JU101
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Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:40 am

I would really like to know what people think of the future of the Boeing 717.


What customers or potential customers did Boeing ask, when they were thinking of the 717 in the predevelopment phase?

In the development phase, i am sure that it was cost efficient because it used research and design material from older Douglas aircraft models. Nevertheless do you think the 717 was specifically created to replace the vast DC-9 fleet? Was it designed too late?

Do you view them redundant, since they are in the same capacity as the Boeing 737-500 and 737-600?

Should the line be discontinued? and why?

Any info or comment are definately welcome!!!
 
Korg747
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Of Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:49 am

I think what's going to make the 717 profitable for Boeing is NWA'S final descion on replacing there DC-9S with 717s that is if it happens and Hopefully AA would too. I think that is enought for the 717 to look good.
Please excuse my English!
 
Mark_D.
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Of Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:00 am

What Korg747 said!  Smile


Technically the plane seems to be more than fine, even kind of a passenger and airline pleaser. Though it hasn't yet hit a critical mass in the marketplace and those two aforementioned carriers are the likeliest candidates who can even come close to making that happen.


I hope the plane's production has a future -- I figure it deserves it. Heck if Embraer has some real problems getting their E170 (and E190) out the door then that can only brighten its prospects.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Of Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:43 am

I believe the 717 is an out-dated animal, kept for political reasons in the McD/Boeing merger.

The shorthaul market place is about A319/A320/737's, and if you want smaller you go for something like the Embraer 190.

Like the A318 I expect, the 717 will not have a place, and will find its way into aircraft history soon.

It's sad, but then it has had a very good run in its various forms.

Rich.
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:16 am

If the Star Alliance places an order for the 717-300 I think we will see an improvement of the 717 fortunes.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:29 am

A dismal failure. They (BCAC) have no idea what to do with this orphan. It continues the losing fortunes of the original DC-9's and MD-80/90's.
 
lehpron
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:40 am

Boeing's failure and McDonnel Douglas' success.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
AA7573E
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:04 am

I don't understand these 717 threads that speculate on AA replacing their MD-80 fleet with 717s. Why would AA do that? They just canned all the 717s they picked up in the TWA deal. Capacity reductions are the current replacement for the MD-80's, followed by the CRJ additions. Somewhere down the road yes, AA will have to replace the MD-80, but if you are looking for that move to save the B717 line, then you might as well go ahead and board up the factory, b/c it is not going to happen.

As far as NWA, until a DC-9 falls out of the sky, they are not going to rush to replace. Every time one of those lifts off, it is pure profit - i.e. no costs associated with financing the plane makes your operating costs a hell of a lot lower. When they do get around to replacing them, will they go Abus or Boeing? I think every major acquisition they have made in the past 5+ years has been Abus, so I would not pick them to buck that trend and go with a new cockpit, a new hull, and all the associated costs in terms of bringing in a new aircraft type. I would expect the to go Abus, it just makes too much sense not to.

In that regard, I would say the 717 program has not been as big a success as it was hoped to be, but I would not call it a failure.

I would not call the DC-9 or MD-80 programs a failure by any extent, seeing as how they are some of the most heavily utilized aircraft in history, with outstanding saftey records, positive passanger feedback, extreme longevity, and generally low operating costs. I am not going to rattle of a list of carriers that use(d) these aircraft, but I am quite confident it would fill a lot of space.



[Edited 2003-11-20 23:09:16]
See you up front!
 
srbmod
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:33 am

The reason why AMR dumped the TWA 717s is that TWA was paying very lousy rates (think pawnshop rates) on the a/c, and AMR could not get the rates that they wanted.

The 717 cannot really be called a failure or a success just yet. If the Star Alliance order goes elsewhere, look to see Boeing deliver all current orders for it and then shut the line down. I mean they have sold more 717-200s than 737-600s, so I would say that it more successful than the 736. If the Star Alliance does order the a/c, then the future is bright, and the program will be a success.
 
tekelberry
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 7:58 am

The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.

AA isn't looking at the 717 to replace the MD80, but they may start looking for a 100 seat replacement for the F100 (Gerard Arpey, Dallas Daily News). The 717 would be a perfect fit. Eventually, AA's SP80s will be replaced by the 737NGs. I emphasize eventually as the SP80s won't be replaced for a very very long time.

[Edited 2003-11-20 23:58:40]
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:14 am

AFAIK, or see it, StarAllaince is rather ordering Airbus, so the 318 would be pretty interesting.

I flew on a MD80 which was cool, although I kept hitting my head on the wall, because the diameter of the cabin is too small even for my little length...

It's also one of the most beautiful AC in the world, and it was pretty successful time ago.

I think the 717 is pretty good AC, old school design combined with modern flight equipment in the front office.

But there might be a big market for the 717, hopefully...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:18 am

Could it be that the 717 has not taken off yet because many airlines are not doing very good financially, and are not in position to buy new aircraft.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
patroni
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:28 am

Two weeks ago I flew for the first time on the Boeing 717 (I opted for AirTran LGA-ATL-HOU rather than the boring CO 737-500 out of JFK  Big grin ). Well, what can I say? The 717 is a very nice aircraft, extremely quiet and I found it very comortable. So if the Star Alliance would go for a 717 order, I would be a happy customer Big grin

Cheers,
Tom
 
L1011Fan
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:29 am

I don't think it's a failure but rather a victim of the economy. It has a lot going for it. Aside from the economy, I find it hard to believe that more airlines haven't purchased it. I look forward to trips in the 717. I hope Star purchases the 713 as that would be a huge boost for the program.

I agree with the above posters; NW won't buy the 717 unless their DC-9's start falling out of the sky. I'm sure NW doesn't care what I think, but my $$$ is spent buying tickets on an airline who has better equipment than the DC9 (but that's another topic altogether). On the other hand, if NW had 717s.....

I don't understand why AA would want the 717 as an MD80 replacement. That would be a downgrade in terms of pax capacity. Unless, of course, Boeing launches the 713. The 73G is a better replacement for the MadDogs.

 
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Richard28
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:32 am

Patroni,

It is extremely quiet - unless you're sitting in the back, with an engine smack bang outside your window!

Worst seat on any shorthauler  Sad ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!
 
AirDude66
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:42 am

The 717 is the after birth of a ValuJet / Douglas venture called the MD95.

Valujet invested a lot in the engineering, planning and development of this aircraft for them. It was not until after the AirTran merger when Airtran could not obtain financing that it was opened up on a wider scale. TWA placed an order which aided AirTran in securing financing.

As for the Aircraft - you get what you pay for. The fresh air is a great travel experience and it is quieter. The interior selected by AirTran is very cheap and probably no tlast long before looking bad. The primary structure is modeled after the DC9 but with more composite materials. The skin is so thin you risk a ding just tapping on the side. I would hate to see this thing hit a hail storm!

I do not think this is a long runner.

There was supposed yo be an option of ER center fuel tank but that was a disaster because fully fueled - it can not be booked to capacity without being overweight so the ER version was abandoned.

Extended range is really the only thing that would have made it desirable in the long haul.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:59 am

The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.

Exactly, so let's grasp the concept folks.. We've discussed it many times that this is the reason for AA dumping the 717.

flew on a MD80 which was cool, although I kept hitting my head on the wall, because the diameter of the cabin is too small even for my little length...

"Little length", so I'm assuming your less than 6'1? If so, I'm 6'1 and have no problems with the MD-80's size. Were you swaying your head back and forth while sitting at a window seat?  Big grin If so, you'll have that problem on any airliner.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:05 am

The interior selected by AirTran is very cheap and probably no tlast long before looking bad.

Not entirely accurate. Just a fun fact. Did you know that the AirTran 717 interior was selected by Valujet's COO at the time of order. (Lewis H. Jordan).

If somebody would like to see proof, Please email me and I will send you a picture of the VJ Tag under the AirTran 717 seat cushion. (Sorry, A.net members only).
Puhdiddle
 
AirDude66
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:11 am

Not true......

I worked for AirTran in 1998/1999 when the interior was being selected.

When the aircraft was in testing. It flew with I believe 3 different seat styles before the final selection was made.
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:15 am

Airdude, I have been told repeatedly, high and low that this was Valujet's selection. Maybe they were testing DIFFERENT other interiors, but they stuck with this one.
Puhdiddle
 
lgbguy
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 12:59 pm

I'm glad to see a generally positive attitude toward MD95 (717).

I'm around the airplane a lot and know the folks who build the aircraft at Long Beach very well.

They put their heart and soul into its production, it is a labor of love for them. They take great pride in building this fine aircraft and hope that more orders are made.

The MD95 is an extremely fine aircraft and everyone that works with it, flight crews, ground personnel, and passengers alike all love the aircraft. Every pilot I speak with just gets a big smile on his or her face when asked "how do you like flying the MD95". No one has ever had a bad word to say about it.

So lets hope many more orders come in for this fine Douglas (Boeing) airplane.

Mike
lgbguy
 
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:58 pm

Could it be that the 717 has not taken off yet because many airlines are not doing very good financially, and are not in position to buy new aircraft.

Truer words could not be spoken. The customers who are most likely to buy this aircraft are not in the market to buy right now.
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:18 pm

Enough of this 'it's the best aircraft ever conceived, built and delivered'---but it just won't sell because of the market. And please, don't pander us with this 'hear and soul' into every aircraft. Airplanes are built soley on conformance to requirements--nothing more or less.

The market has spoken. It has said no. Even 200 more sales won't make it break even.
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:28 pm

If the Star Alliance does not order the 717-300 my bets would be on the EMB-190. The A318 is just to heavy.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
lgbguy
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:45 pm

Greg,

I take great offense to your comment as I would never pander anyone. If you would come to Long Beach and meet the people that build this wonderful aircraft, I think you would see that what I say is true.

The market has not spoken as of yet, the MD95 still lives on and hopefully will continue to do so despite critics such as yourself. The aircraft continues the fine Douglas tradition of building tough reliable airplanes that will soldier on for the next 40 years and beyond as does the rest of the Douglas family of aircraft.

So please refrain from making such comments as I do not appreciate them.

Mike
lgbguy

 
AirDude66
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:52 pm

I would be surprised if these aircraft hit the 20 year mark. They are just not built that well. They are lighter and extremely efficient - compomise had to be made somewhere to make it affordable and accomplish those items.

Are these still listing in the $25m range?
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:57 pm

Airdude66:

Which aircraft are you speaking of?
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
steph001
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 12:07 am

The B717 is not often seen in Europe, but there are some carriers that opted for it. One of them is Olympic Airways , another is Spanair. Spanair has a fleet of MD80 and Airbusses CID=spanair&MOID=7_3_uk&PID=1> and is a member of Star Alliance. They may well buy some further B717, I guess.
 
tokolosh
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:05 am

I was just wondering, is the 717 only built in the U.S.? I remember MD (or was it only Douglas at the time) made a deal in China to produce DC9s there. Are these aircraft still being produced in China, did this tie-up have any influence in the decision to continue with the 717 under Boeing? Just a thought ...
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:50 am

Yes the 717 is still made in the USA. However many of components are made in other countries. The wings are made in Canada, the fuselage in Italy, the nose section in Korea and the engines in Germany. The program where MD narrow bodies were to be produced in China was also known as the Trunkliner program. Only a few aircraft were produced before the program was cancelled.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Greg
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:19 am

Again, it's not an 'emotional' issue....this "wonderful" aircraft is not selling (maybe it's not so wonderful???) And as I stated, even 200 more would not make it profitable--it's a losing program. I'd say keep it rolling if it would break even (for no other reason to keep folks employed)--but it's driving down share value every month they have to write off the costs of maintaining the facility.

Shut it down. Sell the land. As stated by Boeing, the land value greatly exceeds any profits that could be derived from the 717 in the foreseeable future.

Again, it may make money for it's owners, but not it's manufacturer. Put the money into the 7e7.
 
asianguy767
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:30 am

I think its a great plane but the timing is just off...besides a NW and/or AA, star alliance order i wonder if MH will consider it as a replacement ffor its B737-400 fleet now that it reduced capacity domestically thanks to AirAsia?
 
tokolosh
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:56 am

LMP737,
Really interesting information you gave. The 717 is really an international plane!
Greetings
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
LMP737
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:03 am

Tokolosh:

Guess it shows that the lines are somewhat blurred when it comes to trade between nations.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
KaiGywer
Crew
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:11 am

Kinda off topic, but does the B717 have the same problem as the MD90, being to light up front? I remember when SK first got the MD90, they needed 3 people in the cockpit in order to taxi it empty, due to the low weight up front. This was later fixed by putting in ballast up front.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
tokolosh
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:18 am

LMP737,
Good point. It kinda destroys these Boeing vs Airbus arguments.  Smile
Did the chicken or the egg get laid first?
 
jeckPDX
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:45 am

I doubt AA will opt for the 717 for two reasons.One, it operates the 737-800 which would share commonality with a 737NG that would be a more likely replacement. Two, AA inherited 717's from TWA and chose not to operate them and they were sold to AirTran.
As far as NWA is concerned, I don';t see them opting for the 717. Once again where cockpit commonality and savings come into play, NW already operates many A319/320 family aircraft, so when they do decide to repalce the DC-9s (probly not for awhile) it will most likely be with more A320 family aircraft (A318?). It is just not financially feaseable for either airline to invest in would it would take to operate a new aircraft type that is vastly different.
Don't get me wrong I like the 717 but it economically does not make sense for Boeing right now.
JECKpdx
"Beer is proof that God Loves us and wanted People to be Happy" - Ben Franklin
 
Thrust
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RE: Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?

Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:07 am

First of all, the Boeing 717 is not "outdated." While the Boeing 717 may be a reincarnation of the DC-9, it's BMW-Rolls Royce engines are incredibly fuel-efficient compared to the old PW engines. It can serve as an excellent replacement for the AA F-100s, because they are bigger and much more fuel-efficient. In addition, they are Rolls-Royce powered like the Fokkers, which is good for American, considering that the majority of their aircraft use Rolls Royce engines. But, I do agree that were the Boeing 717-300 ordered, it might serve as a good replacement for the MD-80(By the way, just how big of a stretch on the aircraft's length are we talking about). While the 717, regardless of its size, clearly does not have the length of the MD-80, what it does have that the MD-80 doesn't are engines over twice the fuel-efficiency of the PW engines on the MD-80. Were the 717 to match the MD-80 eventually in length, there is no doubt the MD-80 would be toppled out of the sky rapidly.
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