teahan
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Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:49 pm

Air India’s Board has selected a mix of Boeing and Airbuses for the upcoming order: 18 B737-800 and 10 A340-300, all powered by CFM engines. Deliveries over a period of 5 years replacing A310 and B747-200 aircraft.

http://us.rediff.com/money/2003/nov/08ai.htm

http://www.airindia.com/article.asp?articleid=229

Nice to see some new "commitments" to the A340-300, which hasn't won much of late. How many committees until a firm order.. 3 years or would that be an underestimation.

Jeremiah


[Edited 2003-11-08 15:52:33]
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:31 am

I wish Air India could have taken some 73Gs, so we can have at least a few examples of a 737-737.  Wink/being sarcastic BTW, aren't there any used A343s parked around somewhere, looking for a home? Seems to me Boeing took some in trade a few years back. Regards.
"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
 
Leskova
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:37 am

FlagshipAZ, if you're thinking of the ones that Boeing traded in from SQ - they've all been placed with operators again, so these seem to be new orders... as soon as all the committees have met and agreed to the purchase... look out for the A340s and B737NGs to arrive some time around 2010...  Big grin
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IndianGuy
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:45 am

The 737-800 just doesnt make any sense. The A320 would have given commonality benefits with IC which operates over 36 A320's and is ordering another 43 as also with the A340-300's.

But then again this is India we are talking about! So expect this decision to go to a commitee which will then refer it to a sub-commitee. Expect the deal to be finalized by 2015 odd.

BTW, I hear the B737-800's are to be transferred to a sub-airline. The Naresh Goyal connection? Sean, can you chip in here?

-Roy

[Edited 2003-11-08 16:47:53]
 
codeshare
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:00 am

An order mix that satisfies (but not fully) Airbus and Boeing.
Are the 738s going to be equipped with winglets?

Were they thinking of the 777 and A330 or A346?
How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:57 am

This is an entirely political deal. The Hathi committee's technical reccomendation was for 777s and 738s but the French offered some major outsourcing of A380 components to HAL as well as military technology if the A340 was selected. And the rest is history....

Now of course, it goes to the ministry for approval and then to Cabinet and then to CCS. So we are still looking at another year or two in the process, by which time the A340 will hopefully be out of production.

No I'm not pleased. I'm going to refrain from participating in topics about this for now - I'm that upset about it. And you can be sure I'll be giving the folks on the committee a piece of my mind when I next run into them.

Bah. Sad day for Indian aviation again.

PS. I find it ironic that PR Director Jitender Bhargava got his own AI facts messed up in his press briefing. I think thats just symptomatic of the mess that this transaction has turned into.

[Edited 2003-11-08 17:59:21]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:04 am

This is an entirely political deal.

Exactly! Some things never change. Air-India preferred the 762 in the 80's but they were forced to buy the 313. Once again, an airline restricted by the shackles of an interfering government is forced to buy an aircraft it does not want.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Going64
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:14 am

... here we go again; let's make a competition who will be first in this thread saying something like "tax payers money" or "landing rights" or "Boeing Military division" or "under cost price" or "I ain't going if ...."; silly silly silly
 
Guest

RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:30 am

Yyz717,

I think you shouldn't think that only one manufacturer is putting on political pressure. Boeing and Airbus have both forced some orders using political pressure. Another good example of this was El Al, who wanted to go for Airbus and due to U.S. government pressure went for Boeing, the same can be said for Japan or China...

Cheers,
Tim
 
manni
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:31 am

Indeed Going64, that's a sad state of affairs, the way this kind of threads develop. Just wait a couple more hours to see it happening as it is now only noon on a saturday in the US and certain people might stil have to discover this news....  Big grin

'Once again, an airline restricted by the shackles of an interfering governement is forced to buy new aircraft it does not want'

Wrong thread Yyz717, this isn't about the ELAL order...  Laugh out loud
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Korg747
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:41 am

I'm quite disappointed in that A340 choice but that's ok. It will be fun to hear all those storys about how the a340 struggles to fly with the tons of load air India has  Big grin. and no AIRBUS VS BOEING INTENDED HERE!

[Edited 2003-11-08 18:42:44]
Please excuse my English!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:43 am

Oh well, least we wont have to "worry" about any AI nonstops to the Americas any time soon  Big grin
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The777Man
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:52 am

Very disappointing since Capt. Hathi actually had recommended the 777 over the 340. Hopefully things can change again !  Smile

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:13 am

I wonder why they had to choose the A340-300. A340-500 would have been a much better Idea.

By the time AI order and get the A343, Airbus will probably be making the last of those planes.


And again , a better combination would have been the 777-300ER and the A320/A321.

Did AI not go in for the 777 because PIA has gone in for it???? Just a thought....
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:29 am

I wonder why they had to choose the A340-300. A340-500 would have been a much better Idea.

Because back when the initial bid was taken, the 777NGs were barely in existance and the A340NGs werent considered. It never was modified to include either.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:46 am

As an aside, I should add that the board also approved the purchase of 9 low bed, air conditioned passenger buses to transport pax to/from remote bays at BOM airport.

Ironic that the buses may actually be more powerful than the aircraft.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
AA737-823
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:51 am

IT sounds to me like this is not a case of the manufacturer pressuring the airline, Boeing 747-400, but the government of India. That's what it sounds like.

If someone evaluated it and said that they should go for 777s, they should have. How can we make progress when we are only going backwards? These middle-ages- type of buying tactics areridiculous. Yes, I would be disappointed if they had gone all Airbus, but if that's what they wanted, they should have done it. On the same hand, I want them to buy all Boeing (especially over the 343- who likes that plane??? The 345, okay, but 343? geesh) and if that's what they want, then they should buy THAT.

Buy what makes sense, not what the government tells you to.
Here in the USA, the government doesn't seem to pressure the airlines (helps that they're not state run, huh?) into buying decisions. Hence we have AA, US, NW, UA, AmWest, and JetBlue flying Airbusses, and AA, DL, CO, AS, and others flying Boeings. Everyone is happy- they did what they wanted. AND- I as a passenger can choose which airline to suit my own needs, rather than the government telling me that Airbusses are better for widebodies, and Boeings for narrowbodies.

Our gov't here in the states has meddled in the past, but we're deregulating lots of industries- electricity, airlines, phone companies, cable tv, are all examples of things that have been de-reg'd in the last 20 years or so.

I hope that Air India can make their decisions work out.
 
gamps
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:53 am

Well if Airbus is promising more component deals to Indian companies, I guess it is a win-win situation for both India and Airbus? Airbus can outsource some component production to India and benefit from cheap production costs. HAL already produces many components for the A320 family including plane doors.

So far we have the following arguments against AI selecting A340s in this thread:

* It is a slow climber
* It is almost at the end of production line.

Anyway with general elections round the corner in India, I doubt if anything will happen at all before 2004 end. Last thing govt would want is opposition raising the issue of "kickbacks"

Cheers
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:28 am

The pressure on El Al and China Airlines to buy American was entirely proper. The reasons should be entirely obvious.

On the contrary the EU's whining, complaints and threats when ANA opted to dump their A320s for 737NG and when CI selected GE engines for A330 was utterly improper and ridiculous. Again, the reasons should be entirely obvious to even the most casual observer.

I hope the Indian government realizes that the French also sell military technology to Pakistan. In fact, I believe the French sell the same submarines to both countries.

I wonder if the guys who picked the 343 understand the concept of density altitude. Given the country's hot and humid climate, they seem to have picked the single worst airplane type for those conditions. Or perhaps the 343 will only depart at night.

[Edited 2003-11-08 21:31:42]
 
David_itl
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:39 am

The pressure on El Al and China Airlines to buy American was entirely proper.

Aah, the logical Henry Ford extension: "You can buy any aeroplane you like, as long as it's American".

Just because YOUR money is being donated to those countries does not give the US the right to determine, through none too subtle hints, the choice of aircraft and engines for any of the state airlines.


David
 
Leskova
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:30 am

AA737-823, you ask "especially over the 343- who likes that plane???" - and I can provide you with a very simple answer: passengers - plain, simple and normal passengers.

If you take the time to ask them, quite a lot of them will tell you that they do not appreciate the powerful and steep takeoffs that some, especially around here, seem to enjoy so much - for quite a few, that's actually the most dreaded moment of the flight.

Another thing passengers tend to prefer is low noise levels, and anyone who's flown on a 343 and on a 777 knows which one wins that contest... hint: they do not speak english in the country where the final assembly of the plane is located.

Yes, in a lot of - or maybe even most - cases the 777 will, in the long term, be the economically superior choice, but there are also those cases when, for whatever reasons or by whatever fateful event, an airline (or those controlling the airline) will make a different selection (maybe even because the A340 will, in the long term, be the more economical choice for them).


N79969, your comments really sound alot like a "you are free to buy whatever you like, as long as we make it" attitude: either there is a free market (and in the case of airliners, sadly, we are very, very far away from that) or there isn't a free market.

In case there is no free market then, unfortunately, both sides will have to accept that, occasionally, an airline will order (by being forced to do so) the product that they did not want.

Air India is just another one in the long line, together with El Al and China Airlines - just accept it, it's a fact of life, or - just to keep thrashing clichees -see that the pendulum swings both ways.

I'm just thinking... if our European goverments finally got their acts together and really used their negotiating power (as well as their intelligence & secret services) as the US regularly does... just imagine how many more Airbusses would be flying around then!

Oh, and one final point: ever had a look at the timetables of Air India? Barely any long distance flights go out during the day, so, indeed, the 343 probably will almost always be going out at night... just as the 742s and 744s do at the moment.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:39 am

Leskova,

Think for a moment why I say it is entirely appropriate for the United States government to apply pressure (very heavy if necessary) so that the flag carriers of Taiwan and Israel buy American. Think for a brief moment. I assume that you realize that those countries would not exist but for the aegis of U.S. military. Now why is it that U.S. government did not make a sound when Taipei-based EVA Airways opted for A330?

It is interesting that it is the French who are transferring military technology. I thought Airbus was "European." Why is it the French who are exerting pressure?

By the way as far as the U.S. using its intel services, I think it has proven to be a good thing. We intercepted a fax of the French trying to bribe the Saudis to buy Airbus.

That there is no free market in airlines is truly the fault of Europe and particularly France.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:42 am


No I'm not pleased. I'm going to refrain from participating in topics about this for now - I'm that upset about it. And you can be sure I'll be giving the folks on the committee a piece of my mind when I next run into them.

Bah. Sad day for Indian aviation again.


Sean: We all have our favorite aircraft's which we would like to see in the colors of our favorite airline. But if the A340 is good enough to be operated by airlines like LH,SQ,VS,CX etc tehn I dont think there is a problem with the aircraft itself.

As far as the A340 being underpowered is concerned, if it can take off, fly with a full load on a 10 hour flight and land safely, and do that in the most economical manner then that should be enough.

And if the reasons were political, we would have seen 777's and not A340's, becuase the US has been putting tremendous pressure through their embassy here. Wonder why the A320's were not ordered and why the 738 was chosen instead, when the A320 would have nicely complimented the A340's.

Now THAT is a political decision!

-Roy
 
behramjee
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 6:43 am

Ok one can understand how important this deal was from a political point of view but even if that was the case, the order should have been reversed.

It should have been 10 B 777-200ERs and 18 A 320-200s. Why? Its pretty simple, Air India and Indian Airlines are one big family, so with IC already having around 30 A 320s, it would have been far more easier for AIs crew-pilots-engineers etc to get some expert help on what to do with A 320s for which IC help can easily be obtained. Plus AI and IC could have combined their A 320 order to make it total 61 aircraft (43 IC 18 AI) where by attracting a larger discount from AIRBUS!!!

As for why the B 772ERs, its pretty simple there too as it flies faster than the A 343 therefore burning less fuel and being more efficient. It also has a larger seating capacity which AI needs as it will be installing beds in F & J classes. Its also cheaper to fly a 2 engine aircraft than an a 4 engine one plus the range of the B 772ER is greater than the A 343!!!

One last thing I want to point out is that why are people saying that the B 738s are replacing the A 313s? I have not read any article anywhere that says this. Their A 313s have 200 seats whilst the B 738s have 146 plus lesser range. The only thing left for BOEING to do is to MAKE SURE that when the time comes in 2008-09 for AIR INDIA to get rid of its A 310s, that the B 7E7 Basic Version is chosen come what may as it will be an order worth around 20+ aircraft!!!

Overall I am greatly disappointed in this decision of AIs!!! Lets hope that BIMAN gets B 772ERs to replace its DC 10-30s.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:30 am

This is the same reason why Japan is pretty well locked up by Boeing.

Its a common occurence. We might not like it, but both sides definitely hide behind the shield of government often.

N
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:31 am

"Just because YOUR money is being donated to those countries does not give the US the right to determine, through none too subtle hints, the choice of aircraft and engines for any of the state airlines."

Yes it actually does give us that right.
 
gigneil
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:32 am

No, no it doesn't give us that right, and well you know it.

N
 
Leskova
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:40 am

Well, if helping another country gives you the right to expect them to buy your products... considering, how much development aid is going from Europe to countries around the world - compared to that coming from the US - I'd say that Airbus had better expand their capacity: they'll be needing it soon, because so many countries will be obliged to buy planes from Europe... goodie, goodie!!!

But, back to reality: giving aid to a country does not give you the right to make decisions for them - never has, never will: sure, most countries will accept decision making input from the donor country, but still, the donor country - under absolutely no circumstances - has the right to expect the recipient country to do whatever it wants.

That's what most would consider installing puppet regimes - the recipient country essentially would not need a government anymore, the decisions that count would be taken in the donor countries capital anyhow...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:44 am

What an asinine decision.
So much for integration of AI/IC ops.

Looks like some babus got their hands greased to a higher degree by the French.

But by the time this deal goes through committees A,B,C,D,E and back, the picture will look very different.

Until then, I'm sure some tinpot African charter carrier has A310-300s for sale that AI can buy, and I'm sure that Korean Air will continue to offload ageing 744s.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SR 103
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:18 am

Behreamjee,

As for why the B 772ERs, its pretty simple there too as it flies faster than the A 343 therefore burning less fuel and being more efficient.

Just for your info, that is absolutely inaccurate. The A340 burns far less fuel than the 777. I am not sure where you got your information from, but all you have to do is look at all the studies out there regarding the fuel burn of the two aircraft. As slow as the 340’s are compared to the 777, it burns a lot less fuel.

Its also cheaper to fly a 2 engine aircraft than an a 4 engine one plus the range of the B 772ER is greater than the A 343!!!

Once again, could you back this up with facts? My roommates who are Aerospace Engineer students have proof in their books that there is no such thing. It is not cheaper to fly a two engine aircraft vs. a four-engined one.

Facts need to be put behind the numerous statements that you post on these boards all the time. I expect this from a 13 year old arm chair CEO but not you. If you do not post facts it just becomes an A vs. B war.

SR 103
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:45 am

"No, no it doesn't give us that right, and well you know it."

Give it up.

I am glad the US government strong arms them into buying Boeing. The governments of Israel and Taiwan would not exist but for the United States. It follows that the flag carriers would not exist either. When China started testing missles in the Taiwan strait in 1996, who sent an aircraft carrier into the strait? It was not an EU country. American blood and dollars guarantee the existence of those countries. They save billions on defense and can afford to launch and support state airlines. Thus the is U.S. well within its right to demand that they buy American when their state-owned carriers decide to spend billions of what are essentialy our tax dollars rather than propagating the elaborate European jobs program known as Airbus.

"Well, if helping another country gives you the right to expect them to buy your products... considering, how much development aid is going from Europe to countries around the world - compared to that coming from the US - I'd say that Airbus had better expand their capacity: they'll be needing it soon, because so many countries will be obliged to buy planes from Europe... goodie, goodie!!!"

It already happens. How many former French colonies have bought Boeing lately? If Taiwan or especially Israel are ever attacked, the Taiwanese and Israelis can bet that no Europeans will be there to help them in their time of need. They will light a few candles and make some grand speeches but little else....

Good Reading:

"Airbus's secret past

Jun 12th 2003
From The Economist print edition


On the eve of the Paris Air Show, we explore the corrupt and allegedly corrupt methods that have boosted past sales"


***********

LH: cancelled/converted their outstanding their 343 orders
SQ: Getting rid of their 343
VS: ?? also getting rid of 343s?? not sure
CX: returning the 343s at the end of their lease

" becuase the US has been putting tremendous pressure through their embassy here."

I suppose the French were trying new curry recipes at their embassy.



[Edited 2003-11-09 00:53:24]
 
Leskova
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:48 am

N79969, just noticed I missed one of your posts...

Now why is it that U.S. government did not make a sound when Taipei-based EVA Airways opted for A330?

LOL... I think that says all that needs to be said about that...


By the way as far as the U.S. using its intel services, I think it has proven to be a good thing. We intercepted a fax of the French trying to bribe the Saudis to buy Airbus.

Well, I guess that depends on where you read the story about that - outside of the US, and not only in Europe - that was reported as the US using their intelligence services to find intercept the faxes that Airbus sent to Saudia with the offers - enabling Boeing to undercut them each and every time...


That there is no free market in airlines is truly the fault of Europe and particularly France.

As you'll not be surprised to hear - I beg to differ... there are more than enough reports out there in which countries here put under US government pressure to buy Boeings.

And, honestly, what does Europe have to excert pressure? Whatever the French can offer, in terms of military products, the US can offer, too - not sure how this looks the other way around...

A country that negotiates with the US might be able to get access to several airports for their airline(s) - what can the French offer? CDG... yeah, right - real pressure point when compared to JFK, ORD, LAX, SFO, MIA, ...

And, for another thing, Europe does not have a directive ordering it's aviation regulation authority to give out better slots to airlines operating Airbus aircraft - the congress has given such a directive to the FAA (which was the reason for a senator to lash out at the FAA a few months back, complaining about JetBlue getting good slots at JFK while not operating American build aircraft).

So, as for the French, or Europe, being the main hinderance for a free market for airliners... well, I've already said it - I beg to differ with your opinion.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:48 am

"The A340 burns far less fuel than the 777. I am not sure where you got your information from, but all you have to do is look at all the studies out there regarding the fuel burn of the two aircraft. As slow as the 340’s are compared to the 777, it burns a lot less fuel."

Not true. That your roommate is an aerospace engineer does not substantiate your claim.

The 340 takes longer to get to cruise and has a slower cruise speed. The additional time aloft negates and reverses the specific fuel consumption advantage that 340 enjoys in theory.

A simpler way of looking at it is that 772ER has outsold the 343 despite the former's higher price. Why?
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:55 am

The French have been trading CDG slots for Airbus orders in a very poorly kept secret manner. Slots usually are received within days of getting an order.
 
vinovalentino
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:56 am

Would ETOPS certification figure into this decision (340) at all? AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety. It may be similar to the BWIA decision to go with the 340...

Just a thought (actually a question)...
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:58 am

All these arguments are academic.

Air India is an instrument of the Government of India, and as such is a tool to effect public and international policy. Its aircraft purchases after the reins of control were passed over to nameless, faceless IAS types appointed by the center in about the mid-80s have always been politically motivated. Rajiv Gandhi and his hideous Congress(I) party began the trend with the A310 purchases once he forced JRD Tata to leave Air India, and this trend continues today with the BJP.

However, all of you are focussing entirely on the A343 purchase. The Boeing 738 purchase is just as asinine. Air India and Indian Airlines could have had a mixed fleet of A318s, 319s, 320s and 321s operating on Gulf, South Asian and SE Asian routes.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 8:59 am

Would ETOPS certification figure into this decision (340) at all? AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety.

AI has been running ETOPS certified A310s for 17 years now. Furthermore, AI is one of the few maintenance operations in Asia that is certified ISO 9002. AI's security systems are also a benchmark that most other airlines aspire to. The fact that even El Al contracts part of their security operation at BOM out to AI should speak volumes for itself.

Do a bit of research before trying to sling mud. It just makes you look like an idiot.

[Edited 2003-11-09 01:03:17]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:01 am

"AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety."

AIs reputation for service may be justifiably lousy.

However, its safety record is very good, with no fatal aircrash since 1985 (which in any case was caused by a terrorist bomb that slipped through Toronto airport security).
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
SR 103
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:01 am

N79969

Not true. That your roommate is an aerospace engineer does not substantiate your claim.

I never said "he" said that. I said it states that in his textbook. You are correct. However the burn/hr is lower due to the lower cruising speed - and hence in that context is more efficient.

SR 103
 
vinovalentino
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 9:23 am

B747-437B

Easy fellow. I specifically posted my post as a question.

Definition of an idiot... A grown man who has the time to post an average of 6 times a day over an 18 month period.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:29 pm

Sean said:

As an aside, I should add that the board also approved the purchase of 9 low bed, air conditioned passenger buses to transport pax to/from remote bays at BOM airport.

Ironic that the buses may actually be more powerful than the aircraft.

Ok. Now dont exagerate! The A340's can safely operate out of Indian airports and every airport that AI currently operates to. If LH, AF and VS can deliver a quality product with their A340's then AI should be able to do it. And look at UL. Dont they do a fantastic job with the same so-called underpowered, pathetic climbing aircraft? The fault does not lie with the A340. The reasons lie elsewhere....! If people suggest that going out and buying a dozen 777's would suddenly make AI world class then I am sorry, but not happening!

Say it again: The "political deal" here is the Boeing 737-800. It just doesnt fit. The A320 fits in better for a variety of reasons. I see the 737-800 has been put in for 2 reasons: One to mollify the Americans and Two:To satisfy the Jet Airways camp which has invested a sizeable sum in a 737 maintainance facility for which the only customer is Jet itself. Since the AI 737-800's are going to the new subsidiary, I expect maintainance to be farmed out to Jet and some sort of codeshare arrangement as well: in short a backdoor entry for Jet into intl markets.

Valentino said:

Definition of an idiot... A grown man who has the time to post an average of 6 times a day over an 18 month period.

Now! Now! Be nice everybody! Theres no need to be bitter!
 
ba319-131
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:59 pm

Well,I am shocked,I figured the 777 had this sewn up with the 320/321 taking the narrowbody order.

A few points:-

This order may take years to become deliveries give they way thinks are,see the IC order.

Airbus has not stated when production of the 343 will end,nor indicated that the 345 and 346 are replacements for the 342/343 series.

As a passenger,the 340 series is much nicer than the 777,hell,the 777 is a very noisy airplane.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:05 pm

"As a passenger,the 340 series is much nicer than the 777,hell,the 777 is a very noisy airplane."

Please. Lets not exaggerate. I take BA's 777 to London all the time and love it. And, yes, the A340 is a lovely airplane, especially in coach where you just cant beat the 2-4-2 seating arrangement.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:28 pm

SR103:

If twins are not cheaper to operate than quads, then there is no reason why more and more twins are being used to fly long distance routes that were exclusively flown with tri- and quad-jets. If it doesn't give airlines any economic advantage, why do you think airlines would want to pay for extra redundancy systems and follow more rigorous maintenance procedures? You don't need an engineering degree to think through this logic. But I happen to be an aerospace engineer working in the industry. I think I should know more than your roommate who is only an aerospace engineer student, right?  Wink/being sarcastic

But you're right, the 343 usually burns less fuel than the 772ER on a per trip basis. The 343 is a smaller and slower plane than the 772ER. So it's not a big surprise that the 343 burns less fuel because one needs less energy, hence less fuel, to move a smaller object at a slower speed. Because the 772ER carries more passenger, the fuel burn per seat of the 343 and 772ER is pretty close, with the 343 having a slim advantage. The per seat fuel cost advantage of the 343 is quickly wiped out when you include other costs. Why do you think there are so many airlines interested in the 332 but very few bought the similarly sized and ranged 342?
 
miamix707
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Sun Nov 09, 2003 10:41 pm

777s would have looked perfect in the palace in the sky livery. The a340s will probably get a grey belly instead of the polished aluminum look
 
manni
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:05 am

Going64,

Congratulations your predictions came out. The whining has begun, nevertheless that wont change anything! Good on you Airbus and Air India, your free aircraft are coming your way, along with a couple extra slots at CDG  Big thumbs up
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L-188
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:17 am

However the burn/hr is lower due to the lower cruising speed - and hence in that context is more efficient.

So basically if it works as it should with everything else being equal, pulling back the throttles on a 777 to an A-340 cruise will make up for the difference too.
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jaysit
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:31 am

I predict that this whole deal will go back to the drawing board with the A340-500 emerging as an alternative. The whole thing will start all over again, new aircraft types will be put on the drawing board. Thats what happens when folks who know nothing about airplanes are in charge of making decisions.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
N79969
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:35 am

"One significant military deal in the offing is the French offer for upgraded Mirage 2000-5's which the IAF undoubtedly needs. But there is little else. The ONLY other way the French can help militarily is with the stalled programme to build a reactor for the indegenous Nuclear Submarine.

There is undoubtedly space for co-operation and a successful aircraft deal like the AI/IC deal will undoubtedly help cement the friendly Franco-Indian relationship further.In space we can really get together and co-operate, and indeed that it already happening,as the Indian PSLV/GSLV launchers use the same payload adapters as the Ariane and there is an agreement to enable co-ordinated commmercial launches. Then there are the outsourcing contracts which Indian aviation companies can
undoubtedly benefit from. So I think overall Airbus makes better sense overall."

Ah, yes the 340 was chosen over the 777 on the airplane's merits. That's right. Now I get it. Whatever India gets from France, Pakistan will get as well if they pony up the cash.

Maybe we should emulate the French and deliver those F-16 since their airline went with Boeing.

It's funny that U.S. lobbying is called pressure. And French machinations approaching blackmail are considered mutually beneficial.


**********

Manni,

It's funny that you like Airbus that much considering that their improper dealings helped precipitate the failure of Sabena.

[Edited 2003-11-09 18:37:10]
 
Scorpio
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RE: Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800

Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:08 am

I find it rather funny that certain members (always the same ones BTW *cough*N79969*cough*) find a way to bitch continually every time Airbus wins an order. I also find it quite laughable how these SAME members see absolutely NO problem in the second part of the order, which is for Boeings, where the rumours suggested Airbus for this part, and the 'bus seems to fit better in the fleet (IC), as has been mentioned already.

Ah, yes the 340 was chosen over the 777 on the airplane's merits. That's right. Now I get it.

And why would that be so impossible?

It's funny that U.S. lobbying is called pressure. And French machinations approaching blackmail are considered mutually beneficial.

It's even funnier how your hatred of everything even remotely French shines through in each and every one of your posts, and so very obviously clouds your judgment. Also funny how you COMPLETELY IGNORED the article Roy posted which suggests the order was split between A and B because of pressure from the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Because, no matter how you twist it and turn it, both the US and Europe use their political influence to win orders. That's a fact, and no evasive maneuvers and France-bashing on your part is going to change a damn thing about that.

It's funny that you like Airbus that much considering that their improper dealings helped precipitate the failure of Sabena.

See, more bullshit from you. Exacly which 'improper dealings' on the part of Airbus helped kill SN? Oh, and FACTS please, no unsubstantiated rumours and hearsay please...

[Edited 2003-11-09 19:11:45]

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