ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:06 am

Now that we all have read about MX ending code share agreement with UA and being kick out of Star Alliance ( http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1254933/ )a lot of things and idea have come around us.

Others said that maybe MX was invited to make part of OneWorld.

Reply 52 was about MX and AM plan to merging and getting into SkyTeam.
*** But we all know MX ordered two weeks ago the A318s..., yeah and also how can we explain the 15 new B737s from AM and 38 options more.. (via lessors not AM) so, some people discard the possibility of MX/AM... and I do also, but it would be a similar example of TAM/RG... but in the long term they could make changes in order to end again with a fleet commonality. Also, interesting/strange things are going around AM.... like Aerolitoral merging with AeroMexico. And maybe in a near future finally we are going to see AeroCaribe merging with Mexicana.

So let's imagine this scenario....
AM/MX (hope I don't forget any airport) routes:
CANADA: YVR, YUL, YYZ.

USA: SFO, LAX, SJO / MROC), Costa Rica">SAN, ATL, PDX, SLC, DEN, TUS, OAK, ONT, SJC, SMF, LAS, PHX, ABQ, IAH, SAT, MIA, JFK, MCO, ORD, DFW, FLL. / *Looks like MX will drop EWR soon. *AM will open BOS in the first q of 2004.

Central and South America: GUa, SJO, SDQ, CCS, BOG, LIM, GRU, SCL, EZE. *MX was studying UIO.. but nothing confirmed yet.

EUROPE: CDG, MAD. *And it looks like MX will enter LHR and FRA....!

MEXICO: ACA, AGU, CPE, CUN, CTM, CZA, CUU, CME, CJS, CEN, CVM, CLQ, CZM, CUL, DGO, GDL, GYM, GUB, HMO, HUX, LAP, BJX, LTO, SJD, LMM, ZLO, MAM, MZT, MID, MXL, MEx, MTT, MTY, MLM, NOG, NLD, OAX, PDS, PXM, PVR, QRO (soon), REX, SLW, SLP, SNQ, TAM, TAP, TPQ, TIJ, TRC, TGZ, UPN, VER, VSA, ZIH, ZCL.

I'm including routes from AeroLitoral, AM, MX and QA.

The fleet would turn like this:

25 Saab340s + a possible order for 15 ERJ135 (Aerolitoral)
10 DC9-30s (QA)
07 DC9-30s (AM)
10 F100 (MX) + to be replaced with 10 A318s
17 MD87s + 3 more expected. (AM)
09 MD82s (AM)
09 MD83s (AM)
10 MD88s (AM)
15 B737-7W (AM)
15 A319s (MX)
27 A320s (MX)
17 B757s (AM/MX)
07 B767s (AM/MX ) AM expecting 3 more.. 2 -300s (February and November of 2004) and 1 -200s (June of 2004). MX expecting 2 more (January and February)
Total: 179 + 15 (EMB) + 3 (MD87) and 5 (B767s) = 202 - 15 (Saab340s) = 187 aircraft in the fleet.

In terms of fleet I think it wouldn't be a problem staying with a mix fleet of Embraers, Airbus and Boeing. In the short term MD80s could get MX paint as the rest of AM fleets. Later MD80s could be replaced with more 320 buses since MX it's flying almost 45 of this type (I know AM got also 45 MD80s..) but MX 320 buses are brand new!

Now, what would it be the best name to stay with?? We have to rembember that MX got 82 years of history... one the oldest airlines in the world..... and MX has a big prescense in the US market... one of the most important markets.

So, what's your opinion??!!!.... Mexico needs a flag carrier???

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
AR385
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:21 am

We can draw some parallels with the Canadian experience. It was a disaster. Air Canada is in Chapter 11 and people complained for years of horrible service and high fares.

But that does not have to be the scenario here.

1. When CP and AC merged LCC carriers were non existent in Canada. Now in Mexico we have powerful ones 6A, Azteca, JR, Magnicharters, Allegro, and at least three of them with powerful networks in the US. That did not exist in Canada

2. I don't believe fleet commonality is an issue. Many airlines have airbus and Boeing fleets and are ok. If it were to be an issue, use the Boeings for long-haul or high density (try to get to MTY from MEX on a Friday afternoon) and the airbus for the other routes. The other thing to do would be simply to return the ones that don't fit your strategic plan and period, you have fleet commonality.

3. The alliance to join would be simply SkyTeam



The only problem I see and this is major, are the unions. Let's se how that is dealt with.

AR385
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:07 am

The alliance to join would be simply SkyTeam

Is it?

The lack of a Mexican carrier would finally give CO a non-redundant purpose in SkyTeam. That, and there could be anticompetitive issues as far as having a combined AM/MX alongside CO in SkyTeam.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ghost77
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:09 am

Ar385,

True, in case of a mergin UNIONS will be a big problem for MX/AM.

Concorde-Boy,

CO can have daily flights to 22 destinations in Mexico, but they serve with very small jets the only problem will be in the big mexican important airports such as GDL, MTY, MEx, CUN.

Well, lets see what MX announce tomorrow Monday!!

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
navega
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:15 am

Mexicana is not pulling out of EWR in fact they are
adding flights starting December and changing to
an evening arrival and morning departure.

Mexicana, being the top carrier between the North America
and Mexico would most certainly enhance any alliance.

I hope it is with American and One World. American had
bid to buy Mexicana and if it were not for 9/11, this
would have most probably taken place.

Regardless, Mexicana is getting ready to expand and
take over as the number 1 carrier in Mexico and in
Latin America.

 
LeoDF
Posts: 349
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:21 pm

Truth is that Mexico should have the number one carrier in all Latin America. Now that many airlines are merging i.e. Tam and Varig and some others are growing quickly like Lan Chile, it's time to think in our future.

Unions should think a bit. No airline, or one big airline. They think they can control everything, well they can't. If you tell them, no job for anyone or jobs for some, the latter will always prevail!

If Mexico ever thinks about an "open skies" agreement I can assure you it's Mexico's doom!

Mexicana has experience. Mexicana has a young fleet. Mexicana has destinations.

Mexicana lacks vision. Mexicana lacks leadership. Mexicana lacks aggressiveness.

If they wanted to, they could be, as stated by NAVEGA, Mexico's number 1 carrier. No questions asked! But they need to keep working on their image and service, as well as their markets.

Rough competition provided by Aviacsa, Azteca, Magnicharters and others only makes matters worse for all Mexican airlines. In the 80's you had 2 choices: Mexicana and Aeromexico. In the 90's you had around 7 choices (Aerocalifornia, Magnicharters, Aviacsa, Aeromar and Allegro). Today, you have all these choices plus Aerolineas Internacionales (now gone), Azteca, Global and the others growing quite quickly.

A lot of pressure in the market, and still growing. Azteca's and Aviacsa's publicity campaigns are giving a lot of battle to Mexicana and Aeromexico. Of course they benefit the costumer, but affects the airlines' economy. Whoever has bad management will not stay in the game!

So, I do believe Mexicana has a lot to give. But still has a lot to learn, and has to concentrate on growth and risk! Risking is the only way they can learn and earn!!!

A. De Leo
Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
 
AA777MIA
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:24 pm

Would not surprise me... After all AA invested millions in Canadian, and where did they end up???
 
ghost77
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 12:50 pm

Navega,

Mexicana is not pulling out of EWR in fact they are adding flights starting December and changing to an evening arrival and morning departure.

I'm glad they are staying at EWR! Afaik, MX serves EWR 4x a week, will they increase it to a daily flight???

You know if the MEx-PTY route will be back with own MX metal??? I know they code share with CM but I wish either MX or AM take this route... I just don't understand how they let CM and LAB take complete control of the route and passengers.

Regardless, Mexicana is getting ready to expand and take over as the number 1 carrier in Mexico and in Latin America.

I hope this to be true! Definetly a Mexican airline should be the number 1 in Latin America.

A De Leo,

I entirely agree with you, Mexicana needs to be more agreesive and risk.... and not only them also AeroMexico and Azteca and Aviacsa.... I once remember reading Pzurita1 ideas and saying why not Aviacsa flying to the south... not South America but why not starting with Central America. It would be nice to see Aviacsa giving hard times to TACA, COPA and LAB.

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
jopavon
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:27 pm

This scenario could be interesting, although a tough one...I'll drop some ideas, but I think we can put the best of both airlines.

Brand: I'll keep MX since it's reputation outside Mexico is outstanding. AM is OK, but MX has been around for long and good...4th oldest...
Fleet: I guess going to Airbus is the right way, MX has done a good job and I suppose since AM 737s are leases, they could exchange them for Airbuses, given the fact that instead of 15 they could include the MDs in the negotiation and get a better deal.
Livery: Although an airbus might look nicely on AM colours, I would stick to MX's or a new combined livery.
Coach Service: Simply, MX (friendlier)
Business Class Short/Medium Haul: MX and AM are both OK, but I'll still offer the fresh orange juice (I hope AM still does it).
Business Class Long Haul: MX might surprise us with the cabin on EZE, but I think both AM & MX could offer a better product than other airlines. To beat long haul service to US airlines, will be easy, and europeans, I guess we can easily offer a better product. Flat beds and TV with interactive games such as SQ & LX are a must. I'll love eating chilaquiles on an Business Long Haul on MX to Europe!!!
FF: Newsletter: AM's, Name: Frecuenta I just like it...I would be very happy to have both accounts combined...many more miles.
Unions: MX relationship is much better than AM.
Management: None, they need to be more aggressive, I agree with LeoDF. Although I don't think it's a lack of vision, I think they are cautious because their finances are weak.
Routes: Once combined, eliminate a couple of international duplicates and increase capacity such as ORD, LAX & MIA. In Mexico, although coordinated, some flights are redundant. They can free planes and add new destinations.
Offices: MX's tower is much nicer (not theirs, but still a nice building on final approach to Mexico City)

I suppose I'm leaving out many ideas...I'll like to read some of yours...
 
rojo
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:39 pm

Mexicana is planning something big for next year. They will announce it on February 2004!
 
Goose
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:03 pm

Ar385 wrote;

When CP and AC merged LCC carriers were non existent in Canada. Now in Mexico we have powerful ones 6A, Azteca, JR, Magnicharters, Allegro, and at least three of them with powerful networks in the US. That did not exist in Canada

WestJet was operating in Canada for four years before the CP-AC merger in 2000, almost entirely in Western markets - YYC, YVR, YWG, YEG, and so on.

But you're right - it was a disaster. AC's eyes were certainly bigger than its stomach.

AA777MIA wrote;

Would not surprise me... After all AA invested millions in Canadian, and where did they end up???

With the short end of the stick. AA wanted to purchase a larger stake in CP, supposedly in the hopes of perhaps using CP's base in YVR as a means to circumvent more congested US bases, like SFO and LAX, for Transpac routes.

However, they were prevented from doing so by caps on foreign ownership in place by the Canadian government.... caps which were instituted with AC cheering them on (they warned the government and were very public about how they didn't like the idea of "foreign carriers running Canadian airlines and affecting Canadian air travel...." - I remember it well).... caps which, now, are under review because AC wants backing from Star partners such as LH.

Unfortunate.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
dellatorre
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:55 pm

Mexicana is getting ready to expand and
take over as the number 1 carrier in Mexico and in
Latin America.

NICE JOKE!!!!!!!!!! THE BEST I'VE HEARD SO FAR!!!!!!
MAYBE THEY`LL START FLYING TO ASIA HUNh???????

Sorry but MX is not even close to become one of the TOP Latin America airlines. MX basically relies on US routes and some Central America short runs.

It's presence in South America is irrelevant!!!
I'll tell you something. # 1 airline in LATIN AMERICA?????? AA LL / LIMG), Italy">ALL the WAY FELLAS!!! I know!! It sucks!!

Anyways,

I would say COPA would be the better player here..
 
myk
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:56 pm

I heard that Mexicana will quit Star Alliance !!!!
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:02 pm

Not quit - get flung out. Not the same thing at all.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
pzurita1
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:54 am

Two fine tunnings:

It is irrelevant the fact that MX is the 4th oldest airline in the world. KLM brand is disappearing though it is the OLDEST airline. More sound arguments should be used if anyone is willing to keep Mexicana instead of Aeromexico if a merger happens (and I am positive it needs to happen with proper antitrust legislation).

Yes, CM might have the best network in Latin America, but is not Latin America largest airline; it is RG. I am sure MX nor AM will never have such an extense network as CM mainly due to geographic reasons. However, AA is not the largest airline by its network, but by the pax it flies. The same happens to RG and could happen with a Mexican airline. MX or AM could untap large markets between Central America, Mexico, Europe, Caribbean, USA and Canada... carrying twice as much pax as it transports now.


Alberto:
I am waiting to see what MX is cooking up. So, March 2004, uh???? OK, will have to wait.

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:04 am

Pzurita:

As a matter of fact you are correct. Mexicana was the largest airline in Latin America in the late 70s in terms of passengers carried. The airline accomplished this by flying a standard fleet of 44 722s.

Dellatore:

My brazilian friend, as the saying goes: don't be so quick to open your mouth. Despite the fact that they have the greenlight to merge, VARIG is not out of the dark woods just yet. It is still practically one step away from shutting down, so lets just say a prayer that it doesn't occur, cause that won't be a joke but a sad day.

Rojo:

Okay Sir, what do you know that we don't. Come on now, spill your guts... What's the important chisme?  Big grin


 Smile LatinPlane
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
Marcus
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:20 am

Why is MX getting the boot from Star?
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
User avatar
mx330
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 2:26 am

Rojo???
Come on man, give us a hint

Mx330
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fly727
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:23 am

In my opinion such merger should not happen and will not occur. Up to now this is the very first rumor I have heard and has no trustful financial reason -yet it is turning out to be a very interesting marketing exercise for all of us-.

The keyword here is COMPETITION. Competition makes the airlines to offer better services, reduce costs and in overall be more efficient. In the other hand, as someone has explained, it would be very attractive to an investor to buy a Monopoly instead of a single player of a highly competitive industry. I hope we -users, workers and tax payers- do not get betrayed by the antimonopoly institutions by letting such a tactical move take place.

Do Mexico really need a flag carrier? Don't you think their airlines have gained a respectable reputation among the industry? Throwing that overboard doesn't seem a smart move.

IMO. NO to the merger (if that, of course, would ever be thought about).

My 2 pesos.
RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
JOSEMEX
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:34 am


Ramon:

I agree with you. Unfortunately, i wouldn't be too surprised to see the government merge both carriers in order to sell them to some fat cat such as Slim, Vazquez or whatever, even if it didn't make sense.

Marcus:

A few days ago it was announced that MX was ending their code-share agreement (including mileage accrual and award redemptiom) with UA. You can read it here:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1254933/
 
rojo
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:38 am

For those of you interested in an interview to Mexicana's Public Relations Director on this issue (spanish only):

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/pls/impreso/noticia.html?id_nota=182819&tabla=notas
 
Mexicana757
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:01 am

I think this merger will not happen. If they did merge they will have a complicated fleet. The management and unions(MX has good relations with its unions and Am doesn't) of both will clash. The management of both airlines are going to fight for control if both were merge. Pilots and flight attendants of both are going to want to get payed the same rate as the airline that gets paid the most. I dont know if pilots at AM and MX who fly the 757 get paid the same rate.

I think Aero California, Aeromar, Allegro, Azteca, and Aviacsa will put up a fight to stop the merger. Or they might not even put a finger on it since both AM and MX are part of the same company.

If Cintra were to merge AM and MX they better get good and aggresive CEO and management. A management that knows how to run a big airline and stop the red from flowing.

Whatever MX is cooking and will have ready for early 2004, I hope it will be good. Rojo tell us what you know *takes out $100 bill*  Laugh out loud I think they should keep MX name if they were to merge  Big thumbs up
 
alvaro
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:24 am

I think we are all making a huge thing out of this. MX is simply ending its codeshare agreement, that´s about it for now and we are already merging both AM and MX, saying Slim already brought it, talking about what their fleet would be like???
Seriously, let´s not jump into conclusions yet and wait for the final news.

Alvaro
En Mexicana cumplimos 85 años de hacerte sentir el placer de volar sin limites
 
LatinPlane
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:51 am

I kind of more of less believe in what Ghost77 told us about that Mexicana will introduce a new corporate image next year.

Hmmm... What do you guys think? Is it time for a new makeover? I like the current corp image, its very Mexican, but in that same matter, it could be a little too ethnic. We've seen what a great professional color scheme makeover can do for an airline's image (i.e. LAN).

 Smile LatinPlane

P.S. Just don't touch the stylized eagle. That's for Mexicana what the blue globe was for Pan Am.


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Marcus
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:26 am

It would be great if they brought back the different tails as the ones they had in the early 90's.

Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
navega
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RE: Mexicans Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:38 am

Alvaro,

Way to go... You make more sense than the rest.

What no one realizes is that by United and Mexicana amicably
ending their code-share, United is in the same boat as Mexicana
and is also not complying with the minimum requirement to
be a part of STAR.

So is United leaving STAR also ???

No one is throwing Mexicana out of STAR, they just agreed with UAL,
not to continue their code-share.
 
pzurita1
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 7:43 am

NAVEGA and Alvaro,

Exactly, the rest is mere speculation.

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
fly727
Posts: 1753
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:56 am

Good we are putting our feet back on earth again.

Being 100% AM I just bought MX to change their paint scheme with an ugly one. I'm thinking about bringing more F-100 and 727-100's that were so good for the airline in the early 70's. My mentor in this enterprise is respectable Frank Lorenzo. Big grin

Being all serious... Whatever the outcome is, I just hope it would be the best for MX.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
cx340
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:57 am

Navega, Alvaro and Pzurita. . .

Finally, some common sense here! I mean, someone said AA already bought MX. With what $$$? And not being able to buy more than 25%? No control? And who is buying the remaining 75%? Please. .

 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:59 am

ROJO,

PLEASEEEEEE SHARE SOME NEWS!!!!!

***

Ok, I just got home and read some kind of 'confidential news'... which also don't say to much about MX nor what will it be MX's future., the only good thing out of this is that MX expects a growth (specially in the Mexico-US market/probably more destinations) and very good news for all of us in the first q of 2004.

UA/MX code share ends this November 15th, but UA and MX will give to all the passengers who have bougth tickets after Nov 15th enought time to change flights and tickets... that's why code share will end on March 31st of 2004.

I think Alvaro it's correct, we have to slow down, get back to earth and wait for MX to give us the big surprises.

As for now...

1. I think CINTRA is planning on merging AeroLitoral with AeroMexico in order to make a stronger airline.

2. Looks like finally AeroCaribe will dissapper and it will be renamed to Mexicana Express... (remember what months ago or a year ago told you about this MX Express project.... looks like it finally will be concluded).

3. By 2005 MX and AM will be sold.

4. I think we have to discard the merge between MX and AM.

5. MX will definetly open more routes to the States.

6. Now that they are getting 767s and MX is ending code share with LH also, will they open several routes to Europe???

7. A new corporate image., maybe......

New possible destinations I could think of:
CANADA:
Will increase frecuencies or upgrade equipment on: YUL, YYZ, YVR.
Possible new destination: MEx-YOW

USA:
As for now the B767 it's allready scheduled to LAX and probably a lot more upgrade equipments in some routes....

New possible destinations:
MEx-MCI
MEx-MSP
MEx-IAD
MEx-STL
MEx-CLE
MEx-HNL

Europe:
MEx-LHR
MEx-CUN-FRA (short stop at CUN because of aircraft restrictions with B767s)
MEx-CUN-MUC (technical stop at CUN also)
MEx-BCN

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
pzurita1
Posts: 1199
Joined: Tue Sep 24, 2002 11:21 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:30 am

Ghost77,

You never cease to amaze me. When you start talking about "cooling off" and "getting back to earth", you start with some news that are not official, and some other which are quite a dream (just kidding!)

 Smile

PZ
Next flight: IAH-DBX-MRU-ANT
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:39 am

LOL Big grin

PZ, - Why? Are you talking about all the new us destinations??? I think those routes could be a big possibility.... why...? I studied all MX current code shares with UA, AC and LH.... and in my opinion those were the routes with more possibilities to be opened in a near future... you want me to email you all those routes???? Just let me know!!!

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
dellatorre
Posts: 864
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RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:31 am

NEXT on the list of defunct airlines????

MX!!!!!!!! Face it! AM it's by far superior!!!!! Besides, kicked out of STAR, their US presence will slow decend!! MEXICO is really bad located in the world.
Too close to LA and DFW! Anything beyond MAD, CDG, and FRA is out on the list!!! Although, I have to admit that being so close to US can have its benefits.. Lots of trafiic between both countries, but again facing the competitive US carriers is a tough challenge!!

REGARDING RG, they are really screwed right now!!! I have no doubts about it! Still, has some key factors on their side!!

+ Terrific presence in Europe!!!! Smiles!!!
+ US routes went down!!!! Only the temporary LAX-JAPAN stands on the eyes!!

+ I´m sorry, but RG is far from bankrupcy!! Lots of things going on! Very odd!

ANYWAYS, MX is really know in the US, CANADA and Central America, my doubts in the last one??? Besides that?????? Europe ?????? Asia??????? S. America?????? Looking a bit ugly here!! On the other hand, AM is much more know outside US-CAN-MX), Mexico">MEX triangle!

FACE the reality, MX fate is to be Mexican # 2 airline, with great presence in the surroundings, but that´s it!!! AM has definetely more space here!!!

Ever thought of MX as a second handed option!!!! AM all the WAY!!!!
 
navega
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 10:58 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:46 am

Delatorre,

Your obviously an AM employee and not making your
airline look good as you make no sense at all in your
allegations.

I suggest you read a bit more before making such outlandished, opinions.

Mexicana is a top airline in North America and carries
29% of pax between North America and Mexico compared
to AM's 18%.

This change is an obvious calculated business decision and
a very good one to say the least. For once I see a Mexican
Airline with balls and taking it's future into it's own hands.

You should be proud as a Mexican. Please read the
news postings carefully as Mexicana has not been thrown
out of STAR. United and Mexicana agreed to an amiacable
separation which also puts into jeapordy it's own permanence in STAR.

Aeromexico people are always bashing Mexicana.

What are you guys so upset at. They are a name brand
in the US and Canada, face it and live with it.

Your company should have changed it's name as people
still associate it with the old Aeromaybe.

Regardless you are both good airlines but most of us
prefer Mexicana for it's image, fleet, colorfullness and
because we identify if with Mexico.

 
fly727
Posts: 1753
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:24 am

Cool you rockets guys !!!! We don't want another A vs B thread here nor one about funny names to call an airline (aerowrecksico, Mexicaca, Mexinaca, etc... you know what I mean). Both are respectable companies. We ALL should live with that.

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
User avatar
mx330
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:21 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 11:42 am

Navega:
Thanks for your words, you are not the only one that dislikes this kind of people always making this kind of comments, I know some others there are always on AM side and criticizing MX.

Why hate AM or MX? They are both representing Mexico each one in a different way, in a different market but doing their best. I think that is one of the main problems in our country... We hate our own people... And therefore we never grow as a country.

Mx330
All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
 
navega
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 10:58 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:33 pm

Yes MX330 I agree. I wish they would see the significance
of what Mexicana is doing and how damn great it is to see
an airline who is much smaller than most STAR carriers
make this move.

It is a brash, unexpected move and one that deserves our
admiration.

Hurray for Mexicana and I know this is going to be a great
move for them.

Can't wait to see what developes in the next weeks.

I have heard that they will expand to Europe and further
into South America.

I have also read that they are negotiating for another
6 B767's from SAS as well as 10 A318's to replace
their Fokker 100's.

Very exciting news for Mexican Aviation don't you think??
 
User avatar
mx330
Posts: 794
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:21 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:03 pm

NAVEGA:

I'm also waiting for the news.
As far asi I know its just 4 767's.
Its not that I dream too much but this whole thing has taken me to think so many different things.
I know it is going to be a great move and weather MX stays or not in StarAlliance I think the airline plans include much more than just an Alliance...

As you said:
"Regardless you are both good airlines but most of us
prefer Mexicana for it's image, fleet, colorfullness and
because we identify if with Mexico."

I do prefer Mexicana, since I was young (even when they sponsored the Chivas!!), I've always preferred it over AM, but I don't disrespect them(AM), I think that they are a great organization and I admire them because they have the biggest fleet in Mexico the only heavies, etc. I recognize all of what they have done and are.

Both airlines put the name of our country well up high and the only thing I want is the best for our aviation.

Regarding the topic.... I don't think MX and AM will Merge... Not at all. My reasons... Quite a list.... To be mentioned later!!!

Mx330
All Canon! EOS 5D mk III, 8mm, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200 f2.8, 100-400L
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 1:21 pm

NAVEGA, MX330,

Let our friend Dellatorre bash MX. We know MX is way over AM (sorry Fly727). Just because AM flies to CDG, MAD, SCL and GRU., does't mean AM is better than MX.

We definitely will see in the coming weeks a lot of good changes in MX. I know that MX already started talks this monday with the F/A's union they'll be working on together and they will modify the labor contract for trasatlantic routes.

And yes, it looks like more B767s are coming next year... don't have an exact figure but I estimate at least 8 B767-300ERs by the end of 2004.

Lets see and wait what MX come up with!!

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
JAVOMD88
Posts: 285
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 3:17 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 3:40 pm

Hi guys!
Well this topic has been around for quite some time, and I don't get where lots of people get lost, when CINTRA said they were to be sold separately! this means no merge! its really simple, no need to say harsh words to one another!

Each company has its own great things! Its important to respect and learn from each other!

Its really amazing to see how you guys would give your lives for a certain company. Is this anger worth wasting? VIVE LA VIDA!

So if MX is going to do whatever you guys say they are going to do, well good for them, I mean ive been flying here for 11 years and have been hearing the same thing about MX, and what has happened? nothing! I think its best for time to tell us the things, not just speculation!

Here in AM we have been told lots of things, but we PILOTS prefer to wait and see before jumping to conclutions! its the same! When things happen then talk about them, not say something totally off your head and kill over it!

Thanks and Good night!
JAVO.
aeromexico.....the only true carrier of mexico
 
jopavon
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:53 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:08 pm

I believe Ghost77 tried to imagine what could happen if? He wrote it when he started the topic...is not a matter of getting back to earth...it was discussing a new scenario.

The question on merging or not is: how can the government get the most out of CINTRA: together o not. What is MX value? What is AM value? Is the value of both combined worth more or not? I don't think so.

Delatorre,
I don't think is appropriate to be so negative or positive to either one of the mexican airlines. We might have preferences, but I consider them to be good and respectful airlines. Both names are well received in the countries were they have been around the most. MX has a name in Central America (where it has been flying for some years to the profitable routes) and to the northern part of South America: CCS & BOG. AM also has its name, not really in South America, but in Europe. AM flies fully packed almost every day from Spain and service is much better than IB.

With a large & populated country plus being a major turistic destination I can say there is market for both AM and MX and they should remain as different carriers. In that way we'll have competition and better fares within Mexico.

Regarding Star, it seems that Air New Zealand might leave Star at the end of the year...so this Thursday meeting will be very interesting dealing both hot topics.
 
jopavon
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 12:53 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:28 pm

Ghost77,
1. I think CINTRA is planning on merging AeroLitoral with AeroMexico in order to make a stronger airline.
2. Looks like finally AeroCaribe will dissapper and it will be renamed to Mexicana Express... (remember what months ago or a year ago told you about this MX Express project.... looks like it finally will be concluded).


If this happens, then CINTRA is once again going in two directions: they merge AeroLitoral with AeroMexico to make a stronger airline, but they don't merge Aerocaribe with Mexicana to do the same. They decide to rebrand it. Why?
 
latinaviation
Posts: 1162
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2003 11:25 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Tue Nov 11, 2003 10:09 pm

According the eNews update from AvNews Latin America & Caribbean, Cintra plans to convert AeroCaribe into a low-cost, low-fare operation. Perhaps all of this consolidation is related to continue losses at Cintra? The newsletter reports Cintra lost USD$6.2 million in 3Q03.
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:06 pm

If this happens, then CINTRA is once again going in two directions: they merge AeroLitoral with AeroMexico to make a stronger airline, but they don't merge Aerocaribe with Mexicana to do the same. They decide to rebrand it. Why?

Jopavon - I also don't understand this weird CINTRA changes... SLI should merge with AM as QA with MX.... as simple as that... in case Aerolitoral merge with AM in my opinion, that wouldll be a step forward. SLI should have EMB's and routes to MEx from small cities around Mexico City in order to feed AM flights out of MEx... (CVJ, TLC, PBC).

LatinAviation - Yeap, CINTRA plans to do those changes with QA, but not only that, apparently QA will be renamed....

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6305
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 11:39 am

Hi everyone. I am new to the website. I am definitely not an expert in the airline industry but I do find the topic fascinating and I want to learn about it. You might find my message a bit annoying since I basically have questions rather than answers, but I appreciate your patience and I hope someone can enlighten me.

I did not give much thought to the news that MX and UA had terminated their code share agreement at first; now, however, I think it has a very profound significance because it can mean many things. Reading your messages has been awesome because I have learnt so much. I do know very little about airlines and the industry in general but here is my take on this.

I remember AA was close to buying MX before 09/11. I do not discard AA has renewed interest (although I am not sure if AA's financial condition allows it to buy an airline right now) but there is something we need to remember. There are foreing investment restrictions for the ownership of airline companies in Mexico and AA would have to partner up with Mexican investors if it wants to buy Mexicana. Someone suggested Mr. Slim might be a suitor... I guess it's possible. Nevertheless (sorry to be pessimistic), now is not the right time to sell MX or CINTRA. The company's net worth and market capitalization are extremely low and if the government waits until the global economy improves, it can extract a higher price (besides, let's be honest, if the government wanted to sell one or the two airlines, everybody would know by now... Fox's team is very incompetent and every single piece of sensitive information always finds a way to get to the press or the opposition).

The government, as main shareholder of CINTRA, has always wanted to merge AM and MX. However, our competition regulator is very independent from the government (which I applaud) and has blocked these plans repeatedly. If the move is a first step to a merger, something really huge must have happened that made the Comisión Federal de Competencia change its mind (I would be more worried about CFC than about unions). For one, I would prefer Mexico to have two strong, separate carriers rather than one (lower fares=consumer surplus, more competition=consumer satisfaction, etc.). Besides, AM and MX have negative bottom lines and you never get anything good from merging two unhealthy companies. And think about it, under the current circumstances, forming a single airline with a half-Boeing, half-Airbus lineup doesn't sound too wise to me (although, again, I am not an expert and I may very well be wrong). Another issue: a combined AM/MX might need to drop a lot of domestic and some international routes (ORD comes to mind).

I do believe too that UA needs MX more than the other way around. oneworld would love to lure MX into its fold because the U.S.-Mex market is very important. This can simply be a reflection that oneworld offered a sweet deal to MX and convinced it to switch alliances (and no merger/sale is in the works). Could it be?

Those are my contributions to the discussion. I do have questions, questions, questions... lots of them. Please skip the rest of the message if you don't care. If you are so kind as to satisfy my curiosity, please read ahead.

What aircraft does MX fly in its EZE route? A Boeing 767? Does MX have Boeing airplanes (specifically 767's)? A friend told me MX had stopped serving the EZE route but I do not think so. Any news on this?

Is there a MX flight to SCL? I am not crazy, I swear I saw in the Mexicana homepage a EZE-SCL-MX), Mexico">MEX route.

Is MX really going to fly to LHR and FRA? Which aircraft will it use? Someone also suggests new MX routes like HNL, CLE, STL, MCI and YOW among others. But the one that I found the most unbelievable was MUC. What gives?

Someone said US could be in talks with MX regarding a code share agreement? I would think that MX would be shooting itself on the foot if it left *A because of that. I mean, why would MX be interested in Charlotte and Philadelphia? Isn't US a subsidiary of UA, by the way?

Someone suggested AM will leave SkyTeam soon too. That was to me one of the most outrageous claims in the discussion. Could someone tell me the rationale behind that?

What is AM waiting to replace its DC-9's? I know it is swimming in red ink, but DC-9's are very inefficient and polluting so replacing them with 737's or Airbuses can translate into lower costs for the future, right?

What do you think of Azteca and AVIACSA. I flew to GDL and back with AVIACSA and the departing flight was a nightmare. The returning flight was exceptionally good, though. Do you think there is room in the long term for a third and maybe a fourth profitable, quality airline in Mexico?

One closing comment, while I was away studying in Chicago, I brought 2 Brazilians, a German and an Austrian to Mexico City via Mexicana for our spring holidays. The on-line purchase experience was really bad (although the fare was fantastic) and my friends were expecting a third-world airline. After we came back to Chicago, they unanimously agreed that their expectations had been exceeded and that they thought MX was a very friendly and world-class airline, and were very happy to know that the 727 that brought us to GDL (we flew via GDL because of the lower fare) was going to be retired from service in a matter of weeks. I hope, like all of you, this is a strategic move that will help MX become a major player in the airline industry, whether or not the separation from *A is a prelude to a sale, merger or change of image. Thank you all and look forward to your messages. cossio@terra.com.mx
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
ghost77
Posts: 4464
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:07 pm

Hi everyone. I am new to the website. I am definitely not an expert in the airline industry but I do find the topic fascinating and I want to learn about it. You might find my message a bit annoying since I basically have questions rather than answers, but I appreciate your patience and I hope someone can enlighten me.

EddieDude - Welcome to the forums! Good to have more and different opinions every day!

Another issue: a combined AM/MX might need to drop a lot of domestic and some international routes (ORD comes to mind).

A combined airline would not drop such important routes as LAX, ORD, etc.. they would just increase frequencies in a day!

What aircraft does MX fly in its EZE route? A Boeing 767? Does MX have Boeing airplanes (specifically 767's)? A friend told me MX had stopped serving the EZE route but I do not think so. Any news on this?

Between Nov 27/30th the first of 2 B767-300ERs will arrive to MEx. in order to be prepared for the inaugural flight on DEC15th!

Is there a MX flight to SCL? I am not crazy, I swear I saw in the Mexicana homepage a EZE-SCL-MX), Mexico">MEX route.

MX code shares with LA.
Is MX really going to fly to LHR and FRA? Which aircraft will it use? Someone also suggests new MX routes like HNL, CLE, STL, MCI and YOW among others. But the one that I found the most unbelievable was MUC. What gives?

What aircraft to LHR, FRA... B767-300ER.
Why I sad MUC? MX has/had (a lot of changes lately)
Code Share with AC and LH.
MX on AC: YYZ-MUC
MX on LH: FRA-MUC
Germany it's a very important market that has to be covered. FRA and MUC could work very well. I know a 3x weekly from MEx could work out very well!

What is AM waiting to replace its DC-9's? Up to know from the 17 Dc9s they only fly 7. October will be the last month of this aircraft.... you have to give some time to the 737 to arrive!

About ZE and 6A. I haven't tried ZE this far unfortunatly.... but lately I have had a lot of experiences with 6A and I think service is improving and for the price you paid you get what you paid.... I think they need more time and they will give more trouble to MX (routes to MTY, CUN) and AM (GDL, TIJ)...

Ricardo Morales - APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6305
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:05 am

Wow, very interesting Ghost77. Thanks. But there is something I don't understand. I read somewhere that MX would also terminate its code share agreements with LH and the other *A partners. Do you know anything about it? It would be really cool if MX would fly its new 767 aircraft to Europe.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
cx340
Posts: 518
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2000 2:59 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:33 am

Welcome to the forums!

To answer another of your questions, US is not a UAL Corp. subsidiary. The US antitrust authorities blocked the intended merger and any possible purchase deal from UAL. At least as far as I know.

On the matter of the replacement, as Ghost says, the 737 are coming, and two of them have already arrived. Here is a photo from our own Ghost 77:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ricardo Morales Aviation Photography of Mexico



Nice, isn't it?
 
LatinPlane
Posts: 2480
Joined: Mon Dec 27, 1999 11:05 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:57 am

EddieDude

Dude, like, welcome to the forum  Smile


 SmileLatinPlane

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
fly727
Posts: 1753
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: Mexicana's Future.... Merging With AeroMexico...?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:58 am

EddieDude.
Welcome to www.plane-freaks-maniacs-aircraftholics.com errrrr airliners.net Big grin

RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!

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