a340pilot
Posts: 554
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OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:46 pm

Ok, just out of curiosity, how blind would you have to be to walk into a prop? This incedent happened in Van nuys, Ca. Think he had a few drinks before he boarded?  Smokin cool

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 290MF Make/Model: OMF Description: OMF-100 SYMPHONY
Date: 11/14/2003 Time: 2330

Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Serious Mid Air: N Missing: N
Damage: None

LOCATION
City: VAN NUYS State: CA Country: US

DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT STOPPED ON TAXIWAY G IN FRONT OF TOWER TO DISCHARGE A PASSENGER,
PASSENGER JUMPED OUT OF AIRCRAFT AND WALKED INTO THE PROPELLER, PROP STRUCK
LEFT ARM, AND PASSENGER SUSTAINED A BROKEN ARM, VAN NUYES, CA

INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 0
# Crew: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:
# Pass: 1 Fat: 0 Ser: 1 Min: 0 Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0 Unk:

WEATHER: UNK



OTHER DATA
Activity: Pleasure Phase: Standing Operation: General Aviation

Departed: VAN NUYS, CA Dep Date: Dep. Time:
Destination: VAN NUYS, CA Flt Plan: UNK Wx Briefing: U
Last Radio Cont: UNK
Last Clearance: UNK

FAA FSDO: VAN NUYS, CA (WP01) Entry date: 11/17/2003

http://65.54.246.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang=EN&lah=c566fefe284a6ef786292c1127494fa2&lat=1069230639&hm___action=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2efaa%2egov

best reguards,
a340pilot
Go! Canucks Go!
 
backfire
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:12 pm

It's surprisingly easy. Your brain becomes accustomed to the noise of the propeller, so your hearing fails to act as a warning. In addition, a spinning prop cannot easily be seen (which is why high-visibility stripes and colours are painted on them). It's a lethal combination.

When I was learning to fly, the first thing I was taught was never to walk forward when I exited the aircraft - always walk around the tail, precisely to avoid a prop-strike.
 
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scbriml
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Wed Nov 19, 2003 6:23 pm

Man, he's lucky to get away with just a broken arm! That could have been really messy!  Nuts
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
a340pilot
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:28 am

Oh yea, it definitely could be a mess, look what happens to birds!
Go! Canucks Go!
 
EdT
Posts: 28
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:37 am

Or look what recently happened to a deer... I can't recall the website, but it was posted in this forum... it was gruesome... This guy was really lucky!!!
 
grrtvc
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:38 am

Not to get too explicit but I recall NW/XJ, maybe Express I, about two or so years ago in MEM had a ramp worker walk into a prop while de-icing. Unfortunately she was killed instantly.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
 
FrequentFlyKid
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:43 am

Complaceny is one of the leading causes of work related injuries.
 
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Bruce
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:51 am

ONLY a broken arm??? How can you walk into a spinning prop and only get an arm broken? I would think it would rip the arm off at the very least....


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
PIA777
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:16 am

Look at what happened to te deer!!! heres the link http://www.bowzone.ca/modules.php?op=modload&name=phpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1489 . What were you saying about the nosie BACKFIRE? I didn't understand what you said.

-PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
fanofjets
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:13 am

I heard that this was a problem with the Ted Smith Aerostar, which has a door in front of the wing, right by the prop. I personally knew of someone who lost an arm to a spinning propeller.


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EMBQA
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:06 am

Grrtvc-

Almost correct........The Express I flight crew had started the #2 engine and asked for the GPU to be disconnected. On the Saab 340, ground power is connected behind the RH wing area. After disconnecting ground power the 'Rampie' stepped forward into the prop arch and was fatally injured. I read in the NTSB report that fatigue also played a part in this accident as the rampie killed was working this as a second job and had already had a long day of work at an other job. Very sad deal and it stuck in my mind every time I had GPU duties during my days as a mechanic.......even more so now that I see the aircraft involved in the accident everyday parked here in BNA at our hangar.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
AluminumShower
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 8:30 am

Wow! He must have been out of it to walk from behind the wing into the prop on a Saab 340. First there is the HEAT from the exhaust that will blast you in the face if you don't duck below it and then there is the actual height of the wing which forces you to bend over (uncomfortably for me) to walk under it into the prop area.

That's unfortunate about this ramp rat though... I know I had a close call with a J31 right there in BNA several years ago. I just wasn't paying attention.
 
AA777MIA
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:46 am

I remember vaguely an incident at AE involving some skiis. I think it was in ORD and the ramper had skiis in his/her hands and they got caught in the prop. They were also killed...
 
SunValley
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:51 am

A few years back, I witnessed a baggage cart roll into a QX Metro.
There was an aircraft sitting in front of the QX Metro, I think it was a SkyWest Emb120, and it was leavng the ramp, and the agents had left a cart sitting out without setting a brake. The QX SWM had started both engines, and was disconnected from the GPU, and was getting ready to leave, as it waited for the EMB120, and as the EMB120 powered and turned, the cart, took off rolling, and went right into the QX SWM #2 Engine. Was not a very pretty site.
 
a340pilot
Posts: 554
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:56 am

IM not too sure of the aircraft that this guy walked into, was it this type a saab340
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Janne Laukkonen

or was it another type of plane? I don't quite understand the coding in the FAA reports! A picture would be great so I can see where and how he walked into it  Smile


Best regards,
a340pilot
Go! Canucks Go!
 
a340pilot
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:22 am

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:06 am

I searched for a picture and this is what came up



http://www.aviatorsale.com/pix1718x1/
Go! Canucks Go!
 
Sinlock
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:35 am

This reminds me of back when I was getting my A&P.

I was on fire watch with a crew of students who were doing a runup on a C-421. A fellow student drop his notebook and it's papers went flying in the the #1 prop that was running wide open. Needless to say, the student went chaseing after the papers. I was able to tackle the student with both of us stoping about 2 feet short of the prop. After the engines were shut down the guy got pissed off at me because his knee got skined.

I'll just let the next one keep walking.
 
DL328
Posts: 33
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:01 am

It makes sense now, thanks A340pilot for finding a picture. I'm guessing, by his injury, he hit his arm against the edge of the prop. Anyone else have any thoughts?
 
EMBQA
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:18 am

FYI......The 'rampie' killed in the MEM accident was a woman.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
EMBQA
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:25 am

Here is the NTSB Report on the accident. http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20001211X11475&ntsbno=MIA99LA026&akey=1

Always remember....BE safe. We work in an industry that can get us hurt or killed if we are not careful.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:33 am

During my ramp training, we were told of all of the horror stories about the spinning props....

The story about the person who was killed in MEM by walking into a prop.
There was the story about an XJ employee who was handing paperwork to the pilots through the whisky hatch had them blown away and when she followed after them she put her hand into the arc of the spinning prop.
There was another incident with American Eagle a few years back in ORD where an employee who wanted to commit suicide simply walked into the spinning propellor on an ATR.
In any situation, its very gruesome......

On the ramp you have to be aware of your surroundings. Not at my station while working, but as a passenger at other airports, I've witnessed several questionable procedures that were short-cutting safety. Not a wise choice.
 
PIA777
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:36 am

But how can you not notice a SPINNING PROP!!!!? I don't get it, its sooo noisy and windy. Only a dumb person would not notice it.


-PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
DL328
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:38 am

Has anything like this happened with jets? I know it has in the military.
 
EMBQA
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:55 am

PIA777-

EASY.....Lets see: Daydreaming, Distracted, Stress, Rushing, Not Following Company Procedures, Weather Conditions, Taking Shortcuts, Not Following Aircraft, Safety Zones, Tripping, Slipping, Icey Ramps, Dark Ramps, Lack of Situational Awareness.......etc.... Well guys, did I forget anything...???

Trust me....I've worked around turboprops for 8+ years...it can happen VERY easy.......and very fast.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
ERFly
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:57 am

Someone was mentioning about the heat generated from a spinning turboprop engine. On the King Airs I fly, we cart start them everytime. The connection for the GPU is right under the right engine cowling, forward of the wing. As long as you feather the props after start, the heat won't be blown so far back, and it is possible to disconnect. Still, it's not a job I want.

I've also let people out of the King Air while the engines were running (feathered props again). Even behind the wing, it's still pretty warm. I was just out there to make sure that no one walked into the props.
 
PIA777
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:58 am

EMBQA-


How can it be prevented then?
GO CUBS!!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6187
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:59 am

When you work all day around aircraft it can be easy to ignore your surroundings. Wearing a headset, the noise can blend in. It is especially noticable during engine start-up and shut-down. During start-up, the props are feathered at angle where they make relatively little noise cutting through the air when spinning. Same on shut down as it can take upward of a minute for the propellor to wind down once the power is shut off.

Yes it has happened around around turbofan aircraft, although it is a rare occurance. If you are inside the danger zone (about 15-20 in front of a running turbofan you can get ingested. This is more or less true with the widebody engines which are extremely powerful ( 777, DC-10, 747)
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:04 pm

People no longer think of propellers. They are just, how can I explain, not understood any longer.

I know many people that will not walk between the props of idle aircraft at the Pima Air Museum, even though the engines have not turned in 30 years or more. I myself will not walk within 20 feet of any aircraft engine, even those in a museum, until I know it's dead. The newer big engines, I'll want to see a dead chicken fall out the intake before I'll get within 100 feet.

The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
sjoic
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:26 pm

DL328~
Yes it can happen with turbofans as well. The 737 has been nicknamed the widow maker sucking in almost 30 people according to what I have heard. Wing mounted jet engines also pose a huge risk. Unfortunatly, people get focused on one thing (like putting a cone down, or unpluging a GPU) and are in a hurry. It does not pay to hurry and make mistakes. They may be seen as stupid mistakes, but when a plane is late, or operates unusually, some people tend to get thrown off from their normal routines. Sometimes normal routines can lead to accidents. I have witnessed two incidents, luckily each ended well and the two people were stopped. One almost walking into a 737 engine, and the other a Metro engine. Being in a smaller airport there is a mix of props and jets, and multiple airlines crossing each others paths, each focused on their own airline. This is a huge danger. No matter how much productivity our manager wants out of us, running on short crews, late flights, cold weather, we all go at a normal pace, there is no room for errors. Jeff
 
a340pilot
Posts: 554
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:28 pm

I think that the reason people will avoid a prop in a museum is just a natural reaction, and a thought going through your head what "COULD" happen if the airplane for some strange reason fired itself up, and what people have seen on TV and in movies or even being read in this forum! I for one will avoid a prop in a museum just by natural reaction. I don't plan to do it, it just happens! As for turbine engines in a museum I will walk in front of it. Anyone else avoid a prop in a museum or am I a minority?

Best regards,
a340pilot

Go! Canucks Go!
 
GulfstreamGuy
Posts: 625
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:01 pm

I have mentioned it before on this forum, but I lost a good friend here in LIT. He was the Continental Express station manager who was killed by the spinning prop of an ATR42-500. One of my co-workers and me had to cover his body before the passengers could deplane the aircraft. I could never have imagined I would EVER see something so horrific happen to a friend.  Crying

Even though it sounds monotonous...you just have to be DAMN careful out here on the ramp.

Here is the NTSB's report on that tragic day.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X19260&key=1

GulfstreamGuy
"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. " -Jimmy Buffett
 
MxCtrlr
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:17 pm

One of the first things I was taught in flight school was to treat a propeller with due respect - ALWAYS TREAT A PROPELLER AS IF IT WAS LIVE UNTIL YOU ARE POSITIVE IT ISN'T!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool
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masseybrown
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:29 pm

The Cleveland Federal Reserve Bank runs a little airline at BKL at night, flying cancelled checks around the Midwest. With a very small hub type operation (4 aircraft?) they unload, sort, reload the checks. Sad to say there have been two fatal accidents with people walking into propellers over the past 20 or so years. What is trouble in the day time is even worse at night.
 
ted747
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:53 pm

AIRCRAFT STOPPED ON TAXIWAY G IN FRONT OF TOWER TO DISCHARGE A PASSENGER, PASSENGER JUMPED OUT OF AIRCRAFT AND WALKED INTO THE PROPELLER, PROP STRUCK LEFT ARM, AND PASSENGER SUSTAINED A BROKEN ARM, VAN NUYES, CA

According to the original post this was not a ramp worker but a passenger - why on earth would they let a passenger disembark an aircraft with the props still going! That is absolutely crazy and asking for trouble. The situations described with ground crew is a different story but a passenger should never be allowed off an aircraft with props still rotating...why would the pilot allow this??
 
j_hallgren
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:03 pm

Based on the broken arm, would it be possible that the prop was only spinning a bit faster than...maybe a second hand on clock...or similar? That is, almost stopped but not 100%...otherwise, one would expect more severe injuries, as described above....
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
MD-90
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:24 pm

It's a shame more airlines don't paint prop clearence lines on the sides of the aircraft (they're not very photogenic, unfortunately). Especially needed on high wing planes like Dash-8s.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:06 am

Even those prop clearance lines won´t help. Before I became an A&P ( and AME) I used to work as a rampie on the different airports in Berlin, Germany. I give one example as seen on ATR´s: The cargo door on this type is forward on the left side just aft of the cockpit, the passenger door left aft. Passengers, esp. the rushing business class type would see their luggage being unloaded in front and run forward beneath the wing, through the the prop arc (prop fortunately stopped) to get heir suitcase before I could catch them, so that they wouldn´t have to wait at the luggage claims conveyor. Jet ways were not built to keep passengers dry, but to keep them away from the dangerous ramp enviroment.
A former coworker lost an arm when he got sucked into a 737-200 JT8D engine. He was an experienced mechanic, but he just let himself be distracted for a moment. They were doing a trim run with open cowlings and he approached the running engine to make some adjustmentsd through the safe access corridor ( approach from front under the centerline of the A/C, then at right angle out to the engine, staying within the marked area. He accidentally dropped his headset, which fell in front of the access corridor. He grabbed forward to get his headset and got cought by the suction. Only the fact that it was an old JT8D engine with the intake guide vanes before the fan saved his life.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
redngold
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:44 am

I think the most recent Bankair accident at BKL was last January. A guy walked into the live prop of an MU-2 and was killed instantly. The coroner suggested it was suicide.

Also, didn't someone walk into the live prop of a USAirways Express (Piedmont, probably) DH-8 at DCA last year? She was killed, too.

redngold
Up, up and away!
 
a340pilot
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 10:22 am

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:37 pm

I hate to bring up an old topic from the past, but i just found this picture and i have to ask...................


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jay Piboontum




Is this the Best way or the safest way to stop a prop from rotating? In my opinion it isn't!

Best reguards,
a340pilot
Go! Canucks Go!
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:45 pm

What is the big deal.........? The engine has already been placed in 'fuel off' and is all but done spinning. I've done that hundreds of times on our BE1900 and Saab 340's......and most airlines require someone standing near the prop when its close to the boarding door.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
a340pilot
Posts: 554
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:50 pm

"What is the big deal.........? The engine"

Hence why i said IN MY OPINION!!!


Do people actually read the comments before they respond? Just curious!  Big grin

best reguards,
a340pilot
Go! Canucks Go!
 
SlamClick
Posts: 9576
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:58 pm

Saw it happen at CRQ many years ago. Aero Commander taxiied onto the transient ramp and a waiting passenger walked up forward along the right side, under the wing and into the prop which had not been shut down yet. It remains the worst sound I've ever heard in my life.

I believe that the victim survived, saved by a small piece of luck. He was struck by the ascending blade and from behind the prop arc. If you think about it, this means the trailing edge of the prop blade began to hit him before the leading edge did, and because it was from below, it tended to knock him up and away, instead of pulling him into it.

On any active ramp, airplane noises are just about constant and even people who do know their way around can get complacent. Like so many others I take exaggerated precautions around props and jet intakes. I used to work in sawmills and consider the commuter ramps to be at least as dangerous.

Lastly, maybe the most dangerous thing of all would be the attitude that there must be something wrong with someone who could get injured in this way. That is the foundation of the always-erroneous "can't happen to me" syndrome. I truly mean no offense, but I would urge you to assume that it could, and to take exaggerated steps to see that it does not. I used to feel silly ducking while walking under a Huey rotor that was seven feet above my head, but how many times does something have to save your life before it becomes worthwhile?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
meister808
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:20 pm

About avoiding props, even on museum pieces.. yep, certainly. I guess, as a pilot, it is just instilled in me that that thing makes quite a mark if it hits you. Even on preflight of the Pipers that I fly, I limit the time that I am standing in the prop arc, and try to limit extremities(mainly arms) to that area. I certainly keep my head out of the arc at all times.

However, that said, the stats and the stories do prove that it is really easy to forget and just walk into a prop. I recall reading a story about someone having a pet on the ramp next to an airplane that was turning and burning. I believe the dog took off after a bird out on the airport and the owner gave chase, right through the prop. The owner was killed.

Also a note to pilots: Keep in mind that a propstrike can happen, and be very alert of where your engines are if there is anyone on the ramp at all. Sure, restarting can be a pain and isn't too good on fuel, but if safety means shutting down an engine to keep a safe margin between a person and a prop, do it. A pound or two of fuel and a checklist are certainly the better alternative to a bloody mess.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3143
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:31 pm

People... it can happen to anyone on the ramp who is not paying attention.

the ramp is a dangerous place with those powerfull props and blasting jets, it should be common sence to always mind where your going.



CanadianNorth
Way to go, nice and slow, never late, 748!
 
sunilgupta
Posts: 768
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2000 12:15 pm

RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:49 pm

Has anything like this happened with jets? I know it has in the military.

http://www.airextreme.de/jetengine_.avi

Sunil
 
User avatar
JeffM
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RE: OUCH!.......Watch Out For That Prop!

Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:24 pm

I love that video. There is more to it. The full version (we used in training while I was in the Navy), shows the guy falling out after the pilot secures what was left of the #1 engine. He falls out, lands on his feet, wobbles a little, and then collapses. I think the steel toe of his boot got caught on an inlet temp probe and kept him from becoming hamburger. His helmet, goggles, etc, fodded the engine right off, that's where all the sparks came from.

Jeff

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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos