727LOVER
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Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:05 am

http://www.dfwairport.com/visitor/maps.htm

If an LCC wanted to truly build a hub at DFW, would there be room for a new terminal? Judging by the picture, I'd say yes, there could be a Terminal D or F.

AA should worry.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 12:16 am

There IS a Terminal D being built as we speak. This will be the new International facility for all airlines serving DFW, and is due to be completed in 2005, IIRC. Maybe some of the locals can confirm this. You can find pics and videos at the same dfwairport.com website.

When DFW was originally planned, there were TEN semi-circular terminals that could be built, depending on demand.

If an LCC wanted to set-up at DFW, there certainly is the land and capacity, but who would fund any terminal construction??
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:05 am

**There IS a Terminal D being built as we speak. This will be the new International facility for all airlines serving DFW, and is due to be completed in 2005, IIRC. Maybe some of the locals can confirm this. You can find pics and videos at the same dfwairport.com website.

When DFW was originally planned, there were TEN semi-circular terminals that could be built, depending on demand.

If an LCC wanted to set-up at DFW, there certainly is the land and capacity, but who would fund any terminal construction??**

Actually I have a book Major Airports of the World by Roy Allen that was written sometime in the late 70s early 80s that said the DFW master plan called for as much as 13 semi circular terminals and 11 runways. DFW I think is the second largest airport in terms of land owned in the USA.
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:28 am


As part of the DFW master plan, there is already room for Terminal F to be built just south of International Terminal D. The new APM (people mover opening in 2005) includes a semi-circle path around the non-existent Terminal F.

The scenerio of ten semi-circle terminals is true. If you remember back to the early days of the airport, Braniff operated out of Terminal 2W. Since that is now Terminal B, and the northern-most West terminal, that means that planners expected another terminal (1W). Also, I have seen drawing for a 5E and 5W south of the what is now Delta's E and Future Terminal F. Also, prior to 9/11, they were going full force on trying to secure an 8th runway. It's still in the master plan, but no timetable.
 
UAL747
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:20 am

As a local, I can tell you there is PLENTY of room for many new terminals to be build. DFW is huge landwise. You could probably add 10 new terminals that stretched along the middle parkway.

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
AA737-823
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:35 am

Something that no one has yet mentioned...
Yes, they ARE building terminal D as we speak. BUT- they were also building terminal F (well, they had not yet started, but funds were being shuffled) until 9-11, and then that plan was abandoned very quickly. It was to be a domestic expansion terminal, with less flare and style than our new int'l terminal will (supposedly) have. But when the airlines cried bankruptcy judge, the DFW board pulled the plug on terminal F. Which is a good thing- that last thing I want is for my home airport to be in the bankruptcy line right behind United!!
Also, American adopted a rolling-hub strategy, and they no longer even need more gates. They have even consolidated at DFW, sending all the Eagle ops to their newly built terminal B expansion.
I hope that some day demand will increase (and profits too) and the airlines will need a bigger DFW. But, only time will tell.

Personally, I can't wait for the new APM- it should be great. The old one is definitely part of the DFW experience, so if you travel through DFW any time soon, even if you don't have a connection, RIDE IT as it's horrible and amusing to be on, and it will be gone soon. Very high tech in the seventies does not necessarily mean useful ten, twenty, or even thirty years later!!!

R
 
UAL747
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:38 am

The current people mover system reminds me of lego cars. That thing is a piece man.

UAL747
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:44 am

Isn't DFW, landwise, larger than JFK, ORD, and LAX combined?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:51 am


Even today (after the rolling hub), AA still uses the Eagle Satellite terminal - mainly for props. The RJs have moved to gates B1-13. The satellite terminal is just north of Terminal A. This, in theory is a small Terminal 1E.
 
AA7573E
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 4:58 am

DFW Airport covers more than 29.8 square miles; real property consists of 18,076 acres (7,318 hectares). The Airport is situated in the cities of Euless, Grapevine, Irving, and Coppell. DFW Airport is the second largest in the United States in terms of land mass and third largest in the world.

DFW has seven runways, including five north-south parallel runways and two diagonal runways:

Runway 17L/35R 8,500 x 150 feet
Runway 17C/35C 11,400 x 150 feet
Runway 17R/35L 13,400 x 200 feet
Runway 18L/36R 11,400 x 200 feet
Runway 18R/36L 11,400 x 150 feet
Runway 13L/31R 9,000 x 200 feet
Runway 13R/31L 9,300 x 150 feet

Four terminals with 137 aircraft boarding gates
See you up front!
 
shaun3000
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 5:50 am

It's bigger than the island of Manhattan.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 2:44 pm

Actually I have a book Major Airports of the World by Roy Allen that was written sometime in the late 70s early 80s that said the DFW master plan called for as much as 13 semi circular terminals and 11 runways.

You are correct. The others who say ten terminals are not. I believe the plan was to have 7 semi circular terminals on the East side of the highway, but only 6 on the west side. I think the reason that there were only supposed to be 6 on the west side is because there would be no terminal across from AA's Terminal 3E (now C). That was where the Airport Marina Hotel (later bought by Hyatt) was built.

LoneStarMike

 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 3:13 pm


I actually got some info from this site. It's says 9 total terminals.

http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch4en/appl4en/ch4a1en.html

Is there a website with old renderings of what the 13 terminals and 11 runways would look like? That would be great!
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Sun Nov 09, 2003 11:57 pm

I don't know of any website with artist's renderings of the original master plan, but here is some more info from pages 128 - 129 of the book From Prarie to Planes by Darwin Payne and Kathy Fitzpatrick.

Note: One of the earlier plans for DFW was to have only one terminal that was 2 miles long.

[Thomas] Sullivan had come to believe that the elongated TAMS terminal reflected the past and present, but not the future. The news that came in September, then, after this summer of ruminations, should not have been a surprise. Sullivan recommended that the TAMS plan -- award winning or not -- specifying a slender, elongated two-mile terminal be replaced with a new plan worked out under [Gyo] Obata's direction in just eight short and frantic weeks. Instead of a single huge terminal, there would be four (with enough space for nine more) separate, de-centralized half-loop terminals. Multiple terminals would eliminate the congestion inherent in a single terminal, and the half-circles would provide enough perimeter for the airplanes to come right up to each gate. The terminals would permit separate and convenient parking areas for each terminal, speed up completion dates by permitting separate contractors for each terminal, and eliminate congestion of aircraft.

Each terminal would have three levels for separate functions -- the ground level for a service road, airline operations,and a transit system; the second level for passenger lounge areas and concessions; and the third top level for departures. All gates would be adequate to handle jumbo-jet aircraft like the Boeing 747. The 252 gates ultimately planned for DFW would equal the capacity of all three New York Airports combined.

Actually, that second paragraph is kind of confusing to me, seeing as how passenger lounges, concessions and departures are all on the same level today.

LoneStarMike

 
deltaffindfw
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:18 am

Yeah. But, doesn't AA have an Admirals Club on the "3rd level" of one of the concourses? I know there is a Crown Room on the upper level of Terminal E - the only thing on an upper level open to passengers in E. Maybe they modified the design layout given the fact that the third level jetways would be too high for smaller jets.

Personally, I think that the separate terminals, separate parking and multiple security entrances per terminal are my most favorite things about DFW. (especially when the APM opens to connect them) No standing in one large security line like a lot of other airports. Are there other airports with multiple security lines in EACH terminal? Some airports might have a separate security entrance for each terminal - but DFW has 3 per terminal!

[Edited 2003-11-09 17:19:44]
 
rthrbeflying86
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:46 am

Okay so DFW has eight runways, each long enough for almost any plane. If this airport needs a ninth, how are they using the first eight? Are the five parallel ones all used at one time? Or do four of the runways lie fallow while the other four do the work? It amazes me how much concrete that airport has available, and yet still needs more.

Although often delay prone, plenty of this country's airports operate with only two runways. While two is definitely a small number, eight just seems like plenty more than adequate to me. If any of you have more information on DFW's runway utilization I would be very interested.
I'd rather be flying.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:19 am

Rthrbeflying86 brings up a good point. With all those runways,does DFW have any significant delays?
I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
 
jsnww81
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:36 am

DFW has actually changed quite a bit from its envisioned layout.

The first plan for the terminal area called for five terminals in the opening phase (instead of the four that opened): 2W for Braniff, 2E for Texas International/Ozark, 3E for American, 4E for Delta, and 4W for Continental/Eastern/Frontier.

This changed when they broke the semicircular terminals into 'sections', each of which would have its own baggage claim and ticketing area. Thus, when DFW opened, it was laid out as follows:

2W: Braniff (Sections A, B, C)
2E: Texas International (Section B) Ozark, Frontier (Section A)
3E: American (Sections A, B) Eastern (Section A)
4E: Continental (Section A) Delta (Section B)

After the Braniff bankruptcy in 1981, 2W became the terminal for 'everyone' else at the airport, and from 1985-1991 everyone was migrated over there. Continental moved to 2E in 1981 when it merged with Texas International. They were the last airline to move to 2W, in 1991.

It's crazy to think how much DFW changed - the next time you walk through Terminal A (formerly 2E), just think, you're walking through what was once Texas International's main gate area!
 
ord
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:46 pm

I remember being at the Air & Space Museum in Washington DC in 1985 and they had a huge model of DFW as it was originally designed. The model was about the size of a large dining room table. It had all the terminals laid out (i'm guessing 13). The model is no longer there.

Also, in the late 70s Braniff was starting to build its second terminal, 3W. That was to be occupied by 1984-85. Of course, the project was halted in 1980 due to their financial problems...I think the only part of the project completed was part of the tarmac (where many Braniff planes were parked after the bankruptcy). Braniff also had plans to build 4W and occupy that by 1988. An Aviation Week magazine article had an overhead scheme of how all three Braniff terminals would look upon completion.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:03 am

I thought that one of the terminal areas was being used as a parking lot. If I am not mistaken, it is on the south end of the terminal complex at DFW. I swear I had seen a picture of a semi circular area with cars parked in it.
 
jsnww81
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:05 am

That's right -- Braniff started work in 1978 on Terminal 3W, which would have been dedicated to BN's then-expanding overseas/international operations (makes it ironic that the new International Terminal D is being built on the same site, eh?)

There's a rendering of the new 3W in Braniff's 1979 annual report. It was going to match the existing terminal architecture, and the first increment would have only included one section (Section C) and a connector bridge to Braniff's gates in 2W.

Also, at one point in the late 1980s, American had plans to build a HUGE new complex called 5W south of the current terminals. It would have had linear piers, like Atlanta Hartsfield, and about 80-90 gates. They would have completely vacated Terminals 2E and 3E, which would have been demolished and replaced with a linear concourse for Delta (back then Delta had almost 300 mainline flights at DFW).

Delta also had plans to build a second satellite gate area on the north side of 4E (now Terminal E), but these were axed once they started to pare down their DFW hub in the mid-1990s.
 
AA7573E
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RE: Can New Terminals Be Built At DFW?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:31 am

Rthrbeflying86

To once again clarify, DFW has seven runways, including five north-south parallel runways and two diagonal runways.

The need for new runways at DFW stems from two issues:



  1. Cargo Operations - As the airport continues its push to expand the size of its lucrative cargo operations, currently ranked number 24 in the world, the need for increased landing capacity has be voiced by the world's cargo carriers. A fully loaded high gross weight 747 or A380 takes up a lot of concrete, and if DFW is going to be able to sustain their business with carriers utilizing those aircraft, providing them with almost dedicated facilities is a good first step to doing so. Don't forget that Alliance Airport and the old Naval Air Station in Ft. Worth both have the potential to provide ample space and cross docking capabilities to domestic and international cargo carriers.

  2. International Traffic - DFW will, over the next decade, make a sustained push to become the leading airport in the US in terms of departures and arrivals to and from Asia. In addition, with the completion of the new international terminal, expect to see more flag carriers from foreign nations popping up at DFW. In order to provide the capacity for such operations, you guessed it, more space to handle the large volume of larger aircraft will be needed. Its really quite simple. According to the DFW website, as of 9/2003 the airport has handled 759,411 operations, which is actually up 1.1% from 2002. As a point of comparison, ORD had over 922,000 operations in 2002 and ATL had over 889,000. There is a clear need for more capacity at DFW, especially in light of the airport's plan to expand and add new flights. This year so far, AMR has increased their schedule to include over 500 daily departures from DFW. Delta continues add RJ service like there is not tomorrow, and Air Tran, ATA and Continental all have plans to expand service out of DFW.


And in terms of delays, DFW is always one of the best airports, as it does not get bad winter weather, it has a lot of ramp space, the lay out of the airport flows well, in terms of traffic. DFW airport did not show up in any of the google searches I did for delayed airports over the past few years. That is it did not show up in the top 10 most delayed airports.


See you up front!