Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:13 am

I know that NW will start SEA-OGG Dec 17th with a DC10. Could this become NW's 330 run later? How bout the SEA-HNL using a 330?

ATA will run SEA-HNL with a 752 or 753 in Feb.

Whats is deal with the possible NW PDX-NRT?

How is the LH PDX-FRA run doing?

Any other SEA or PDX news?

Thanks for all the help!!!
You mad Bro???
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:32 am

Not much happening on the PDX front. NW was suppose to have made a decision by the end of October but they have not. I would guess the longer the decision takes, the less likely they will fly the route. According to the PDX website, they have over $9 million in corporate guarantees the 1st year.

LH appears to be doing OK however they have reduced their flights from daily to 5x per week. The daily flight will be resumed in late March.

Cargolux is now longer flying to PDX ( I am sure LH had something to do with that)

QX appears to be taking over some of AS' flights for the winter.

PDX is on Airtran's, JetBlue's and ATA's radar but probably nothing in the next year
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:37 am

I just checked the PDX website again and they posted a new message today (11/14). In short, it said Northwest's facilities / operation team was at PDX during the last week of October to determine how their operation would work at PDX. They also spent time with local businesses and travel agencies. It would appear from this there is at least a strong interest but they are still reviewing the feasability of such service.
Posts: 2407
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 11:22 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:45 am

What exactly is NW considering doing in PDX?
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:00 am

NW is looking at flying PDX-NRT
Posts: 1352
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:36 am

Why would fly to NRT out of PDX. Makes no sense!

Add that flight to SFO or SEA
Posts: 429
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 11:55 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 8:56 am


Why would it make "no sense"? If there is a demand, why would it not make sense? If (and I stress if) NW flies the route, it is because they feel (especially with the incentives the port of Portland) they can make a profit. Remember that PDX had NS service to NRT since 1983 before DL cancelled. Why would an additional flight from SFO or SEA be better? With the AS/QX codeshare, I would argue that PDX-NRT would be better than SFO-NRT. Also, SFO has no shortage of flights to Asia (let alone Narita). Not trying to be confrontational, just want to hear the logic behind your argument.
Posts: 1352
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:02 am


That's true, but at that time, DL had a lot of flights out of PDX (WHich they don't anymore). NW will have to rely on Alaska (or Horizon) to feed that route. That's why I am saying that more flights (if necessary) on the SEA-NRT or the SFO-NRT already have the needed support from feeders.

Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:31 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:32 pm

I understand the business prospects at Portland, but I don't think that a lot of Japanese live in Portland...There's more in Seattle, Vancouver, and San Francisco.
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
Posts: 1274
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 1:06 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:44 pm

Yegbey01 -
DL did not have all the many flights to PDX - that was part of the problem in PDX for them. They pretty much only had flights from their hubs plus SFO, LAX and YVR. They also offered nonstop service to JFK and BOS. BOS service lasted only a few months. PDX was mainly a transit stop - from many DL cities, it was a two stop trip to Asia if you flew DL. PDX was similar to what JFK is for DL now - an international gatway with relatively little feed. The big difference of course if the number of international destinations DL serves from JFK and the size of the O&D market there.
Posts: 1352
Joined: Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:04 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 2:57 pm


I know what you mean, but I guess DL had a sizebale presence at PDX a few years back. As you said, they had service to YVR, LAX and SFO (Which aren't your DL hubs). They had at least 3 flights a day to YVR if I remember correctly. YVR to SLC wasn't even serviced. Many people used to fly to PDX to connect to California on DL. After the open skies agreenment, DL changed its service to Canada. They cancelled YEG, YYC to SLC (YYC now is served by Skywest) and YVR had some service from CVG, PDX and SLC for a short time. And all of a sudden the PDX YVR service was dropped. So were the LAX, SFO to PDX.

My point here is that PDX just wasn't meant to be used as a hub or an international gateway at all by DL. And without your Business Class and full Y coacj connecting from YVR, SFO and LAX, the PDX NRT would just never make any money.

Why would NW all of a sudden start operating that route out of PDX ??

User avatar
Posts: 1349
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 2:12 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 5:00 pm

Because PDX has traditionally been a strong NW city and NRT is a connecting hub for NW. PDX pax will be able to connect onward to other Asian cities such as BKK, HGK, TPE, ICN, MNL & PDK. Tie that in with potential feed from AS on this side of the Pacific and that NRT flight just might fill up.

Remember, PDX only has SEA & YVR as connecting options to Asia that does not require backtracking.
Uncle SAN at your service!
Posts: 1348
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 10:47 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:20 am

NW already flies SEA - Tokyo so they couldn't add that. There are a lot of tech companies with Asian ties in the Portland area, plus other imports such as cars and sports apparel. PDX also has more available cargo capacity than SEA.
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:39 am

Remember, NW will operate 150 less seats on SEA when the 747 goes to the A330-200. A Portland flight would only increase the Pac NW seats by about 50-100 per day. That should be enough to split the flow that Alaska/Horizon/Delta/Continental gives NW at SEA between SEA and PDX. The PDX local market could make up the rest. I think it makes sense. It's just a matter of if NW can make money on the route. I have no idea how they are doing on Seattle today. The 747 may be way too big and losing money, or it could be stuffed.
Posts: 3269
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 2:20 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:49 am

It's usually stuffed, but that's no indicaiton of whether it makes money. The SEA-NRT route took a big hit with the SARS scare last spring, but I think on balance it is a traditional bread and butter flight for them with strong historical connections.

This is the first I've heard NW is going to go to the A330 on that route, UA went to a 777 some years back on the same route, and also seems to be doing well. PDX-NRT might be one way of mitegating the number of seats, though bilateral agreements and NRT capacity restrictions will make intruducing such a route difficult unless they already have authority or move authority from one of their other NRT routes. I suppose though if there was sufficient demand and NW thought they could make money off it, they could use one of their 744's out of SEA, perhaps in the summer months.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:54 am

Yes PDX is on the ballot in AirTran's "Pick Our Next City" poll, but the earliest they would probably see service by FL would be next fall. The contract with Ryan Int'l could be extended until AirTran has enough 737s in the fleet to not need the A320s of Ryan Int'l. Until then, they could add PDX and do BWI-PDX, ATL-PDX, and maybe MCO-PDX. I think PDX or SEA could be added as they could put the 737s in service straight from Boeing, just ferry them over to PDX or SEA from BFI.
Posts: 237
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 2:09 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:16 am


Portland does have a good sized asian population, and specifically Japanese & Chinese. Portland's japanese gardens are the best in the US and one of the Oregon's congressmen (david wu) is the 1st Chinese american in the US House; not to mention cargo ops. Not to be an advert. for pdx, but it doesn't seem you have backing behind your statement.
No doubt in my mind that a NW PDX-NRT 5x could be profitable.
Posts: 5055
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:28 am

Srbmod-I doubt AirTran would expand to those flights. Alaska would have jumped all over some of these markets if the numbers showed it can be done. PDX is a weird bird, and with AS not starting trancon, I think it shows it may not be able to support flights other to major cities. That being said, AS may jump onto PDX-MCO with a 73G since MCO has showed wonderful loads from SEA.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
Posts: 600
Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:00 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:40 am

Portland is one step closer to recieving asia service..On new channel 8 tonight at 6:oo they are going to reveal which airline is scouting out gate space at the airport. If it true that Portland cannot support tran con flights, then why does Continental has a flight to Newark and delta has mutiple flights to Alanta? The bottom line is Alaska just has lost interest in Portland period!
Posts: 3281
Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 11:02 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:03 pm

Leneld and Airnondo are right on...

PDX is close, not sure how close, but it's only a matter of time before nonstops to Asia return. The last governor and the current governor have both made trade visits to both China and Japan, and probably Korea too, to build interest in Oregon's agribusiness markets as well as high-tech. While not quite what SEA and SFO have, the Portland metro. area does have a significant Asian population, and demand has been strong ever since DL pulled out in 2001 to restore some level of service.

I wouldn't be surprised if either NW or some Asian airline started up 4-5x per week to PDX. With Oregon's economy showing signs it has a pulse (the unemployment rate has gone from about 8% to about 7.6% now) the potential is certainly there.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:33 pm

There's signs that NW's interested in PDX-NRT -- for example, it's rumored the airline's in discussions with Airbus to expedite delivery of several A332. If the route were to happen, it'd likely fly alongside SEA-NRT as an A332... I'd expect NW to rely on AS feed, I wouldn't expect any additional NW service to PDX. (Even though PDX media has claimed that NW would get additional incentives for offering, say JFK-PDX once-daily with A319 to feed the flight, any additional route would be competing with NW's other t-pac service... in my example, JFK-PDX-NRT would compete with JFK-NRT n/s). FYI: SFO-NRT is the only t-pac route scheduled to move to the A332 despite what's written on

BTW, the SEA-HNL and SEA-OGG flights are likely B753, not A330, bound... NW has told its pilots it's going to ETOPS the B753 fleet for West Coast - Hawaii service, and the above routes are NW's lone remaining West Coast - Hawaii service...

[Edited 2003-11-25 07:36:10]
Posts: 5752
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 5:30 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:41 pm

Like Industrial Pate, I find it VERY hard to believe that NW would run a JFK-PDX flight to feed PDX-NRT... doesn't make any sense. What might make more sense is MKE-PDX or BOS-PDX or PHL-PDX.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
Posts: 4251
Joined: Thu Feb 17, 2000 9:58 am


Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:12 pm

Ditto TWFirst's comments. How about MEM-PDX, instead? Leaving reality for a moment, perhaps NW could base some A330s or DC10s in MEM, and fly them on a rotation of MEM-PDX-NRT-PDX-MEM-LGW-MEM, etc.

At any rate, while I do think PDX-NRT could work solely with the AS codeshare, I don't think it's impossible we'll see MKE-PDX or MEM-PDX show up to connect to this proposed service.

Aaron G.
Posts: 878
Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2000 2:08 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:13 am

About the 753 service SEA-HNL, and SEA-OGG.....

This seems crazy to me considering you cant get on these flights as it is with A DC10 via NW or 763's via HA.

A little note I read a while back said the the SEA-Hawaii market is the most underserved market that offers N/S service. It stated that the double daily NW flights were usually pascked and forget about the HA 763 to HNL or OGG. They asked why after HA lost capacity with the switch from the DC10 to the 763 a 2nd SEA-HNL flight wasnt added. The Answer was the SEA-OGG flight.

So, if NW goes with the 753, I sure hope they have double daily SEA-HNL.

But then I would ask, if you can fill two 753's, why waste the extra money on 2 753 flights instead of 1 747 flight?


Isnt the NW SEA-NRT running at like 90-95% load factor?
UA running close to the same??? Heard a rumor about a month ago from a UA employee here at SEA, UA was thinking about bringing the 744 back for the SEA-NRT?!?
You mad Bro???
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:46 am

I don't imagine we'll see a MEM-PDX flight. NW has been downgrading MEM to a mostly RJ operation (although mainliners still fly to the key leisure and business markets). MEM passengers going to NRT can do so via a quick and easy connection in MSP,SFO,SEA,LAX, etc. PDX-NRT would probably work on its own with an A332 w/o any connections.

Stephen in New Orleans

Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:34 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:11 am

PDX-NRT might not need any NW domestic connections, but don't forget it would likely be fed by a fair number of AS/QX flights from around the Northwest. I think one of the problems with DL's Pacific hub at PDX was that all of the DL feed was from cities that already had nonstop (JFK, ATL, DFW, SFO, YVR) or at least lots of one-stop (BOS, SLC) service to NRT. AS and QX, by contrast, serve a whole bunch of destinations from which connecting through SEA is now the only option for traveling to/from NRT. Also, across the Pacific, whereas DL's service was limited to just a couple of destinations in NE Asia (NRT and, at different times, NGO, FUK, etc.), NW can provide connections all over Asia (BKK, SIN, PEK, etc.) through its hub at NRT. These factors, combined with a smaller aircraft (A330 vs. MD-11), and of course considerable local subsidies, just might make it work.

[Edited 2003-11-25 18:15:55]
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
Posts: 5055
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:23 am

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:29 am

LENALD- You missed my point. I stated "other then major cities". All those airline you stated are just flying to thier hubs on the other coast. When I spoke of transcon not supported I ment other then the obvious city's. CO to EWR and DL to ATL, every city has that. Where is CO to CLE,or DL ro JFK, any thing to MIA,BOS,BWI,and JFK. PDX just can't support that. Like I said before you could see AS to CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO, but if there was a market, we'd be all over it. Our marketing department is top notch, proof is in our load factors with the new flights to the east coast. Fact is PDX is a step above CLE or PITwhere its can support a little more mainline service, and a little more International due to the diversity in the population and business. I don't mean that as a knock on PDX, I love it there. Just can't and won't hang as long as SEA is to the north and SFO/LAX remains to the south. You will see QX/AS serve what markets are there with what aircraft they need, NW maybe to NRT, I doubt much more then that. Please to turn what I say, I just say my opinion.
"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
Posts: 351
Joined: Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:03 pm

RE: Any SEA Or PDX News?

Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:35 am

wow. i figured that NW had given up on the idea after not hearing anything last month. it would be great to see an A332 in the new c/s at PDX! i'll have to watch that news show tonight at 6 since i'm down here for the holiday.

Popular Searches On

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos