KAL744
Topic Author
Posts: 359
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:05 am

FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:32 am

Hi, all !

I just read about the A340-500. Would it be possible for the A340-500 to operate a nonstop FRA to SYD service with passengers? If so, is there a service like that planned for the future?
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StarFlyer
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Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2002 10:07 am

RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:49 am

Well... according to Airbus the A340-500 is able to fly 8,650nm nonstop. According to the Great Circle Mapper the distance is 8,906nm as the bird flies. So this would not be possible unless the aircraft was payload restricted, even then I think there would definitely be a problem particularly on the way from SYD to FRA due to prevailing winds.

However this would be an interesting route. Though LHR-SYD would probably have a lot more pax demanding a nonstop flight.

Regard

StarFlyer
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
mt99
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:56 am

I wonder how many LHR passengers would prefer to change planes in Europe rather than Hong Kong, Singapore, Bangkok ect..

Acoording to the GCM, ATH-SYD may be possible

SYD%0D%0A&PATH-COLOR=red&PATH-UNITS=mi&SPEED-GROUND=&SPEED-UNITS=kts&RANGE-STYLE=best&RANGE-COLOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=>

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Andreas
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:00 am

I believe this discussion was led a few years ago, when Airbus was discussing ranges of A340-8000, whether airlines are interested in super-longhaul etc. I seem to remember that nonstop routes Europe-Australia were economically said to be not that interesting, especially since there is not that much time saving as compared to a one-stop flight (like it is done via BKK or SIN or KUL).
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s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:01 am

Yes, but is this range based on what? zero payload?
It is useless to fly an empty plane

Rgds

RS
"ad astra per aspera"
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:24 am

No, that's the range based on full pax/bags/fuel with zero cargo.


Also, for what it's worth... the 772LR's expected 10,553mi range can cover the great circle distance from FRA to SYD whereas the A345 cannot; but even the twinjet will not have the legs for the (practical application) still air distance, westbound.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rb211
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:28 am

Did'nt QF do a non-stop from LHR to SYD on a 744 LongReach?
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KAL744
Topic Author
Posts: 359
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:38 am

RB211,

The QF flight was a delivery flight as I might remember correctly, but it was flown empty, as I know.
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joleb
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 3:49 am

so this means if you purchase a private 777-200LR or 747-400ER that you could teachnically reach Sydney from London with only maximum 15 people on board.

If you know that the Arabs have 747-400ER's VIP converted , than you can asuume they could do that right?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:49 am

QR Emiri has a private A345... no one thus far has corporate 772LRs nor 744ERs.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
aussie747
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Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:15 pm

RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:01 am

That 744 delivery flight did use a more expensive lighter aviation fuel and had 28 total pax including crew by memory that was on 1989 for its first ever 747-400 model.

It would be interesting if a model could take full load full pax SYD-LHR non stop(as there would be a huge demand, so many pax prefer to get their ASAP with as few stops as possible)
however the practicality of such a service would be difficult, DVT, hours it could run you would have to have the service running either very early AM or LATE PM from Sydney to make curfew hours, whilst from London It would not be able to depart in the evening it would have to depart in the morning only - that is unless this new aircraft were to operate faster than the current standard of mach 0.8 to 0.85
 
mandala499
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Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:41 am

Well, most Europe - Australia flights "redistribute" their passengers at either SIN/KUL/BKK/HKG.

LHR/FRA/AMS/CDG/FCO/ZRH to SIN/KUL/BKK/HKG then they redistribute to PER/ADL/MEL/SYD/BNE(and AKL).

EK is doing this too now though DXB.

Talking to a couple of SQ, GA and MH people, they said only London-Sydney did not require such "redistribution" all year round. The rest of Europe do need redistribution at a point somewhere. So, a direct FRA-SYD flight mean pax are distributed at SYD (and to a certain extent... FRA). I had a discussion with a couple of analysts a few years back and they said if Qantas ever does an extreme long haul flight it would be All points in Australia to PER, then PER-Europe direct. Hence keeping the redistribution at one point only. But, the current airport layout wouldn't make it convenient.

Given the larger population and the higher population density in Europe than Australia, it makes more sense however to make the distribution point either in Asia or in Europe instead of within Australia...

The Asian redistribution point also allows the airline to serve the Asia-Australia market aswell... and a little cargo on board.

However, traffic between Europe and Australia is very dependent on Y class pax... tourists. Will tourists want a direct flight for a little higher price, or just go with the current arrangement.



Mandala499
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Guest

RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:48 am

I can think of nothing worse than boarding an aircraft at LHR and not getting off until it arrived at SYD. What a nightmare of a journey it would be cooped up in an aluminium tube for that length of time.
 
ahlfors
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:48 am

Another interesting "re-distribution" point would be Helsinki, at only 8202 nm from Sydney, which is closer than Athens at 8247 nm. All the other major Australian points are less than 8200 nm from Helsinki, so with a 345 this could be possible.... though my guess is Finnair is not going to go out and buy a bunch of 345s to fly to Australia.
 
PER744
Posts: 397
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:57 am

PER would be a possibility as a redistribution point, but only after the master plan for the airport is acted on.
 
ted747
Posts: 190
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:59 pm

I knida agree - that amount of time in an aircraft, DVT, the extra catering etc - it would drive people nuts cooped up that long. Many people now days are over-nighting in SIN, HKG, BKK for example to break the flight and make it more bearable.

From a consumer perspective I don't think there is the demand for super long haul non stop flights.

cheers
ted.
 
StarFlyer
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RE: FRA - SYD Nonstop?

Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:43 pm

It's not like everyone overnights at SIN, HKG or BKK. I am sure there is plentyof people, particularly high yield business people, that would like a direct flight if that would shave a few hours off the travelling time. I agree that this would possibly only work on LHR-SYD.
If you prefer to stop over, dear Ted, then I'm sure there will still be plenty of connections available. That way, everyone's happy!  Smile
Yours truly - StarFlyer

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