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Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:07 am

Hi everyone,
Yes, there was a while ago a post all about the market there could be for the 777-300 Series aircraft in the United States, and I replied saying that Northwest and United would likely be customers for that aircraft given the expanded network they both have in the Pacific Sector. I then realised Northwest and United would not order it because Boeing is offering the 777-300ER only with GE engines, Northwest and United would consider buying it if it were offered with PW engines, I'm not sure American will order any of those, then I thought maybe Continental could buy it and be the first US customer for the type.
This sounds like a plausible thing to me for the following reasons:
1. Continental always goes Boeing. Bethune always looks at all Boeing twinjets when buying new airplanes.
2. Continental already has GE powered B777-200ER's which they operate on international flights to Europe and the Far East.
3. Air France, with whom they codeshare and work, has already ordered the B777-300ER so if Continental buys it then maybe they can get together to work on the maintenance of that aircraft.

Do you think Continental will go for the B777-300ER?

Ben Soriano
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Ben Soriano
 
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:14 am

It could just be me, but I fail to see any routes that could support the large capcity of the 777-300ER without having to sacrifice frequency. I think CO's current widebody makeup of 767-200, 767-400, 777-200ER fit them well for the size airline they are and the routes they fly. Wasn't this one of the reasons why Bethune got rid of the 747-200?

Of course, stranger things have happened.


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DeltaSFO
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:15 am

Where on earth would they fly it? The mix they have is perfectly suited to their network.

Engine type is not a deal breaker as far as aircraft are concerned. BA and JL operate mixed fleets, as does DL with its 767s. So I wouldn't necessarily rule out UA and NW for simple reason of engine type. And I wouldn't rule CO more likely simply for that reason.

I'd say UA and NW are the only US carriers that would even consider the 777-300ER, and within that context, there are plenty of reasons to assume that neither one will be flying it anytime soon.
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STT757
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:20 am

If the economics are right airlines like UAL and NWA will choose the 777-300ER regard less of the engine type, DL operates 767s with GE and PW powered 767s.

CO at some point (not for a couple years) will look at the 777-200LR for routes like EWR-HKG, it would correct the current weight penalty issues they experience flying 777-200ERs on the route. It would also allow them to continue their expansion into Asian from EWR and IAH, such as Singapore and Taipei.

They will likely order the 777-300ER if...

A renewal of the Israeli/Palestinian Peace process brings about the calm experienced in that region during the late 1990s/early 2000, CO was flying double daily 777-200s at one point. The 777-300ER would fit them perfectly on this route, "if" calm and reason could once again return to the people in charge over there so that tourism and trade between North America and Israeli and Palestine can be allowed to flourish.

The other reason I could see CO ordering the 777-300ER is if they were to get Heathrow access, whether the 10 daily flights they requested or 2 daily flights.
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STT757
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:23 am

"Where on earth would they fly it?"

EWR-Tel Aviv, IAH-LGW.

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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:26 am

CLE-TOL  Big grin
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bmacleod
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:32 am

CO really needs nothing larger than the 777-200 at the moment. Yes, if passenger traffic really booms over the next 5 years, but don't look for an announcement in the near future....

[Edited 2003-11-15 19:33:07]
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ual777contrail
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:46 am

Where did CO get the 175million for the 777-300? I didn't think they had the cash to spend on new airplanes. You would think they would save their cash for awhile before spending it on a plane they don't need that many seats for.

Would be cool to see a US carrier fly the 777-300, but I have to agree with the above posts, UAL or NWA would be the only ones to need that size of plane, for the pacific division.



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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:41 am

Where did CO get the 175million for the 777-300?

And that'd be with a 50% discount off the list price  Laugh out loud


(which no one pays anyways)
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yyz717
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:51 am

Any current 772 customer is a likely 772LR/773/773ER customer in the next 10 years. Once US major financial performance returns, the 773 will be the most logical capacity addition to the 772 fleet, and as a 744 replacement.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:15 am

In time, I eventually see many current 772ER operators eventually flying the 777NGs.... but not at the current premium Boeing is pricing them at. No doubt it doesnt want them to eat into the 772ER's market while that plane is still hot.

The 772LR has a particular advantage: as it can carry up to 22 tons more payload than the 772ER, but still fly 7730nm, great for an airline who doesnt need to the range of the 772LRET (i.e., most airlines  Laugh out loud)
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gigneil
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:03 am

If CO were to get LHR rights by way of the exit of UA or AA, then GE90-94B powered 773As would be more than adequate and much, much more cost effective to operate their flights.

N
 
Virginia
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:33 am

Continental does not need the B777-300ER's at this moment or maybe never will be needed, because Boeing is already working on the B7E7, and personnally I think they will go for that one.
Or the B777LR because of the increased payload earlier mentioned.


Virginia


 
cedarjet
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:38 am

STT757, I love the idea of pinning your hopes of a 773 order from CO upon peace between Israel and Palestine.

Gigneil is on to something, if CO got Heathrow access then definitely, the 773 would be perfect.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
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STT757
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:11 am

"STT757, I love the idea of pinning your hopes of a 773 order from CO upon peace between Israel and Palestine."

If CO can fill up a 777-200 (which they often do) flying daily between EWR and Tel Aviv during the height of the Inta Fada, then they can fly twice daily 777-300s when there's peace.

During the peacefull years CO operated twice daily 777-200 flights, there's huge demand for these flights from NY/NJ.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:32 am

Not to mention the fact that Delta had entered the market as well, during that time period
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STT757
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:39 am

"Not to mention the fact that Delta had entered the market as well, during that time period "

As was TWA...

You had..

CO 2xs daily from EWR-Tel Aviv

DL daily from JFK

and

TWA daily from JFK.
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cedarjet
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:52 am

I know STT757, just having a giggle. I presume the Delta and TWA services were both 767-300s? I'd pay extra for a 777 over a 767.
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:59 am

You know, I don't know how any airlines could put up the cash any time soon with all the lost profits going around... You don't see many United States airlines ordering new planes, you just see deliveries that were probably modified from larger orders a few years ago. Personally, I'd sit back and wait a while until the economy goes up, or until we get a new president in the white house...
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airzim
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:39 am

Well since Bethune has stated that at this moment they have too many widebodies hence why they are chucking 777's on HNL, I would doubt CO would ever be a contender for the 773.

In fact I think the current situation speaks for itself, you don't see CO, AA, or DL with the 747's hanging around it's neck as it tries to fill capacity.

The 773 appears to be the perfect replacement for 742 on medium to long haul flights, CO doesn't have any markets that today support the need for that capacity, I doubt you'll see much need in the future.

I agree CO will be a central player in the 7E7 program and will again leverage their hub strength to exploit nonstop service to more cities that aren't currently served.

 
CB777
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:44 am

Airzim,
CO doesn't have too many widbodies, if anything they are short widebodies. They have routes that can use widebody service such as CLE-LGW, they can definitely use a 767-200 or maybe a 767-400 on that route.


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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:16 pm

They have routes that can use widebody service such as CLE-LGW.

Actually, for now, the 752 is the perfect aircraft for CLE-LGW. It doesn't need anything bigger. CLE can fill 16 BFiirst seats on the 757, but would struggle to consistently fill 25 BFirst seats on a 762. Remember, it's BFirst, not the number of coach seats that drives any CO international flight, since that's where the money is made.

When and if the CLE hub is expanded, then possible a 762 would be more sutible for the route, but that time is certainly not now.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:29 pm

I presume the Delta and TWA services were both 767-300s?

DL's was an M11, TW's was 747 (-100 and -SP)
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:30 pm

"Where did CO get the 175million for the 777-300?

And that'd be with a 50% discount off the list price"

Are you saying that the list price for this airplane is $350 million? I cannot imagine it is that high.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 12:35 pm

Actually, according to Boeing's website:

$231,500,000 is the current 773ER list rate (all options standard)....

...as compared to $185M for a simple 744A, or $162-$182 for the 772ER (various options).
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RayChuang
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:10 pm

I don't think CO will buy the 777-300ER anytime soon. CO doesn't need a plane with that much pax/cargo capacity.

However, CO may eventually get the 777-200LR, though. This makes it possible for CO to fly routes like EWR-HKG with less load restrictions and maybe someday EWR-JNB (if they ever get the route authority!).
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:16 pm

If Northwest said that they would buy the 777-300 if Boeing offered it with Pratts, then you can bet your ass that Boeing will offer Pratts on it. They did it for the 757-300 for NW. Boeing right now would rather offer a 777-300 with Pratts than risk Northwest getting an A340-600 some day.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:29 pm

Too bad NW has already made it clear that they are NOT interested in Pratt-powered 777s

Among the reasons they chose the A330s for the current operations: PW-powered 777s would be overkill transatlantically (for the configuration they planned to use), but underperformers transpacifically.  Laugh out loud
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airzim
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:53 pm

It is a common misperception that CO is short widebodies. The opposite is closer to reality in the view of people on Smith Street. They weren't really excited about the 764's they got after 9/11 since they retrenched into their core markets, they considered parking or getting rid of their two original 777's, which they kept in the end. The deferred their 753's and eventually agreed with Boeing to convert some of the remaining ones to 737's. If anything this tells you they are definitely not in the mood to add anymore widebodies where they can't deploy on existing markets and where they have no ambition to expand into new markets. Unlike some of their overly aggressive compatriots overseas (Emirates), CO has a new mantra (well maybe not so new). Pragmatism.
 
Thrust
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:58 pm

Who knows? When I hear Continental order the 777-300ER I'll believe it. Still...It seems to click right in my head...Continental does have the long-range routes for the jet. We'll see, though...Like I said....When I see, I'll believe.
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ual777contrail
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:08 pm

CO getting LHR slots is like Gordo keeping his big mouth shut, never going to happen.


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desertjets
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:15 pm

AirZim really does make a good point about their being a glut of widebodies.

A few things to remember... CO does almost no domestic widebody flying... save one or two R/Ts between Houston and Newark.

There have been major long haul frequency and route cuts since 9/11. The Hong Kong flights haven't returned to daily frequency, which would require three aircraft to fly. Tel Aviv remains just a single daily, not 2x. South American flights have been cut dramatically... Used to have EWR-GRU/GIG and IAH-GRU... now only IAH-GRU-GIG and EWR-GRU, not sure if they are daily either. EWR-CDG is no longer double daily year round. Plus a few other ones that are reasonably notable.

I don't know the number of 767 deliveries CO got after they dumped the remaining DC-10 fleet after 9-11... but numbers had to be at least equal to what was lost, plus I believe they also recieved ships 017 and 018 as well.
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airzim
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:18 pm

UAL777,

Can't wait for you to choke on that last one when "Gordo" shoves his Dewar's on the rocks down your throat.

Never is a very definitive word.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:40 pm

AIRZIM,
what ARE YOU SAYING? YER DRUNK AND ARENT Making much sense? Like with your other posts?

Gordo isn't aloud mouth? You aren't to familiar with aviation, let me introduce you to the MOUTH!!!


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airzim
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:56 pm

Let me introduce you to sarcasm.

I never said that Gordo wasn't a loud mouth. Let's revist what you said above, "CO getting LHR slots is like Gordo keeping his big mouth shut, never going to happen."

All I was saying is that when CO does get LHR slots, which the will, Gordo would be happy to take your condecending UA attitude and shove it down your throat.
 
tekelberry
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:53 pm

All I was saying is that when CO does get LHR slots, which the will

Are you kidding me? LHR is overcrowded the way it is, and you think they're going to open up more slots?
 
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airzim
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:17 pm

Tekelberry,

We'll wait and see. When the bilateral changes and other US carriers gain access to LHR, I think we are likely to see things open up. Whether that is from buying slots from other carriers, much like BA has recently done from UA, or they are given slots, CO, DL, and NW will find a way in.
 
ual777contrail
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:00 am

AIRZIM,
Are you Gordos son? CO Wont get the slots and neither will DL,NW, it isn't my choice, I don't care.

Like I said, CO will get slots when they silence the mouth, that isn't going to happen so, sorry Charlie.


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gigneil
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:09 am

If Northwest said that they would buy the 777-300 if Boeing offered it with Pratts, then you can bet your ass that Boeing will offer Pratts on it.

Korean Air operates the 777-300 with PW4098s on it with great success.

Boeing can not legally offer anything but the GE90 on the 777-300ER. I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated. This is a LEGAL CONSTRAINT that BOEING IS POWERLESS TO CHANGE.

N
 
phatfarmlines
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:11 am

Is Continental likely to order the B777-300ER?

No.

Is Continental likely to order the ERJ-145LRLRXRXRERERIGW?

Yes.
 
CALMSP
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:45 am

who knows maybe we'll order it to fly the IAH-GUM route? Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:11 am

Korean Air operates the 777-300 with PW4098s on it with great success.

Great success? ...uh, no.

That engine drinks so much fuel that Trent890/PW4090-powered 773As actually have longer range at similar payload capacity.

There's a reason that KE is the only airline to utilize the PW4098 ya know... even UA was smart enough to reject it when offered  Big grin

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ybacpa
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:49 am

Is Continental likely to order the ERJ-145LRLRXRXRERERIGW?

Oh come on, we all know CO is holding out for the ERJ-145LRLRXRXRERERIGW-SUD.


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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:29 am

yer both wrong...

it's going to be the ERJ145LRLRXRXRERERIGW-SUD-E/T.... and ETOPS certified on top of that  Laugh out loud
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ybacpa
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:38 am

ConcordeBoy,
Yeah I completely forgot about the ETOPs requirement, if I remember correctly they were expecting ETOPs 470 from the start.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Is Continental Likely To Order The B777-300ER?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:40 am

Dont forget the 15% Siberian extension  Laugh out loud
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