SFO-LHR and IAD-LHR in return). Both carriers would continue to share LAX-LHR and JFK-LHR. While Pan Am was always the exclusive carrier on the SEA-LHR route. In 1980 after they acquired National, Pan Am began serving MIA-LHR as well (National had been granted LHR route authority in 1970). Around the early 1980s Pan Am was going to begin serving IAH-LGW but pulled out before ever starting the route, since Continental began serving it. It was scheduled to be served with a L-1011-500. In March of 1991 Pan Am sold it's LHR routes to United with the exception of DTW. Since Bermuda II specified only 2 US carriers flying to LHR, Pan Am flew to LGW, it also continued flying MIA-LGW.

Ok so here's a summary:

Atlanta: No non-stop service, but rather a route interchange with Delta to London via Washington, lasted up until 1978.

Boston: service to Lisbon via Santa Maria until 1975, when these two cities became exclusive TWA due to the route swap.

Chicago: service to LHR until 1975. ORD-FRA was briefly served in the late 80s with an A310.

Los Angeles: LAX-LHR and then in 1985 LAX-FRA was inaugurated with a 747.

Miami: In the 60s service to Lisbon and onward to Madrid via San Juan was inaugurated but was cancelled in 1975 due to the route swap. Non-stop service to Frankfurt, London and Paris was inaugurated in 1980 due to Pan Am's acquisition of National Airlines. All these route swere served with 747s by the 1990s. After the Transatlantic routes were sold off to Delta in 1991, MIA-CDG was the very last route served by the airline.

Philadelphia: non-stop service to London until 1975.

Portland: No non-stop service but direct service via Seattle to London.

San Francisco: non-stop service to London. Proposed service to Frankfurt in the late 80s that never started.

San Juan: non-stop service to Lisbon and onwards to Madrid and Rome up until 1975.

Seattle: LHR served until 1991.

Washington: IAD-FRA began in 1985 with 747, while IAD-CDG and IAD-LHR were also served.
 
acvitale
Posts: 1911
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 8:25 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:13 pm

As a former PA employee who flew the FRA-SFO service I can assure you we operated it in 1988-1989.

As well as quite a few missed...

Some include

BOS-LHR
BOS-CDG
IAD-LHR
IAD-FRA
IAD-CDG
SEA-LHR
SFO-LHR
SFO-FRA
LAX-FRA
LAX-LHR
LAX-CDG
MIA-CDG
MIA-LHR
MIA-FRA
DTW-LHR
MCO-FRA (very briefly)
IAH-LGW
 
md-87er
Posts: 151
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 4:06 am

RE: PA's Non-JFK Transatlantic Routes

Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:37 pm

Well, I am not a PanAm Expert, but I found an old timetable from June 74 and so I have to add some fine-tuning to the last post:

San Juan: Non-stop to Madrid (3 days per week) and via Lisbon (2 days per week) PA 254/255 with 707

Boston: Non-stop to
FRA (PA 52) 707
LHR (PA 54) 747
CDG (PA 66) 707
Rome (PA 146) 707
Lisbon (PA 148) 707
and all flights daily
all of these Boston flights started in other cities (Detroit, Washington, Philadelphia and Chicago)

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