backfire
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Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:06 am

This week's Flight says that Airbus is planning a set of meetings to discuss a competitor to the Boeing 7E7.

Airbus is planning meetings in Atlanta, Frankfurt and Hong Kong and is considering both all-new and A330-derivative configurations.

Airbus is believed to be looking again at the planned A305 or A30X configuration, originally designed to replace the A300 and A310.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:11 am

No doubt they're discussing it/planning it... but the real question is what (aside from here-and-there tweaks on the A332) can they actually do about it, as most of their finances/development is and will be focused on the A388 for the near future.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
irishpower
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:11 am

I doubt that Airbus has the time or money to study a new plane. All of their time and money is tied up in the A380.

My guess is that they will tinker with the A330--put new engines on it etc...

Down the road (say in 2010-2012) I see them developing a new class of mid size aircraft.


 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:19 am

They're also entering the game late. And of course they have the financing of the A380 project on their shoulders as well.

This makes it significantly harder for them to put a ton of development into a brand new airplane. I'd predict that Boeing will remain ahead of airbus with it's 7e7 for a long time to come.

I suspect Airbus may need financial help from france and germany as well to fund the new project, if it happens.
 
ammunition
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:23 am

would say airbus have played it very smart- the 7e7 has no firm orders, it only has interest and if airbus can get in on the game now, they will be level pegging, if not ahead of boeing as airlines will wait to see whats on offer from both manufacturers.
Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:32 am

How far behind in timing is Airbus on this? When did Boeing really start working on the 7e7?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
OD720
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:35 am

They had the A318, A340-500 and A340-600 going alongside the A380. Now they have the A380 only. Does this mean they can venture in a new project? Maybe they can.

Boeing should know by now not to underestimate Airbus.
 
planemaker
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:08 am

Ah, don't forget that Airbus Military also has a "little" project on its hands...

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
wingman
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:16 am

I heard a rumor that Airbus has a counterfeit printing operation hidden underneath its plant in Toulouse. This gives them the ability to launch three new airframes simultaneously which has never before been possible in commercial aviation.
 
cfalk
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:19 am

If Airbus can count on government "Loans" to fund full-scale development of a new airliner, Boeing might have a problem. There is no way that Boeing can compete with the EU governments, in terms of R&D funding.

One other possibility - this might be an example of "vaporware". The idea is to tell everyone that you will build something as good or better than the 7E7, and potential clients for the 7E7 might hold off on their orders in anticipation of that product even if it doesn't exist yet.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
transswede
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:33 am

Cfalk, re: "vaporware" - just like Boeing and the A380, yes?  Smile
 
tekelberry
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:38 am

would say airbus have played it very smart- the 7e7 has no firm orders

Well that makes sense considering Boeing can't take any orders until the board of directors approves it.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:56 am

Cfalk: If Airbus can count on government "Loans" to fund full-scale development of a new airliner, Boeing might have a problem. There is no way that Boeing can compete with the EU governments, in terms of R&D funding.

Check out the Seattle Post-Intelligencer's article, Boeing had to have 7E7 help, experts say, which carries this gem:

The Japanese Aircraft Development Corp. has formally asked the government for financial help to support the 7E7 program. Most of the 7E7 work is going to Japan's big three heavy machinery makers -- Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Fuji Heavy industries.

Note that most of the 7E7 fuselage and wings will be produced in Japan, and a substantial part of the rear fuselage produced in Italy. Boeing divisions will produce the nose, vertical tail, some wing parts, and the wing-body fairing.

My attempt at Airbus spin: Those hypocrites are milking governments for subsidies wherever they can get them, so what are they complaining about?

My attempt at Boeing spin: Big bad Airbus has captured more than half the market using government subsidies, so we'll be crushed like a bug unless we do whatever it takes to compete.

My attempt at American worker spin: Government subsidies in Japan and Europe are destroying American jobs.

My attempt at American taxpayer spin: Since so much value in a Boeing jetliner is imported, and so much value in an Airbus jetliner is American, there is no real reason to favor Boeing over Airbus in the next round of tankers


 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:27 am

My attempt at American taxpayer spin

Shouldnt that be more along the lines of: "Huh? They're buying Airplanes? For what, dont they already have some?!"
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
flyLAX
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:35 am

Im not the smartest man in the world, but it seems to me that Airbus is just out to get Boeing for whatever reason.
 
Guest

RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:47 am

Guess they figured they won't just be able to slap on a set of engines.
 
manni
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:00 am

If this is true and Airbus goes ahead with their 3E3  Big grin the A380 looks al of a sudden even more attractive to potential customers. Provided that the new aircraft will be a family member of Airbus' existing products.

did someone mention vaporware? I'd say the 7E7, 747-500 and 747-600 are pretty good examples of that.

FlyLAX,

How about competition, remaining the worlds biggest civil airliner manufacturer in the 100+ seats category, and pleasing their shareholders as a reason to get Boeing?  Insane

Anyway great news all together!
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
Birdwatching
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:28 am

Manni: and the Sonic Cruiser!


All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:28 am

Airbus has lost about a year or so maybe two on the 7E7. That's a while.

It is certainly not too early to get started on this, and Airbus has sufficient resources to do it. The A380 is being built now - the early concept engineers are free to work on other projects.

N
 
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yyz717
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:32 am

I'm not sure Airbus needs to respond just yet to the 7E7. The 332 is selling very well and the detailed performance stats of the 7E7 suggest that 7E7 & 332 might be competitive with the 7E7 having a slight edge. Airbus might do well to milk 332 sales in the meantime.

Neil.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
lehpron
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:40 am

Greedy fools cannot have their cake and eat it @ the same time, of course who says they are goning to do it now?

Boeing is making the 7E7 and Airbus is making the A380, by the times these planes are either well-deveolped or nearing "replacement time", bothe companies will have planes ready for it.

by about 2020, expect an A380 replacement/competitor by Boeing and a 7E7 competitor/replacement by Airbus.

Besides a plane is not completely replace until either an airline or the company drops it off.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
airways6max
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:09 am

Airbus is already outselling Boeing and they having a very comprehensive lineup, so why would they need to design a rival for the 7E7? The 7E7 is about as big as their A330.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:23 am

As Bill Murray once said in "Caddyshack", I have to laugh".

Airbus now says they are discussing a 7E7 rival. This from a company that said earlier the 7E7 was a non-factor.

Crap or get off the pot guys.......  Yeah sure

I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
futureualpilot
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:29 am

Can Airbus afford to work on the A380 and design a 7e7 rival?

Personally Im hoping the 7e7 blows Airbus away.
Life is better when you surf.
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:45 am

Looks like Airbus finally realized that the 7E7 is for real and, more importantly, it's a very big threat to them. I believe the 7E7 will be a huge success!
 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:37 am

The best time to improve on a product line is when its at its peak.

That way you have the development cycle finishing up right around when the downturn would be, and you don't experience an ordering trough.

Airbus has demonstrated they can work on two models at once, just like Boeing was working on the 777 and the 737NG at the same time.

Most of Airbus' wind tunnel tests and so on are done, I mean, there are complete pieces of the first aircraft complete and on the way to integration. All those engineers that started on the project are now ready to go.

The question is - above the single aisle market, is there really room for competition? The A340NG and 777NG are experiencing lackluster performance at best, the 767 clearly beat the A300 which was clearly beaten by the A330, the 343 by the 772ER.

Can both Boeing and Airbus have a clean-sheet thoroughly modern 200-300 seater and win enough orders to matter?

N
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:49 am

"If Airbus can count on government "Loans" to fund full-scale development of a new airliner, Boeing might have a problem. There is no way that Boeing can compete with the EU governments, in terms of R&D funding."

Good point, particularly in a scenario where they may ultimately not be "loans", after all. I refer to an excerpt from the article "America Helps Build the 'Bus" posted by N79969 in last week's heated 'Air India' thread:

"Based in Toulouse, France, Airbus is jointly owned by two private aerospace companies, European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. and BAE Systems, but is receiving subsidies from European governments in the form of $3 billion in loans that don't have to be repaid if the A380 fails to turn a profit. Boeing gets indirect handouts through its lucrative defense contracts, but critics say they aren't sufficient to level the playing field, and U.S. officials occasionally threaten to punish Airbus".

My post was ignored there because it wasn't central to the prime debate at hand. But I do wonder why the loans would not be repayable, even if the A380 program wasn't profitable. This was certainly not the case with other loans granted to Airbus since 1992, was it?

"If this is true and Airbus goes ahead with their 3E3, the A380 looks all of a sudden even more attractive to potential customers. Provided that the new aircraft will be a family member of Airbus' existing products."

A "3E3" will do nothing for A380 sales, regardless of the 'family' concept. I wouldn't expect the existence of the 7E7 to increase a revised 747's sales, even if uses 7E7 engines and systems. If an airline needs a superjumbo, they'll buy the A380. If they don't, they won't buy it.

"did someone mention vaporware? I'd say the 7E7, 747-500 and 747-600 are pretty good examples of that."

Not quite. While Boeing's marketing arm may have used them in that fashion, all were (in the case of the 7E7 - "IS") serious candidates for launch. Extensive design work went into the 747-500/600X but no airline then (in 1996-7) wanted to pay over $200 million USD for a design based on a 30-year old model.

"Airbus has lost about a year or so maybe two on the 7E7. That's a while."

It's longer than than that. Boeing was conducting the basic R&D that led to both the Sonic Cruiser and the 7E7 (Project Yellowstone) since the mid-90's, about the same time Airbus started serious work on the A3XX.

"Airbus is already outselling Boeing and they having a very comprehensive lineup, so why would they need to design a rival for the 7E7? The 7E7 is about as big as their A330."

Airways6max, obviously, you've read next to nothing about the 7E7.

"I'm not sure Airbus needs to respond just yet to the 7E7. The 332 is selling very well and the detailed performance stats of the 7E7 suggest that 7E7 & 332 might be competitive with the 7E7 having a slight edge. Airbus might do well to milk 332 sales in the meantime."

True in part. The A332 will continue to sell for a time, based on commonality and if/when Airbus cuts its' price relative to the 7E7. But are you referring to the 7E7 performance stats as quoted by Airbus? I think you may be. Their spin shows only a slight 7E7 advantage but you've got to wonder how true that can be when:
1. The A332's over 15 year old airframe, based largely on the much older A300's, has vastly less composite construction than the all-new 7E7 and should be a lot heavier.
2. If Boeing adopts the 'bleedless' engines talked about, it will likely be difficult to adapt to the A330 without systems revisions, according to prior threads.

Boeing's gunning for a 15-20% improvement over the 767, which was roughly comparable to A330 economics. So I'd think the 7E7 will have a significant advantage if it meets projections. I think Airbus must design an all-new airplane, as well.






 
Qb001
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:56 am

If this is true, it goes against what this Airbus salesman - what's his name again - said in a recent interview that putting new engine technology will make the 332 competitive with the 7E7.

On the other hand, there is definitely a gap in Airbus' offering between the 321 and the 332. A "Next Generation" 310 (332 like wings, new engines, maybe FBW) could probably fill that gap for a reasonable price tag.
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
 
lehpron
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:03 pm

"Can Airbus afford to work on the A380 and design a 7e7 rival?"

They are not going to go against it now; if they do it will be after both companies have saturated the marketplace with monopolies; the a380 will own the 747's turf and 7E7 will take over a300 position cuz it is NEWER.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 12:52 pm

"If this is true, it goes against what this Airbus salesman - what's his name again - said in a recent interview that putting new engine technology will make the 332 competitive with the 7E7."

And that was my point; it was an AIRBUS SALESMAN making the claim, the way Boeing 3 1/2 years ago claimed the newer-tech A380 had no significant advantages over their 747X, which had basically the same systems as the -400. Did any of you really believe that? NO! We've got the flip side of that same argument here. Airbus might get the engines, more likely if they're not of the 'bleedless' type but then what do they do about the significantly greater weight of the older A330 airframe, not to mentioned the more advanced 7E7 aerodynamics. The engines alone WON'T cut it! They'll narrow the performance gap but that's all. There will still be a significant difference provided Boeing's projections hold up. The 7E7 will be 50% composites, an unprecented total. It should be and must be a lot lighter than other aircraft its' size, that has a lot to do with how it should be a lot more efficient. This is why I keep insisting that Airbus will ultimately HAVE to go all the way to a new design to truly compete, otherwise the law of diminishing returns (sales) will eventually overtake the A332, even if it gets 'tweaked'.

 
planemaker
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:03 pm

AvObserver:

"otherwise the law of diminishing returns (sales) will eventually overtake the A332, even if it gets 'tweaked'.

It will be very interesting to see what actually happens and how far Airbus goes to "mitigate" against the diminishing returns.

As Airbus has said, their first move will be to drastically undercut the 7E7 in price, and by an equal or greater amount than the expected operational savings of the 7E7. So, how long will that keep Airbus customers away from ordering the 7E7? And does it buy them enough time to design a potential 3E3?

With the way advances in design and manufacturing are progressing, the lead that the 7E7 has may not loom as large in a couple of years as it does today.

Of course, all speculation on my part.

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
N79969
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:05 pm

Airbus has to respond, at least in word, to the 7E7. This is not surprising

Sure Boeing did not build the 747-500/747-600/Sonic Cruiser etc; But BCAG has to demonstrate that the multi-billion dollar investments will actually generate a return.

I agree with Cfalk. When you don't have to risk your own money (or existence), you can come up with all kinds of nifty products.


 
gigneil
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:14 pm

Ugh.

Could we possibly discuss the nifty products for once, and what ideas Airbus might have, as opposed to the politics of the products? Nobody here is actually qualified to discuss any of them and the throwing of newspaper articles is getting tiresome.

I do like a good political discussion, but its permeated every thread and makes us all lose sight of the fact that we love airframes of all kinds and have a fondness in our heart for our hometown carriers.

The A330-200 is an amazing airframe, and the technologies developed for the A380 could easily be used to develop a new plane like it.

The 7E7 is going to be something, too. Expect the Japanese to get it going here RSN. The Board did authorize BCAG to offer it to them a few months back.

N
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:14 pm

I'm sure Airbus will try and offer something to offset early sales of the shorter 7E7 version. Expect them to offer lots of pictures and concepts, but ultimately, it will just be an "attempt" to cost Boeing some money on early launch orders.

The stretched version won't be coming until 2010, and that is what will be the real comptetitor to the A330-200 (head to head).

As others have stated, I think it will take a clean sheet design, or they will be selling A330s at the same pace as they sell A340-300s today.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:56 pm

Let's face it folks.

I think Airbus has discovered a major problem where they don't have a true replacement for the A300B4 and A310 airliners. The A330-200 is too big and heavy a plane for the type of flights done by the A300B4 and A310.

What I'm guessing right now is that Airbus is working on a plane that uses the A300B4-600 fuselage but sports the A330 tail, A330 cockpit, and an all-new wing that is lighter and more aerodynamic than the A330 wing. However, because BAE Systems (who produces the wings for Airbus) are heavily tied up in the A380 program, don't expect the "Next Generation A300B" to be ready until at least 2009 or so.
 
Joni
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:57 pm


Airbus has looked a new 7e7 size product for a while now, and even offered one version ("335") to Lufthansa and SIA. It's not as if they're just now starting from an empty desk.

They can make a new nersion of the 332, which might have lower-weight structures and new engines. This would likely be a good match to the 7E7, particularly since it would likely be much cheaper to produce - being a variant of an existing model. It might even be possible to do a technically modest but "cost reduction" variant of the 332 that could sell for much less than a 7E7.
 
MD-11 forever
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 6:31 pm

@AvObserver:

When you say that:

" The 7E7 will be 50% composites, an unprecented total. It should be and must be a lot lighter than other aircraft its' size, that has a lot to do with how it should be a lot more efficient. "

...do you happen to remeber what some people here on the board asked for after the AA A300 crash? "Composites are dangerous!" and stuff like this...... Now the same people from the Boeing fraction prais this as the most advanced and efficient material. Ironic, isn't it?

Cheers, Thomas
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:54 pm

Looking at history, will the fact that the 7e7 will be available first really be that much of an advantage? If Airbus doesn't waste time, they could have an alternative available within a few years later... and looking at history:
A340 available before B777
B767 available before A332

How will this play out:
B7E7 available before A3E3 (for lack of a better name for it...)
Smile - it confuses people!
 
Moolies
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:13 pm

Althou Airus did manage to role out the A345 and A346 at the same time as developing the A380 they already did have the basic structure of the A340 wht the A343 and A342.

I think they will tinker with the A330 a little a try and pitch it to airlines, how ever the 7E7 seems very space age. The design of it is revolutionary. Dont forget thou, a few weeks ago some one from Airbus made a few scathing remarks at Boeing about the 7E7, refering to them as the competitor and saying I dont see why the are doing that there is already a plane just as capable called the A330, etc.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus To Discuss 7E7 Rival

Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:35 pm

A short / medium range A330 version can be ready before the 7E7 if Airbus wants so, I think.

A lighter, shorter wing / landing gears & new engines will be the main difference with existing models.

Lenght of fuselage / seat capasity can be trimmed to market demand. I think 332 size or a little shorter, giving 250-280 seats in a high density 2 class lay out.

Cost will be lower then 7e7, airlines already operation Airbus aircraft will be tempted by commonality.

A variant of the A300/310 seems unlikely, those aircraft are technological of an older generation and not competible with A320/330/340/380 series.





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