StarFlyer
Topic Author
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Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 3:52 am

Good morning/day/evening/afternoon fellow a.netters.

As we all know, there is only two major plane manufacturers left, out of a whole number of companies (MD, Lockheed).
Now Boeing in particular is in trouble. If they do not give the 7E7 a go ahead, the entire market would be left to Airbus. No doubt the 7E7 will be a success, there needs to be a new aircraft that size incorporating a whole lot of new technology. If the 7E7 does not receive its go ahead Boeing is dead. Everyone at Boeing knows this.

Now lets imagine Boeing is ceasing civil aircraft production. Airbus would be the only manufacturer left. What would this mean? Higher (and I mean a lot higher) list prices for aircraft, and no special financing deals, as every airline would now have to buy Airbus.
On top of that, Airbus would not see the incentive to develop new aircraft/concepts as they would have a monopoly. It is proven that monopolies do not lead to the same results such as a duopoly (two suppliers, many buyers) even.

This is why we need Boeing! Higher airfares and less comfortable aircraft would be the result if Boeing went belly-up!

So I sincerely hope they give the 7E7 the go-ahead as soon as possible in order to benefit the entire industry as outlined above.

What are your views on the issue?
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
mandala499
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:27 am

We need not just Boeing, we need at least a 3rd manufacturer of at least some part of the seat range >100 seats that can give both Airbus and Boeing a run for their money ! Otherwise it's so boring... Why only have A v B fights when we can create more nonsense by adding another manufacturer into the fight Big grin

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:42 am

Who knows, maybe Bombardier or Embraer will build a widebody in about 10 years.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:57 am

You brought up good points, but also if Airbus were to create a monopoly should Boeing go under, I'm sure airlines would either approach Bombardier or embraer or some other manufacturewr to build them a cheaper airliner. I certainly hope Boeing survives, and that the 7e7 is the success we all hope it to be.
Life is better when you surf.
 
bobrayner
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:21 am

In the short term - there are many aircraft sitting in the desert; some would be happy to dust them off, if the cost of a new machine were excessive.

In the long term - if there's sufficient demand, then somebody else will start making airliners too. Doesn't matter who.

Anyway, it's hard to imagine the US government sitting idly by if Boeing were to implode. Laissez-faire economics ceases when voters' jobs are threatened.
Cunning linguist
 
cancidas
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:25 am

can you imagine a world without boeing? what a bland day spotters would have. boeing was a pioneer in aviation's early days. it's a shame they are in the shape they are in today.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
Guest

RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:37 am

And now you see what happens when the people who helped drive one commercial division into the ground, get to stay on the Board of the company they bought. Oops...I mean that bought them out.
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:40 am

Boeing is not going to exit the commercial market. Airbus makes a great product but they are not going to drive Boeing out of the market.

If (emphasis on IF) this were ever to become close to reality I believe our government will step in. The US is not going to lose the aircraft industry like we lost the auto industry.
 
skymileman
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:44 am

I absolutely agree with the author 100%. In fact, I have been trying to put that into words to tell people, and now I think I will just print out this topic. It is a classic case of dependence between two long-time rivals.

-Lane

i.e. What would the UM Grizzlies be if they didn't play the MSU Cats every year.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:45 am


Monopolies not only increase prices but also, there is a tendency for the quality of a product (speaking in general) to decrease.
 
727LOVER
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:48 am

Ummm...if Airbus went under, wouldn't the result be the same? Wouldn't Boeing do everything you claim Airbus would do?  Confused
Love Trumps Hate
 
DL328
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:00 pm

I agree that Boeing isn't doing quite as well as they used to, but I don't think they will go under. Like others have said, the government won't allow their aircraft industry to go. Plus, all military aircraft, missiles, etc. production would be left to Lockheed and if they were to go as well, relying on other countries for our military aircraft would not be an option.
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:10 pm

Boeing is not going under... not by a long shot. The author was questioning if Boeing was forced out of the commercial airplane market how would that affect Airbus, not if Boeing went under completely. I may be incorrect here but I believe Boeing is larger than Lockheed in the military market.

Also, if Boeing were to pull out of the commercial market I really think Lockheed would jump in. They would certainly give Airbus a run for their money. Hmmm, a modern day L-1011 (L-1111???) or perhaps even an SST... just imagine what kind of commercial plane the skunkworks could produce given the right market conditions!

[Edited 2003-11-18 04:13:15]
 
planemaker
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:45 pm

Echoing L1011Fan's post, I suggest that some people actually go to Boeing's web site and learn just a wee little bit about the Boeing Company. The main thrust of moving Head Office to Chicago was to emphasize that Boeing is so much more than commercial jets.

L1011FAN, do you really think that Lockheed would re-enter the airliner market and give Airbus a run for their money if Boeing didn't bring out another new airliner?

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:53 pm

Planemaker:

Yes I do.

If Boeing exited the commercial airplane market (leaving Airbus as the only manufacturer left in the world) I think Lockheed, Embraer, and Bombardier would all take a serious look at filling in the gap left by Boeing. I simply think Lockheed would be the most likely to re-enter given how large the company is and the resources/experience they have in building commercial planes.

If Airbus is the only game in town it won't take long for another manufacturer to want to enter the market. This is a no-brainer. But, like I said before, Boeing is not going to exit the commercial market.

[Edited 2003-11-18 04:55:27]

[Edited 2003-11-18 04:57:31]
 
bobrayner
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:56 pm

The main thrust of moving Head Office to Chicago was to emphasize that Boeing is so much more than commercial jets.

Hmmm. Boeing said they did it for the tax breaks..?
Cunning linguist
 
flyf15
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:01 pm

I think Scaled Composites should join up with someone and build an airliner. It would probably have 3 rocket engines, 4 jets, and a piston engine, 2 different fuselages of varying sizes, forward swept wings, and be twice as efficient as anything Boeing or Airbus can put out.  Big thumbs up
 
planemaker
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:16 pm

L1011Fan:

I don't think that Boeing is going to exit the airliner market either. But hypothetically speaking, if the Boeing Board did turn down the 7E7, Boeing would continue building and improving their current airliners (perhaps come up with a 777-100) until they couldn't keep their production lines running (of, this is all hypothetical.) So how do think that Lockheed could do better than Boeing, especially considering that Lockheed has been away from the "game" a while now and would be starting from scratch? I truly find it interesting that you think that it would be possible.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
mirrodie
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:26 pm

Great thread.

I truly doubt Boeing would go under. I don't quite understand what the issue here is. Boeing makes a diverse mix of products and are no where near going under.

Gentlemen, just because Airbus is now ahead does not mean Boeing is gone.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:38 pm

If the Boeing board does not approve the 7E7 you will be correct. They will continue to produce what they can until the sales dry up. They simply won't vanish overnight from the commercial biz.

Sure, hypothetically I do think Lockheed could produce a commercial airliner again. They have amazing technology in their military planes which could be implemented into a modern day jetliner. But alas, it won't happen...
 
StarFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:04 am

Thanks for all your interesting replies!

@Bobrayner,
you cant just jump in and start building planes. the industry requires huge amounts of money being invested long before there is any return on it. So if Boeing goes under, Airbus will have a monopoly for at least a decade I'd say (a start-up or existing producer might have developed an aircraft in the >100 pax range).

What are the chances of US government backing Boeing on this 7E7 issue? A loan with low interest rates maybe or something? Does the government have any money to spend on this?
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
planemaker
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:26 am

L1011Fan:

FYI, Boeing builds the wings for the F-22 Raptor, my point being is that the amazing technology you refer to is not exclusive to Lockheed.

Europe also has quite an advanced fighter in the Typhoon, and Dassault was ahead of the pack, design wise, for a while with the Rafael. You can also argue that the Russians were ahead of the west in a few areas of fighter technology but that did not translate into superior airliners.

If Boeing "can't" (hypothetically) make a go of it with the 7E7, it would appear that Lockheed would not even dream about investing the money that would be required to get back into the airliner game from scratch.

So, yes, I agree with you that (hypothetically) Lockheed "could" build an airliner but financial and market realities would preclude it. Don't you think?
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
L.1011
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:44 am

Well everybody guess what. There is NOT A CHANCE IN HELL that Boeing will not build the 7E7. There is NOT A CHANCE IN HELL that Boeing Commercial will go under. The 7E7 and its technologies, spread to other lines, will be the DEATH OF AIRBUS END OF STORY. The A380 won't come close to breaking even so the damned EU is going to come in and "SAVE THE WORLD FROM BOEINGS EVIL TYRANNY........surrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrre." The EU will help and save Airbus, but they will have no chance. Thanks to the new 7E7 and updated 737, 777, and 747, all Airbus planes become immediately OBSELETE! End of Story.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:51 am

Why doesn´t Boeing join Lockheed-Martin or vice verca
and make a real skunkwork Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Michael/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
Leskova
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:30 am

L.1011, when I read posts like yours, I get the feeling that the age limit of 13 and older on a.net might actually be too young... grow up and learn before you post further junk like that...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
miamix707
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:43 am

I hope Mirrodie is right, because if one day airlines are forced to buy only A319s and A330s... I seriously would lose my interest in aviation
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:44 am

I agree with Leskova. Even though I'm a Boeing man through and through, I appreciate Airbus as fine aircraft. People like L1011 give Boeing a bad name; how ridiculous.
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
VC-10
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:50 am

can you imagine a world without boeing?

I can. Here in the UK we have lost

Armstrong Whitworth
Avro
Blackburn
Bristol
British Aircraft Corporation
De Havilland
Gloster
Hawkers
Hawker Siddeley
Supermarine
Vickers

I could go on further, but you get the point
 
planemaker
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:50 am

Leskova:

Well said!


Solnabo:

Why not have Boeing join up with Lockheed - they have on the F-22 Raptor. And they seem to have joined up with just about everyone else on the 7E7. Even the wings might be made in Japan.

Don't forget Boeing's "attempt" to JV with Europe quite a while ago by taking on "fire-walled" talks and feasibility study with seperate Airbus partners (some people claim this was just a Boeing ploy to keep Airbus from going ahead with the A3XX.)

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
miamix707
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:46 am

lol @ Leskova and L1011... a dose of sense of humor in different styles
 
tekelberry
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:25 am

The airline industry needs Boeing as much as it needs Airbus. Economics 101. Without major competition, the airlines would be struggling even more than they already are and the manufacturer would be laughing all the way to the bank.
 
flyingbronco05
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:59 am

Topic: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

If there was no boeing, the commercial airplane industry would be a monopoly and that is illegal.

Enough said  Big grin
Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:44 pm

Quote
Now Boeing in particular is in trouble. If they do not give the 7E7 a go ahead, the entire market would be left to Airbus. No doubt the 7E7 will be a success, there needs to be a new aircraft that size incorporating a whole lot of new technology. If the 7E7 does not receive its go ahead Boeing is dead. Everyone at Boeing knows this.


What a statement.

I see the 737NG garnishing half the narrow body orders, and the 777 getting most of the "bigger" wide body orders.

Today I see Airbus getting half the narrow bodies and most of the medium haul widebodies.

Airbus has the super jumbo locked up, whilst Boeing has the jumbo (lacking these days, true)

Me thinks, that if the 7E7 is launched, then the two will split the narrow bodies, Boeing will own the wide bodies upto 450 seats.

Who is in trouble? LOL
 
mandala499
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:43 pm

Bobrayner (Reply #15)...
Hmmm. Boeing said they did it for the tax breaks..? Well, that just proves it! Boeing is much more than commercial jets... Tax Breaks Big grin:D:D

L1011.
Lockheed lost out with their Tristar. Excellent planes, but they left... I don't see why Lockheed would come in now. I'm putting my bets on Bombardier for the Boeing replacer if Boeing leaves!

Wow, reply#22? LOL Big grin My hand clapping goes to Leskova and BCAInfoSys! LOL

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
StarFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:53 pm

Flyingbronco05:If there was no boeing, the commercial airplane industry would be a monopoly and that is illegal

Ahem, NO, monopolies are not illegal. Period.
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
Alessandro
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:24 am

Why don´t people think of Antonov, Beriev, Illjysin, Tupolev and Yakolev anymore? I mean if Airbus/Boeing would be one company the only competition
would be from these manufacturers...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
irishpower
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:35 am

Boeing isn't going anywhere, neither is Airbus for that matter.

1. Business moves in cycles--right now Boeing is climbing out of the bottom of negative market. They will again be profitable. Business cycles move up and down--it is NORMAL.

2. Competition is the life force for business--I agree I think we could use a third manufacturer. Now, if there is room for one right now????---that is another story!!!
 
StarFlyer
Topic Author
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RE: Why The Industry Needs Boeing

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:21 am

No western airline could order Russian aircraft without a significant image loss. Its a fact, a sad one. That's why those manufacturers are not included in the discussion.
Yours truly - StarFlyer