Delta777Jet
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Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:54 am

Why is there no daylight service from New York to Frankfurt, which is a very busy route (DL, CO, LH flying there several times a day) as there is between NYC and both PAR and LON ??????
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prosa
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 1:57 am

JFK/EWR - FRA probably is oriented more toward business travelers than toward vacationers. It may be that business travelers don't see much of a benefit from daylight vs. overnight flights.
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Leskova
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:09 am

No market is what I'd say - besides, with a flying time of 7 1/2 to 8 hours plus a time difference of 6 hours, you'd have to get the flight out of NYC at 8am latest, so that you do not run into trouble with FRA's curfew...
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sebwhite
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:17 am

There are no longer daylight flights to CDG.

BOS (AA & BA), IAD (BA & UA), ORD (AA), and YYZ (AC) are the only other airports besides EWR (VS & BA) and JFK (BA & AA) to see daylight flights to Europe, and these are all to LHR.
 
ORD747CLE
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:34 am

United also has a ORD-CDG route. I think they even do out of SFO or LAX.
 
Leskova
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:36 am

Ord747cle, you are absolutely right - UA has flights from SFO and ORD to CDG, just that none of these flights are DAYLIGHT flights - and that's what this thread is about...

Well, actually, it's about daylight flights between NYC and Germany, but - still - daylight is more or less the operative word here...

[Edited 2003-11-14 18:37:33]
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JGPH1A
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:39 am

I much prefer daylight eastbound transatlantic, you're not frantically trying to squeeze some sleep in between the time they finally clear your meal tray away and the time they slam on the cabin lights full blast and drop a frozen croissant on your table (I travel Economy, can't you tell ?). Daylight, you have a shorter day, rather than a shorter night, which is much easier on the jetlag.
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Leskova
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:41 am

Hmm, JGPH1A, that sounds plausible - maybe I should try one next time... I usually don't have any trouble the first day, but the second is usually quite a bitch...
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airblue
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:41 am

I don't think UA has a daylight ORD-CDG or to any other destination in Europe from there, cause two days ago due to the strong wind I landed late in ORD and I missed last flight to FRA. At the customers service they told me there weren't any UA daylight flights to Europe for the day after, so I was forced to wait the following afternoon to leave ORD.

 
JGPH1A
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:46 am

Leskova, believe me it works - I have no trouble going westbound with jetlag, but eastbound is a killer, especially BOS-LHR, which is can be as quick as 5hrs 30 (I think one flight was only 5:15, but I could be wrong) - so no time to sleep at all, plus you always arrive at LHR at some foul hour of the morning. Daylight is so much better, you get in around 2000/2100, time to have dinner, and go to bed reasonably normally. It means having to get up pretty early to check in, but its worth it. The only problem is if you need to connect at LHR - the flight gets in too late to connect to anything.
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Leskova
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:11 am

The connection part is actually the main thing that kept me from trying them so far... try finding a connection to HAJ (my "hometown airport") at that time... it's only served by BA from LGW, although BD flies there from LHR... BD's latest flight leaves at 17:40 - so no chance there... but even FRA is impossible, the latest going out is at 20:15, LH leaves at 20:00... so, in my case, I'll always need a hotel...

5 1/2 hours? That's really short - I for one complained (not really seriously, though  Wink/being sarcastic) to the crew of the LH A340-300 that brought me from IAD to FRA in under 7 hours... after all, I wanted to get at least a few hours of sleep on that flight!  Wink/being sarcastic
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OH-LGA
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:24 am

Germany is too far away from the East Coast to effectively run a daylight flight.

If you had a flight from IAD leave at around the same time as the daylight flight to LHR (9am) because of time zone changes (flight time is similar), you wouldn't arrive into FRA until 1045pm. Now, I didn't know about a curfew but I'm sure this would be skirting it pretty close.

And FRA isn't a huge destination, either. It's mostly a business city, unlike Munich or Berlin. Everyone that flies into FRA usually does so to connect to another city, and by then all of the onward connections are long gone (except maybe a few last flights to the Far East).

Kai
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sebwhite
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:51 am

BOS-FRA would be totally doable for a daytime service. Takeoff to touchdown time is just about 6 1/2 hrs eastbound, despite what timetables may same. (BOS-LHR is 5 1/2). Right now, BA leaves at 8 and gets to LHR around 730. Even adding one hour extra to get the 400 further miles to FRA, plus time change, that's a 930 PM arrival into FRA.

SFO practically saw its own daylight flight today as BA 286 left around 1 AM Pacific, scheduled arrival into LHR at 730 PM tonight!
 
cedarjet
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Sat Nov 15, 2003 4:29 am

JGPH1A, you're right, short eastbound flights overnight from the right coast of the US to the UK / NW Europe are killers. JFK to LHR is worse for jetlag than SYD-LHR. I've never tried an eastbound daylight flight.

What I wanted to say was, I've done Boston to Gatwick on a 747-100 in four hours 55 and indeed I've done Newark to Heathrow on a 747-400 in five hours 15. So you're right about the short flight times.

PS Concorde was allegedly a jet-lag free zone. I disagree, I flew BA001 nine days before the end of SST service and I was still sleepy in the early evenings for a couple of days, crashing out by 10 etc. I think the eastbound daylight Concordes would have been bad for jetlag, despite the reputation to the contrary; check in at 8am, sun just rising, and four hours later you're at baggage claim at Heathrow and it's 6pm already - dinner time.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:10 pm

Cedarjet - 4:55 in a 747 - blimey ! Must have been motoring. I flew Concorde eastbound (on my one and only trip), but it was the BA4 that left around lunchtime and got in around 2100 - it was great, I had no jetlag at all. It was just like a 3 hour lunch. But maybe the BA2 was worse.
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Pe@rson
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:28 pm

All this talk of jetlag is strange. When I flew to ATL, 5 hours behind GMT, I had no problem. When flying to SIN from LHR, 8 hours ahead of GMT, and from CMB to LHR, 6 hours ahead of GMT, I had no jetlag - I was only slightly tired as I would normally be after being up X hours.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:35 pm

Pe@rson - from experience, it seems that travelling East-West is not nearly so bad for jetlag as West-East, regardless of time zones travelled (maybe its just me !). Eastbound transatlantic or SYD/HKG-LHR never did for me nearly so badly as in the opposite direction. I think its the fact that you lose a night.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
steph001
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Re: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:18 pm

I must say I'm feeling much more comfortable with the westbound jetlag. I did some months ago FRA-DFW-SFO and back with AA and I felt much better on the westbound part because I wasn't forced to sleep on the flight. On the eastbound part I had to sleep somehow and didn't manage that. On the arrival in FRA (6:30 am local time) I was really tired and couldn't do anything. I don't know how this feels when you fly business or first (in your company pays that), but if they won't pay and you have to fly economy, they really can't count on you working on the day you arrive. If there would be a daylight flight JFK-FRA I would definitely prefer to fly economy and sleep one night in FRA than flying business and arriving the next day in FRA in the morning.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:37 pm

The time difference would require the airline to depart not later than 8:00am, to arrive at around 9:00pm, local time. Business travellers generally prefer to overnight to Europe, because they would lose a whole day's work travelling to Germany.

Daylight flights are really intended for London, which is 6 hours 30 mins max from JFK or EWR.

TWA briefly attempted a daylight service to Paris in the 1980's with a 747 but it lasted barely six months. It departed at 9:00am and arrived at 9:50pm.

Currently, daylight flights are limited to London/Heathrow and are operated from JFK (AA, BA), EWR (VS), BOS (AA, BA), IAD (UA), and ORD (AA).

ContinentalEWR

 
fraT
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:39 pm

"And FRA isn't a huge destination, either. It's mostly a business city, unlike Munich or Berlin. Everyone that flies into FRA usually does so to connect to another city, and by then all of the onward connections are long gone"

That's not correct. FRA also has a lot of O/D traffic. There are tons of tourists flying into FRA and going on per bus.
 
Benjamin
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:47 pm

A day flight from ORD to LON?? That would have to leave pretty early and would get in pretty late!
 
Leskova
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:08 am

The AA daylight flight between ORD and LHR leaves at 09:10 and arrives at 22:40 - so it doesn't really leave that early, but the arrival is pretty darn late...  Big grin
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petazulu
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:15 am

Air France has a Night flight from CDG to JFK. Its great! Leaves Paris at 7:30pm. The return of that flight from JFK to CDG leaves at about Midnight (so I guess is isn't a daylight eastbound flight), but that westbound night flight is the best! Gives you a whole extra day in France AND you get to sleep twice (on the plane- and after landing) before working the next day. Plus the airport in Paris and New York are FAR less crowded. It's easy to find a taxi, security lines, etc.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:20 am

ContinentalEWR, you can add a BA flight to EWR. They started a daytime flight ex-EWR no too long ago too.
 
sebwhite
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RE: Why No Daylight NYC-Germany

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:24 am

And a BA flight from Dulles.

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