Dash8King
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Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 2:58 pm

Personally I think Yes! So do 93% of the people who voted on the poll Robtv.com has. What good has he done for the company? Apparently the board doesn't think so as they offered him a raise this year. Milton however did turn it down, I have a feeling if he took it the Union would have had his head.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:49 pm

He has destroyed shareholder wealth by running AC into bankruptcy. Common shares are effectively worthless.

He should be fired. He should not be allowed the luxury of resigning on his terms.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
rindt
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 4:41 pm

Pardon my french - but, F*CK yes!

That low-life scumbag must leave now. He hasn't done anything for the company but to line his own pockets. Except maybe, pumping out the Tango, Jetz, Jazz, and ZIP color schemes for us to shoot  Big grin

Let's see what he's done in short - taken an essentially monopolized airline (which by definition would mean endless profits; a cash-cow if you will) and turned it into a dismal failure worth absolutely nothing, essentially. They now own little or none of their aircraft, and continue to lose money left and right. And with their spiraling dive towards terra-firma, they unfortunately took Canadian Airlines with them.

Granted, Canadian Airlines had their own share of problems (mostly due to the poor Wardair buy-out, and the governments' favouritism towards Air Canada at the time), but Milton took the merger in the completely opposite direction by making things extremely miserable for CP employees. All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats. And so on and so forth. Boy do I ever feel sorry for the CP guys at YUL, ouch.
And who could forget, the pilots seniority dispute : CP pilots wanting 1-1 and AC only giving 1 for 3. It seemed as though whatever way there was to lower employee morale, Milton was at the forefront of it all, doing whatever he could to rub salt in the wounds.

And now we fast-forward to today... with an airline losing endless amounts of money everyday, and only NOW does he finally get the brainy-idea to transfer the main "focus" on their international product. Wow. I'm speechless. I think anyone with an IQ above room temperature could've figured that one out.


Milton simply has no business savvy, and has forever lacked a fiscally viable operational plan. And to put the final nail in the coffin, this sick bastard can resign anytime and walk away with a $6 million severance package.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say he should go .

-Rob
What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
boeing764
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:04 pm

Yes, send him far away from Canada!!!!
From Dr. King's America to Nelson Mandela's Africa, the journey of equality moves on.
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:19 pm

Rindt-- Pardon my french - but, F*CK yes!
That low-life scumbag must leave now.
..this sick bastard can resign anytime


Tell us how you really feel, Rob  Big grin


Personally I do think he should go, just not quite yet since so very much is 'up in the air' with the carrier presently. In a more perfect world he probably would have been handed his hat a long time ago now, but oh well, have to put up with him at least a bit longer still.

I don't think it's by any means all his fault, what happened to AC over the last four years or so. And even the internal dynamic between labour and management, sort of bipolar -- the unions being used to sort of a mandarin-run, slightly byzantine and eternal offshoot world of the Canadian Federal Government on one hand (at least the original AC guys anyway, pre-merger), while Bob on the other barging in with his management minions, with sort of "cigar-chomping American "Chainsaw Al"-type bluster and gusto. To a certain extent both 'sides' sort of deserving one another, since their respective perceptions of the company were both probably extreme and both needed confronting in a big way.


However, things got complicated, and the merger happened, and then the economy turned jittery, and then the Sept. 11 catastrophe hit the industry and it seemed like one thing after another. I don't think Bob should have to carry the can for all these misfortunes or even a lot of their ramifications -- it likely would have been a real tough helm to steer, for literally anyone else instead.

However what I do find bad is that he hasn't 'shared the pain' of the company, when it comes to his own already-fat cut of payment. There really ought to be a much closer tying of company performance to what he takes home, than has been the case during the last few unprecedently tumultuous years at AC. Something to make him give more of a damn or something about where the company is going, not maybe strut instead as if everything's hunky-dory, or think "oh I've got so many millions already, I'm such a powerful and successful guy at what I do, aren't I".
 
rindt
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:19 pm

Mark,

"I don't think Bob should have to carry the can for all these misfortunes or even a lot of their ramifications "

Yet his foe over at WestJet Mr CliveBeddoe steered his ship in the right direction, and hasn't had a single unprofitable quarter? I'm sorry, but Milton is the ONLY one to blame, and no one else. It's high-time he admitted that, instead of constantly aluding the travelling public that everything was "a-ok".

The simple solution would be to float the MayFlower up the St. Lawrence River, and then ship that fool back to Boston, where he originally came from. Since he's an American, he doesn't feel accountable for the mess he's made. If he were running a US-based carrier, the competition is so much more fierce, he'd be forced to keep his balls in line. And some would argue that he's accountable only to his share-holders, but that arguement holds no water since it's blatently obvious he's done nothing but lose their money.

But now the questions remains... who do you replace him with? We need a Canadian who's entrenched in the aviation industry in Canada, and not another foreigner thinking they've got all the solutions.

-Rob
What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
lymanm
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:37 pm

Yes, but only because it would do wonders for management-employee relations. The CAW, CUPE and notably the ACPA would love to tar & feather the guy.

Otherwise, I feel he has been given a bad shake. Besides his obviously dismal financial record since 2001 (which is largely independent of his actions as CEO), he did save AC from a hostile takeover from Onex/CP in 2000, introduce industry leading Tango (which has been used in the US as the successful Song and soon to be launched, innovative UA Ted) and successfully negotiated a B-scale into AC employees, code named Zip. Most importantly, this Zip payscale will grow and is what will allow AC to survive and thrive in the Li era, undoubtably with Milton at the helm.
buhh bye
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:18 pm

"Milton took the merger in the completely opposite direction by making things extremely miserable for CP employees. All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats."

And you tell ME this man is an effective CEO? Bull F***KING Shit. The way he and his scum encrusted crown corporation minded cronies treated the ex-CP employees was, and is, deplorable. Milton did nothing to discourage the ill feelings the AC and CP camps harboured towards each other. In fact, this pigheaded narcisstic moneyminded asshole encouraged the unhealthy rivalry
and battles. One airline? One team of merged employees? Give me a break.

"Milton simply has no business savvy, and has forever lacked a fiscally viable operational plan.

Thank you.

"And to put the final nail in the coffin, this sick bastard can resign anytime and walk away with a $6 million severance package."

Sickening, truly sickening.

I ask this, is there not a competent Canadian to be found to run this ship?

 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:26 pm

I ask this, is there not a competent Canadian to be found to run this ship?

Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period.

Milton was just another millionaire's son who was well-connected and introduced to Hollis Harris at early age. Connections, paternalism and nepotism. Had Milton been born into a poor Southern US family with the same intelligence, he might be a mechanic or warehouse worker now. Unfortunately for thousands of AC shareholders....he was born into wealth.



I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Wed Nov 12, 2003 11:46 pm

My question is:

How does Victor Li REALLY feel about Management. Maybe Mr Li is waiting until the introduction of his stake before making his move. Call me naive (I am naive) but Mr Li sounds like a powerful buisnessman, ready to prove daddy that he too can swing companies around from rock bottom to money-making powerhouse. He's obviously keeping a lot of his plans for AC to himself right now. I would love to take a peek.

Like my grandmother used to say: "never underestimate a powerful asian buisnessman trying to prove something to his even more powerful father." All of his complimenting of AC mgmnt... bah... PR humbug I know...

I think Milton should resign for the same reason as Lymanm pointed out. If that would ever happen, airport bars would be filled with AC employees that same evening I assure you. I would help unification. Big thing. The editorial by one AC employee in today's Toronto Star newspaper sums it up very nicely.

[Edited 2003-11-12 15:50:56]
 
AF-A319
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:03 am

The fact that he is staying and receiving 1% of the "New Air Canada" stocks is

1- Highly unethical
2- Inefficient - how can he keep any leadership after having made millions when almost 99% of the workforce has suffered from his mistakes!

just my 0.21 cents!
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:47 am

"Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period."

Can't blame a Canadian fella for askin, can ya? And so true, it is irrelevant, in light of good, positive and progressive leadership.

And yes, perhaps we should wait and see exaxtly what Mr. Li has in store for AC. Mind you, this initial move on his part ie bonuses and stock options for the "super elite" of AC does not get things off to a roaring start. I'm afraid Mr. Li, savvy as he may or may not be, is in for a few unpleasant surprises with the justifiably pissed off bargaining divisions.

 
planemaker
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:54 am

Cessnapimp:

Some news reports mention that Li is looking at the AC "project" as a short term, low risk gamble - get out (unload) in 3-4 years, or as soon as he makes a good return on his money. As Canada's "only" international carrier the short term upside potential is worth the risk. Evidently, Li (his father?) did an in-and-out with Orange PLC and made $15 billion. So, I don't think that with such a short term investment horizon that Li wants to change the management team.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:59 am

I have a very naive question to ask. Can someone explain to me why it was/is that the Milton and his super elites had any say at all in who was to be the decided upon investor in AC? Correct me here please, and please, enlighten me, but seeing as how AC is itself restructuring under the supervision of the courts, would it not be the courts who would play a major role in determining who would be brought on-board? It's just that I find it more than a little odd (and twisted) that the CEO and board who steered a near-monopoly carrier into bankruptcy through their own incompetence (and please, don't mention Sept 11 or SARS factors here; WJ, for example, made it through both unfortunate incidents with flying colours) would be qualified to ascertain who the investor would be.

Signed,
Naive in YYZ
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 1:04 am

Canadi>nBoy-- Mind you, this initial move on his part ie bonuses and stock options for the "super elite" of AC does not get things off to a roaring start.

I agree, seems like it's a first step in an entirely wrong direction  Sad


And about Yyz717's words

Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period,

he's at least six months too late with that. Shareholders.. what shareholders. For the past half a year, just a few daytraders playing around (and there better not have been "real" shareholders, still holding on or whatever among 'em). The "Canadian" part, while technically irrelevant, I think factors in nonetheless as most of the Canadian populace (particularly those over about age 35 or so) still see Air Canada largely in its old 'national flag carrier' mantle, and are unlikely to totally give that sentiment up anytime soon either.

 
planemaker
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:07 am


Milton really has an upside for sticking around...

"If the valuations for Air Canada even approach what the U.S. and European carriers are trading at, these guys are going to be worth between $75-million and $100-million," he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031111.wxrairceq1111/BNStory/Business/


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Dash8King
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:14 am

. Had Milton been born into a poor Southern US family with the same intelligence, he might be a mechanic or warehouse worker now.

LMAO!!! AC's stock however as fallen quite a bit today to .86.
 
fallingeese
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:22 am

I'd love to see someone who wants him to say. Anywhere you look, it seems that he steered the carrier into the ground.

And now, to see that Li is offering him, and his top executive a 1% share, thought to be worth $20 million, that is some nice backing to have.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:50 am

In my opinion, one cannot really blame or question the aggressive attitudes of the AC bargaining divisions. After all, with such a poor (attitude and performance, certainly not in a fiscal sense!), selfish and egocentric
example of upper management, why would anyone expect the employees not to have their hackles raised?
 
Goose
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:54 am

All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats. And so on and so forth. Boy do I ever feel sorry for the CP guys at YUL, ouch.

Not all of this is the fault of the senior management... it filters down right to the front-liners and shop stewards of AC's unions as well, some of whom had a ravenous hatred of all things Canadi>n. I recall quite well the "Our Pride, Our Success" stickers which were printed by and proliferated by AC's front-liners around CP's areas in some of the bases immediately after the merger.... to basically rub it in to Canadian Airlines' employees that AC had "won."

Funny how you don't see those stickers anywhere, anymore.....

I don't honestly think that all the animosity between AC and ex-CP folks can be blamed solely on Milton. It has a lot to do with the difference in corporate culture in AC.... corporate culture which was there a long while before Milton started at the helm of the company. But Milton certainly didn't help in trying to bridge the gap or smooth relations over, or welcome the newly-adopted CP employees into the AC fold....

The schism between employees definately doesn't help that company as it tries to get its act together for the future.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 4:49 am

"I recall quite well the "Our Pride, Our Success" stickers which were printed by and proliferated by AC's front-liners around CP's areas in some of the bases immediately after the merger.... to basically rub it in to Canadian Airlines' employees that AC had "won."

True. So true. Also, Goose, you are right in stating that the animosity between the AC and CP groups cannot be entirely blamed on "The Thing" and his Super Elites in the boardroom.

"CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats".

Now, if anything BURNS me up, it's this particular matter. This was absolutely and totally inexusable for "The Thing" to allow this horrible mistreatment of the Canadi>ners to happen. Their morale and self-respect was at an all time low (following years of the rollercoaster ride that was Canadi>n). Was this ANY WAY for Air Canada to welcome the Proud Wingers to its fold? Was this ANY WAY for the CP group to feel as though they were part of one team?
Yes, yes, the employees themselves at AC, along with management, have their share of blame in this, but this incident in and of itself, to me, was a clear and concise indication of the type of man, the type of CEO, the type of "leader" "The Thing" was, and is.
 
Dash8King
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:33 am

I wasn't really into Airlines at the time of the merger, but I remember being able to travel on AC standby through First Air, and your telling me that CDN employees couldn't? Am I missing something?
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:52 am

Dash8King, what happened was that when Air Canada officially "absorbed" Canadi>n (hmmm, good word for it), to "celebrate", AC HQ announced that all
AC employees could ride "space available" on CP flights. Unfortunately, this same privilege was denied to CP employees, to an extent. CP employees COULD board the CP flights on space availabe status, however, they would be below any Air Canada employee in terms of seniority or stand-by boarding priority. Nice, eh? Many AC employees took this offer up with glee, and bumped many a CPer off the Canadi>n flights. The AC employees (many, not all, to be fair) rubbed this salt in the CP wound with pleasure, and treated the CP cabin crews on-board with rudeness and disdain. To add fuel to the fire, "The Thing" which is known as Milton, somehow, in some way neglected to allow the CP personnel the same privilege of boarding any AC flight on a stand-by/space available basis. Inshort, the CP personnel were treated like literal and figurative garbage.

As I stated earlier, this was a wonderful, mature, professional and joyous manner in which to welcome the Canadi>n Airlines International personnel to
the Maple Leaf fold.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:11 am

AC employees could ride "space available" on CP flights. Unfortunately, this same privilege was denied to CP employees, to an extent. CP employees COULD board the CP flights on space availabe status, however, they would be below any Air Canada employee in terms of seniority or stand-by boarding priority. Nice, eh?

Wow. That's nasty. Dirty pool. Not the way to integrate 2 companies.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:18 am

Dirty pool, indeed. Unforgiveable. And people wonder WHY the ex-CP
personnel display such anger and resentment towards Milton and AC?
Of course, the animosity stems from both sides, and the Canadi>ners themselves openly despised anything and all things Air Canada. It was, and is, a long standing feud. But THIS?

 
donder10
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:23 am

Sounds a bit like the Swissair/Crossair scenario!

Does Li seriously view the current management team as the only ones who could successfully implement a turn-around plan?!?
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:31 am

In all fairness, I must add this. I have flown Air Canada many times over the past 6 years, and have come into contact with many wonderful ground staff,
flight attendants and flight deck crew. Not every Air Canada employee is the
bloody jackal that Milton is. And many of these AC employees expressed to me that they were willing and eager to mend fences with the CP personnel.

People have said that a number of the CP personnel are no angels themselves. This is true. However, when faced with the welcome they received (and continuous treatment) from many AC people, I cannot blame them in the least for beating the war drums.

This feud is a bitter one. Very bitter. And it's really a bloody waste for all concerned. The focus now should be creating a positive and healthy entity.
BOTH sides have to realize that their respective camps are no more. They are under one banner now. It's just too bad that the AC management team
did not display any ethics or healthy corporate values back in 1999 and beyond.
 
CRJ 900
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RE:Milton

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:33 am

Thanks all for saying what I couldn't have said better myself....as a former CP employee I find it hard to believe that with the current bumbling management that AC didn't hit hard times earlier...but I guess when you have the government behind you, you can do anything. I'm freakin embarrassed to tell people who I fly for. This company had the potential to be amazing at the time of merger and all Milton and the cronies have done is try to divide the workforce and play us off against each other. I don't care what anyone says, flying around on a brand new Airbus with crummy service means nothing. Would rather fly a clapped out old F28 and have staff that cares and treats passengers the way they expect to be treated. Rest in peace CP we miss you.
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:39 am

"Does Li seriously view the current management team as the only ones who could successfully implement a turn-around plan?!?"

This truly, truly boggles my mind. Some here have mentioned that perhaps Li is in this for the short-haul. Who knows. But one has to wonder if Li and his team THOROUGHLY investigated all the areas and departments of AC before reaching their decision to go ahead with their bid. One has to wonder if Li was/is even remotely interested in the current management-labour relationship, or if he even gave any thought or attention to the mistreatment of the CP personnel, much of it (not all) masterminded by Milton himself re his decision in regards to the intitial AC employee CP pass-ride system.

Aside from all of this, one has to wonder if Li even seriously questioned some of the truly assinine decisions made by Milton and the board re AC operations.

Oh, God, WHERE are the Max Wards!!??
 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:44 am

Aside from all of this, one has to wonder if Li even seriously questioned some of the truly assinine decisions made by Milton and the board re AC operations.

Maybe he plans to clean house in the AC mgmt ranks. One can only hope.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:52 am

"Would rather fly a clapped out old F28 and have staff that cares and treats passengers the way they expect to be treated. Rest in peace CP we miss you."

Indeed. As I have said before - many times  Smile/happy/getting dizzy , "Proud Wings" was more than a marketing slogan. Much more. It summed up the pride and professionalism of the men and women who were proud indeed to work for a great, great Canadian carrier. There was plenty of turbulence along the way for Canadi>n, but its employees handled the bumps and the sharp turns with grace and dignity, and yes, pride. I may be a little biased here, but I don't care!
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:58 am

"Maybe he plans to clean house in the AC mgmt ranks. One can only hope."

Agreed. I feel the only way ALL Air Canada employees can go forward is if
Milton is removed and thrown onto the tarmac, bag and baggage. The trouble is, if he is indeed bumped, his bags will be a little heavier, what with all of that promised cash. Think Li will make him pay for excess weight (in both his bags and his head?).
 
chock head
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 8:53 am

Someone asked in this thread what role Milton would have had in deciding who the investor would be. I would speculate that he had quite a big role and the stock deal is his reward. I am sure there were a lot of back room dealings to make sure the "right" investor got to finance AC.
 
Cessnapimp
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:30 am

According to the Globe and Mail article listed above

Air Canada spokeswoman Priscille Leblanc said Mr. Milton abstained from the board of directors' vote that selected Mr. Li's offer. Calin is not on the board.

After the conditional offering of 650 million, what's another 4 mil to cleanup house?

Priceless if you ask me. Might sound incredible to dish out so much moulah just to let a few guys out, but man, what he would gain in employee morale. He would be revered by the work force and it would be an awesome start.
 
planemaker
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:32 am

Milton was introduced to Li in Hong Kong last year by AC Director Ms. Kwok (she recently resigned to avoid conflict of interest appearances.) Kwok's husband was Li's architect, and for a while a very senior exec at Concord Pacific, the huge development on the Expo '86 lands in Vancouver (among other things.) Ms. Kwok is also on the Board of Directors of Husky, another company controlled by the Li family.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
canuckpaxguy
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:36 am


Who said anything about a $6 million severance? He's already going to get $20M worth of shares (well, at yesterday's price anyway).

Any suggestions for a replacement?

G
 
Sydscott
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:38 am


They could always get Kenneth Lay to run Air Canada.......at least it would be instantly profitable.

I mean seriously how much more capital is he going to waste and restructuring is he going to do until people finally realise that he's the problem and giving him the sack.
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:35 am

Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

hell yeah!


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
CanadaEH
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:52 am

Milton should be removed from his position, not resign.

But.. Without Milton at the helm, would Air Canada emerge from bankruptcy protection? No Milton means no funding from GECAS ($1.2 billion?). As mentioned above, I bet some deals were made with the "understanding" that Milton would be CEO, and ONLY Milton. How many more of these backdoor deals would fall through without Milton in charge? All these funding agreements from various organizations and companies are all interconnected to have Milton running Air Canada IMO.

Realistically, the Air Canada employees only care about one thing right now - emerging from bankruptcy protection. If they do, and they suceed - they won't care who's in charge. If they don't, it WILL be Robert Miltons fault.
EH.
 
Goose
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:28 pm

Oh, God, WHERE are the Max Wards!!??

I would surmise that at least one of them works at WestJet  Big grin

... and the rest... well, Max hit some hard times and got kicked pretty hard by the Feds and Air Canada and grudgingly had to fold his airline. His example doubtless warned off at least one entrepreneur with similar aspirations....
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
Guest

RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:12 pm

Maxwell Ward, above and beyond all of his other attributes, was a gentleman.
He was also exceedingly empathetic towards his employee group. He possessed integrity, intelligence, class and compassion, and he knew how to effectively reach out and communicate HONESTLY with his staff. He also had the best interests of his passengers in mind. To him, the passenger was much more than a revenue generating client, and Max ensured that his passengers would always travel in style. He always had time to lend an ear, and his door was always open. There were no phony airs or any pretension with Max; he was forthright and told it like it was. True, as has been pointed out on several occasions, his decision in the mid to late 80's to steer Wardair towards scheduled waters was, in hindsight, not in the best interest of WD, but given his years of battles with Ottawa (Wardair was forever being given the worst possible slot times and gates across Canada) as was pointed out above, perhaps that was the catalyst that set his mind in motion to evolve Wardair into something more.

If there is anyone who is my personal Canadian aviation hero, it is without a doubt this man.

Thanks for the memories, Max. We miss your style.
 
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:17 pm

"After the conditional offering of 650 million, what's another 4 mil to cleanup house? Priceless if you ask me. Might sound incredible to dish out so much moulah just to let a few guys out, but man, what he would gain in employee morale. He would be revered by the work force and it would be an awesome start."

Sad to say, but the above does have a ring of credibility to it. Let's just hope that Li and the possible future board members of Air Canada can inject some
strong ethics and values into the future management-employee relationship, if in fact Miltie is given the golden handshake. Let's also hope that Li and his board can recognize the Air Canada team as one entity, and treat ALL of the employees equally and in a non-biased manner.
 
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:20 pm

"Realistically, the Air Canada employees only care about one thing right now - emerging from bankruptcy protection. If they do, and they suceed - they won't care who's in charge."

True, emerging from bankruptcy is on everyones mind at AC. But with all due respect, I strongly beg to differ on the matter of the employees not caring who is running the ship.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:35 pm

Let's not get too nostalgic about Max Ward. Yes, we all look fondly back at WD, but it was only ever a marginally profitable charter airline. Max's strategy to turn WD into a sked carrier was a dismal failure. When CP bought WD in 1989, WD was close to liquidation.

Max Ward was really just another failed airline executive.

The TRUE airline heros in Cda are the ones who've managed to lead profitable airlines. Westjet and Air Transat are to date really the only success stories in Cda.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:27 am

"Max Ward was JUST another failed airline executive".

You know, I am truly sorry that many people see others and form rigid opinions of them based on fiscal factors alone. I find that quite disturbing.

The true heroes, to me, and in my opinion, are the ones who encompass compassion and display a high degree of integrity; those who effectively convey a sense of belonging, value and worth to those around them, both in their business and personal lives. A "hero" is not measured by dollars and cents, but by their mind, heart and consciouness. I realize that for those of you who think only along certain lines, this is an alien theory/opinion to uphold. Yes, Max and WD failed to survive, for all the reasons I and others have stated here. But I am speaking about the man himself, what he believed in and what he represented, not his corporate track record. He started off with a dream, and his initiative and determination allowed him to realize this dream on a grand scale. If he failed, so be it, but who are we to judge and condemn a man because of failure? What does that school of thought mean in terms of the rest of us who have dreams; if we fail, we're nothing? The important thing to remember about Max Ward and others like them is that he had the courage and belief in himself to realize his dream, no matter what the odds. THAT, to me, is a hero.

Sorry to take this topic away from Milton, but I needed to breathe clean, fresh air here for a moment.



 
Goose
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:02 am

WestJet and Air Transat exist and flourish today, because Max Ward fought Ottawa tooth and nail for deregulation and the ability to grow his airline without meddling from Ottawa, throughout the 70s and 80s.

And, despite the numerous obstacles placed in his way by the DOT (most often to protect Air Canada), Max managed to build an airline with a reputation for service that was second to none.
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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yyz717
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:36 am

But I am speaking about the man himself, what he believed in and what he represented, not his corporate track record.

I see your point, but when you start, build and head up a corporation employing thousands of Canadians, you have a moral (as well as financial) responsibility to make the right strategic decision for all stakeholders....this includes shareholders, suppliers, customers, and employees.

How many WD employees lost their houses because of Max Ward's strategic errors? How many Cdn's lost investment income in WD stock because of Max Ward's strategic errors?

Waxing poetic about the esoteric side of Max Ward's legacy is to ignore the the thousands of Cdns who were seriously hurt by Max Ward. Very few people do well when an airline fails.....many more are seriously hurt financially & emotionally. This was MW's primary legacy.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Goose
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:09 am

http://exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aviators/ward.cfm

You're missing a point - that Max Ward sold his beloved airline to PWA's holding company (which later became Canadian Airlines).... and many folks kept their jobs going at the new merged entity.

Max won't comment on suppositions that he sold the airline so that he wouldn't put his employees out of work..... doubtless there was a lot of wrangling going on about the issue - Ward was (in terms of fleet and routes) small potatoes to PWA, and was laden with a heavy debt and a lack of a real computerized check-in system. Max Ward, at that point in time, had a lot of pull with the likes of Rhys Eyton (another great Canadian airline CEO) who were running the formation of Canadian Airlines....

And even years after Wardair's demise, many of his employees still gather whenever he comes down to YYC, just to say hello. He instills a lot of loyalty from former employees who have not worked for him in over a decade - people that you state he "ruined."
"Talk to me, Goose..."
 
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:40 am

Hmmm, you and I are obviously speaking out from polar opposite ends of the spectrum re Max Ward and his legacy, and I would be guilty of negligence and ignorance if I failed to concur with what you stated, which is, of course, unfortunately, so true. I agree 100% that Max made a gross error (understatement) in steering WD into the scheduled market. And yes, he had a major responsibility towards his employees. No debate there. I freely admit that it is rather difficult for me to separate my personal opinion and warm regard for this man from his shortcomings. In short, the point you raise are on the money, HOWEVER.........LOL.....he still is numero uno in my books, for many reasons. You may find that totally illogical, Mr. Spock  Smile/happy/getting dizzy but what can I say?
 
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RE: Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:48 am

Goose, you beat me to it, as your train of thought just entered my mind. It's true, Max bent over backwards to ensure with PWA that as many WD jobs would be saved as possible. Unfortunately, my sisters position in market planning was not saved with CP.

I WILL comment on the rumour re Max saving his employees jobs through PWA, as I know for a fact that was his MAIN goal in the sale. I also know for a fact that, after the sale, Mr. Ward was seen in tears in the YYZ head office
(which caused many employees to break down themselves at watching him).
he personally made the rounds of the office and hangar fcaility, and shook the hands of many employees, spoke with many at length and apologized, APOLOGIZED for the fact that Wardair did not make it. The man may have made some business errors, but the man had a HEART, which endeared him to the WD employees, who to this day STILL hold this man in high regard.

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