usair320
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What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:39 am

To me its SU because of all the soviet aircraft lost an they also lost an A310. the other one is(or was)Value jet. they lost a DC 9
 
Sydscott
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:40 am


Iraqi Airlines????  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
qqflyboy
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:41 am

Korean has got to be a top ten contender...
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
Sydscott
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:56 am


According to the lists of fatal accidents the top INDIVIDUAL Airlines with the most fatal crashes are

American 12
Indian Airlines 12
United 11
China Airlines 10
Turkish Airlines 9
US Airways 9
Phillipine 8
Garuda 8
Cubana 8
Korean 7
Pakistan 7
Air France 7
EgyptAir 7

And Qantas and Virgin Atlantic have 0, so I know who I'm flying with!!!!!

http://www.airsafe.com/ has a whole heap of good stuff.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:58 am

USAF?....god no, this was a bad one! Sorry, I apologize in every form and take everything back.
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
Cessna172RG
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:01 am

What about Aeroflot? I wonder what their figures are...
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
Sydscott
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:09 am


It said 21 for former Soviet Union Airlines on that website from memory. But no individual breakup.
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:10 am

I think it is not fair to include Aeroflot's pre-1991 crashes as then basically every crash is recorded under Aeroflot's name simply because they were the operator of all planes in the USSR.

It would only be fair if we take into account only of SU's crashes after 1991, e.g. the A310.

As for AA and UA, we can't say they are not safe though. Compare how many flights they have daily, how many take offs or landings per day and compare that to Indian Airlines, China Airlines or Turkish!

It is only justified if we take the ratio to the daily flights. KE seems to have cleared up its acts and I dare to say they are now a safe airline!
 
CO2BGR
Posts: 506
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:24 am

Just some facts:

Aeroflot lost at least one plane a year from 1962-1986
126 fatal accidents total

These numbers are comprable to all U.S. airlines combined durring the same time period. This would be a better comparison as Aeroflot opperated almost all flights in Russia/USSR.

No matter what airline you fly you are more likeiy to be killed in the drive to and from the airport than on your flights for your trip.
There are too many self indulgent weiners in this town with too much bloody money" Randal Raines- Gone in 60 Seconds
 
flykal
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:41 am

I always have to laugh to myself when I see any post along the lines of "How safe is X or Y airline..."

Of course, everyone simply looks at the numbers because the numbers tell everything. I hate to tell you, but there's a hell of a lot more to determining how safe an airline is by just simply looking at the numbers...

[Edited 2003-11-19 01:41:41]
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
Sydscott
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:11 am


Oh I don't know, I'm sure most airlines would want to minimise the number of people killed whilst on their airplanes. 0 would be a good goal to reach.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:16 am

And Qantas and Virgin Atlantic have 0, so I know who I'm flying with!!!!!

Hmm, comparing Qantas and Virgin to an airline that has (give or take) 1000 aircraft in the air on any given day.... yeah, that makes sense.  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
flykal
Posts: 423
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:23 am

0 would be a good goal to reach.

...and how can you reach 0? Subtract?

My point was for airlines that have numbers listed, those numbers may not necessarily reflect how "safe" that airline is. To reinterate, safety is more than just looking at how many accidents or incidents an airline has had. Look at QF for example, everyone thought they were invincible until they ran off the end of the runway at BKK...same for SQ.

And do we class cargo airlines/flights in this figure? Then you can add Fedex with a total of 15 fatal accidents. Or if we don't include cargo flights, then you can subtract 3 from KE and so on....see how unrealiable simply "numbers" are?
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
AirDude66
Posts: 180
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:31 am

FL lookss good on the surface.....

What lies below though......some know the truth. I still think LCC's are given slack as a result of the state of the economy and LCC's are less likely to fight against DHS. It ispolitical.
 
Olympus69
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Safety Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:37 am

Those bare numbers don't mean much when there is no indication of what period they cover, and also make no allowance for the relative size of the airline. However, you can't argue with perfection, and Qantas has been flying for what - 70 years or so? Virgin, on the other hand, has about a quarter the number of planes that Qantas has, and has been flying for a lot shorter time.
 
flykal
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:47 am

Good point Olympus69...and also there's a need to consider to some extent the flying conditions.

I've flown in Australia and in general, airports are large, clear of bad terrain and generally conditions are not adverse for domestic operations. Compare this to a country such as Canada, South America or South Korea (where I am now), for example, where you have runways taking 737's, A330's and F100's, that are built into the side of a mountain, are short in length, suffer regular windshear, snow, etc etc.

While I'm not trying to degrade the safety status of QF, nor make excuses for accidents, people should from time to time consider operating conditions and how these affect an airline.

[Edited 2003-11-19 02:48:28]

[Edited 2003-11-19 02:48:55]
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
miamix707
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:51 am

.. I knew cubana was gonna be in there. Negligence on the part of the cuban authorities is partly to blame in some accidents as it was on the Quito Ecuador Tu154 crash.
 
Sydscott
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:52 am


Flykal - 0 is easy to reach, YOU DONT HAVE A FATAL ACCIDENT!!!!!!!! Hello QF and Virgin. I'm sure everybody on this board has an opinion on the safest airline. Personally I prefer the one who has had the least number of planes crash and kill people.

Plus when you consider that all airlines SHOULD be doing the same number of inspections on their airlcraft, following roughly the same maintenace procedures, with roughly the same spare parts then the number of times their aircraft have dropped from the sky can help to form an opinion no matter how big their fleets are. Have you ever seen an airline executive get up and say "even though are plane crashed and killed X number of people, we are still doing pretty well because our other X number of aircraft are still up and flying." Give me a break. Korean Air certainly didn't say that after its Guam crash.

As for cargo airlines I dont think the website that I listed as my source counts them. It only counts passenger airlines which is what my figures are based on.

Olympus69 - Qantas was founded in 1920 which makes it 83 years old.
 
flykal
Posts: 423
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:57 am

Erm, you start with 0...you don't reach it.

And while I don't want to get into an argument with you Sydscott, over how to determine which airline is safe or not. You cannot seriously try to justify that an airline operating 800 aircraft for 60 years compared to an airline operating just 5 aircraft for 3 years should be subject to the same method of analyzing if they are safe or not?



[Edited 2003-11-19 03:09:11]
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:27 pm

there aren't too many airlines with the frequency and years of operations similar to the U.S. majors that haven't had fatal accidents. No fatal accidents in 2002 if I'm not mistaken, that's very impressive considering how many planes are taking off, landing, in the air at a given time. If you have an airline with 20 planes and you've had a couple of fatal accidents in a decade, that's unexcusable
 
Birdwatching
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:44 pm

Sydscott, your theory makes no sense.

Look at this example:
Airline A Has just started operations today, and on it's first flight the airplane crashes. Number of fatal accidents: 1.
Airline B has been around since 1926, has 1000 planes in the air today. They have had two crashes, both before 1940.
Number of fatal accidents: 2.

Now you tell me that Airline A is safer?
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
 
AirDude66
Posts: 180
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 12:49 pm

Awe come on,

Give the little guy the benefit of the doubt.

They are not as "experienced", you certainly would not hold them to the same scrutiny as other now.

At least that seems to be the gov't view.
 
KAL744
Posts: 359
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:09 pm

I think it's difficult to say an airlines safety record is worst or best. In my opinion just to count the accidents is not showing a true result. For example, Korean had a lot of accidents end of the 90s but nowadays it has improved it's safety level a lot and I think we can say it belongs to the safer airlines again. And even an airline has no accidents until now, I wouldn't count them as more safe than others.

Everyone keep in mind....The risk of having an accident or to die on the street is much higher than any airflight. And also on the so named "safest" airlines something can happen.

KAL744
fly Korean Air ....
 
kdonohue
Posts: 401
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:14 pm

It's interesting how when this topic comes up people only trot out airline's that have had fatal accidents, but some airlines, QANTAS one of them, have had other incidents/accidents that were serious despite the fact that no one lost their life.

I would say we don't know many unsafe airlines, because they have been lucky.
 
irishpower
Posts: 371
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:29 pm

Let's not forget that 2 of the American and 2 of the United accidents were deliberate--9/11/01.
 
mandala499
Posts: 6459
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:56 pm

Safety:
1. Exclude Non-Pilot Error Weather caused crashes. (No QF don't come clean on this while airlines with fatal crashes could be clean in this department!)
2. Exclude design failure incidents.
3. Exclude 3rd party caused incidents such as ATC error, pilots crashing onto the victim's planes, terrorist/hijacking.
4. Decide if the analysis will be done on a per trip or per seat trip or per seat km basis.
5. Put a risk value on the airline's operations in terms of weather, type, safety procedures, security risk, terrorist risks.

An unsafe airline is where incidents occur due to the fault of the airline or its staff/crew.

In Indonesia there are airlines that had never had a crash but I consider as not safe! Oversimplification, or using the number of crashes or fatalities skews the reality!

Consider:
Garuda with 8 fatal crashes over it's history. Fleet of 60 aircraft
Merpati with numerous crashes over it's history. Fleet of 60 aircraft
Mandala with crashes in its prop days, now uses 732s only and have had no fatalities since. Fleet of 15 aircraft
Bouraq, again, no crashes since the 732s came in. Fleet of 10 aircraft
Batavia, never crashed. Fleet of 5 - 7 aircraft.
Star Air, only incident was it slipped on a wet runway. Fleet of 6 aircraft.
Jatayu, no crashes, not non-fatal accidents. Fleet of 10 aircraft
Lion Air, 1 crash no fatalities due to equipment and pilot error. Fleet of 20 aircraft.

Now, who's the safest ? Who's the least safe?
Most would probably say Jatayu is safest with Garuda and Merpati as unsafe...

BUT, Jatayu's fleet breaks down often! PK-JGW breaks down every month at 1 airport only! Several of it's aircraft are flying on "borrowed time" with components missing.

Now, what do you think?

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
easyjet
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:57 pm

Oh please people...read the topic. It's which airline has the worst safety record, and not a blatant promotion for Qantas and what not other airline... Geez.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:59 pm

It's not just safety record, although Qantas is always mentioned here. (thanks to Rainman). It's about age of aircraft and MOST of all, how well an airline follows standard procedures. eg: the string os korean air accidents a few years ago where pilot error was implicated clearly shows a deficiency in THAT particular airline.
For me, I generally feel safer in a newer planes, although, as we know, they are just as likely to crash if the pilot makes a mistake.


Long Haul is the only way to go
 
flykal
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:00 pm

It's not just safety record, although Qantas is always mentioned here. (thanks to Rainman). It's about age of aircraft and MOST of all, how well an airline follows standard procedures

Two comments on this:

Firstly, I don't think you can always justify that aircraft age is a factor...just look at an airline like NW or AR who are still flying very old airplanes without any trouble.

Secondly, following standard procedures is obviously an important component in ensuring safety, but you need to firstly ensure those procedures are good. Take QF1 at BKK as a perfect example. The investigation found deficiencies in QF's standard procedures for operating in these conditions.
One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
 
Lionel
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:49 pm

Did anybody think about to compare the total number of flights with accidents?

Nigeria Airways had 3 events in 0.6 Million flights. Is it better than Swissair with 4 events in 3.2 Million flights?
 
Qantasclub
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:24 pm

I agree-the Bangkok incident was a very close call for QF. As for new planes, even SQ at Taipei was a reminder that 'glossy' airlines are also fallible to human error. I guess we just have to bow to the statistics which state that air travel is STILL the safest form of travel.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:35 pm

BA have got to be one of the safest - if you take it as since the BOAC days, and include BEA also, and all the subsidiaries - they have a hell of a record.

Two BOAC comets.
One BEA Trident
One BA Trident
One Loganair Shorts 360
One British Airtours 732.
One BA 741 lost on apron to ground fire in Iraq 1991

Then you look at how many planes they have, and how many cycles they fly per a/c per day - brings it into focus. Great safety record.

Can somebody give us a breakdown of all the China Airlines accidents? I'd be interested to know the figures.

Rgds,

CM
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
FDXmech
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:38 pm

>>>Then you can add Fedex with a total of 15 fatal accidents.<<<

Please show me your source. Fedex Expess (Falcon, 727, 737, 747, A300, A310, DC10, MD11) to the best of my knowledge has had 0 fatal accidents.

The small feeder aircraft I don't know. But to count these you need to include all commuter plane crashes to their affiliate pax airline.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Moolies
Posts: 476
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:53 pm

Its not that often the plane, quite often its human error.

Also how many flights a day does AA have to VF?
 
Lionel
Posts: 356
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:20 pm

China Airlines:

01.02.1969 China Airlines Douglas DC-3 24:24 Paku, Taiwan B-309

08.12.1970 China Airlines NAMC YS-11 14:31 Taipei, Taiwan B-156

11.21.1971 China Airlines Sud Aviation SE210 Caravelle 25:25 Penghu, Taiwan B-1852

02.27.1980 China Airlines Boeing 707-309C 2:135 Manila, Philippines B-1826

02.16.1986 China Airlines Boeing 737-218 13:13 Makung, Taiwan B-1870

10.26.1989 China Airlines Boeing 737-209 54:54 Hualein, China B-180

12.29.1991 China Airlines Boeing 747-2R7F 5:5 Wanli, Taiwan B-198

11.04.1993 China Airlines Boeing 747-409 0:396 Hong Kong, China B-165

04.26.1994 China Airlines Airbus A300B4-622R 264:271 Nagoya, Japan B-1816

02.16.1998 China Airlines Airbus A300-622R 196:196 Taipei, Taiwan B-1814

08.22.1999 China Airlines McDonnell Douglas MD-11 3:315 Hong Kong, China B-150

05.25.2002 China Airlines Boeing 747-209B 225:225 Taiwan Strait - off Penghu, Taiwan B-18255


 
hoons90
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:27 pm

FDXmech, If you include the C208 crashes, Fedex has a total of 14 fatal crashes.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?field=Operatorkey&var=737&cat=%1&sorteer=datekey&page=1
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
FDXmech
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:22 pm

Well I'm not including these. I'm talking about the Fedex trunk fleet flown by Fedex pilots. If you include the C208 fleet than include commuter ops for pax airlines aswell.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
A330323X
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RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:52 pm

Well I'm not including these. I'm talking about the Fedex trunk fleet flown by Fedex pilots. If you include the C208 fleet than include commuter ops for pax airlines aswell.

I think people are including the commuter ops in their numbers. For example, I believe the number 9 listed for US includes a Commutair B1900 crash in the early 1990's and this year's Air Midwest B1900 crash. And Commutair doesn't even operate as a USX carrier anymore.
I'm the expert on here on two things, neither of which I care about much anymore.
 
PBIflyguy
Posts: 190
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 1:47 am

RE: What Airline Has The Worst Saftey Record?

Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:58 am

nobody has mentioned WN. lots of planes, lots of cycles everyday.... and no mishaps .